rusty69 Posted April 2, 2018 Report Share Posted April 2, 2018 (edited) The recent heavy rain has reminded me that a couple of our window frames have started to leak between frame and cabin side. I removed them all 19 years ago, and in my ignorance used silicone and stainless steel self tapping screws. Now 19 years aint bad, but I hope to improve on that this time and go for 30 years. I have decided (through reading the forum) that I will use butyl rubber window tape,if I can get the windows out ok. The question , though, should I continue with the self tapers,or would there be any benefit from tapping all the holes and use stainless steel machine screws instead? Thanking you. Edited April 2, 2018 by rusty69 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted April 2, 2018 Report Share Posted April 2, 2018 No idea which is better on the screw types, but to get the frames out a multi-tool would be your friend. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted April 2, 2018 Report Share Posted April 2, 2018 4 minutes ago, rusty69 said: The recent heavy rain has reminded me that a couple of our window frames have started to leak between frame and cabin side. I removed them all 19 years ago, and in my ignorance used silicone and stainless steel self tapping screws. Now 19 years aint bad, but I hope to improve on that this time and go for 30 years. I have decided (through reading the forum) that I will use butyl rubber window tape,if I can get the windows out ok. The question , though, should I continue with the self tapers,or would there be any benefit from tapping all the holes and use stainless steel machine screws instead? Thanking you. If you have managed to get them to seal for nineteen years then you are a window God and we should be doing it your way!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty69 Posted April 2, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, mrsmelly said: If you have managed to get them to seal for nineteen years then you are a window God and we should be doing it your way!! 2 out of 12 (not including portholes) have slight leaks. Whats the normal time between leaks then? What worries me is getting them out without buggering the frames. ETA.Just seen Robbo's multi-tool post. Edited April 2, 2018 by rusty69 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen-in-Wellies Posted April 2, 2018 Report Share Posted April 2, 2018 Windows and portholes on my boat are attached with stainless machine screws in to tapped holes, as supplied by Piper. Rubber sealing tape. When the windows were removed for painting I put copperslip on each screw to discourage any corrosion. No leaks. Must admit the engineer side of me prefers proper threads to self tappers, or wood screws in to the lining through clearance holes. Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty69 Posted April 2, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2018 3 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said: Must admit the engineer side of me prefers proper threads to self tappers, or wood screws in to the lining through clearance holes. Thanks. Yes, it seems like a better engineering solution.Just wondered whether it is worth the extra effort, or are self tappers "good enough". I suppose It depends what has caused them to leak,whether deteriorating silicone,or the screws have given a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen-in-Wellies Posted April 2, 2018 Report Share Posted April 2, 2018 48 minutes ago, rusty69 said: Thanks. Yes, it seems like a better engineering solution.Just wondered whether it is worth the extra effort, or are self tappers "good enough". I suppose It depends what has caused them to leak,whether deteriorating silicone,or the screws have given a bit. I suspect that some self tappers will snap when you try and take them out. Drilling out a broken stainless self tapper is tricky stopping the drill wandering, but you can then tap for the next size up machine screw. Drilling and taping all the holes won't take long when you get in to the swing of it. Easy and quick compared with releasing the frames from the old sealant, cleaning up and dealing with any rust on the steelwork. Jen Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty69 Posted April 2, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2018 3 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said: Easy and quick compared with releasing the frames from the old sealant, cleaning up and dealing with any rust on the steelwork. Luckily I have experience of this bit, although 19 years ago,so I have managed to block it from my memory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W+T Posted April 2, 2018 Report Share Posted April 2, 2018 I agree with Jen I would go tapped holes to next size up self tappers are good but at times they can snap even when fitting new screws. Not what you want when refitting the windows. Good luck on removing them all, nightmare of a job, when the first screw snaps take a deeep breath It would be good to have drill tapper for a hand drill, be sooo much quicker for this job, just never been able to find one. All i have found are morse taper. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Brummie Posted April 3, 2018 Report Share Posted April 3, 2018 When the boat was built 30 years ago, my windows were pop riveted, and have no leaks I've had to replace one broken window, and used pop rivets to match the others. If you ever need to remove them, a simple light drill removes them. Also, you don't need access to the rear of the frame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty69 Posted April 3, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2018 Just now, Ex Brummie said: When the boat was built 30 years ago, my windows were pop riveted, and have no leaks I've had to replace one broken window, and used pop rivets to match the others. If you ever need to remove them, a simple light drill removes them. Also, you don't need access to the rear of the frame Sounds good.Although I don't think it will work on my windows now that they have been countersunk to take the screws. I wonder what "gunk" was used on yours to survive 30 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Brummie Posted April 3, 2018 Report Share Posted April 3, 2018 The 'gunk' used was the seal provided by Channelglaze. When I had to replace it after repairing a broken window, I bought some more from them with the new glass. Glazing suppliers have similar tapes for sale, some of which I purchased and used to seal the water tank hatch after repainting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty69 Posted April 3, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2018 Just now, Ex Brummie said: The 'gunk' used was the seal provided by Channelglaze. When I had to replace it after repairing a broken window, I bought some more from them with the new glass. Glazing suppliers have similar tapes for sale, some of which I purchased and used to seal the water tank hatch after repainting. Butyl rubber or Neoprene tape,or perhaps something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Brummie Posted April 3, 2018 Report Share Posted April 3, 2018 2 minutes ago, rusty69 said: Butyl rubber or Neoprene tape,or perhaps something else? I suspect neoprene tape. It's what they use for sealing d/g units into the frame. The Channelglaze seal was butyl I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_fincher Posted April 3, 2018 Report Share Posted April 3, 2018 If you have got significantly more than 10 years out of silicone I think you have done remarkably well, so 19 years seems a remarkable result. I doubt it is the screws loosening that has caused the problem. However even with stainless fastenings, there may well have been some galvanic action between screws and frame, so it is worth checking the condition of the countersinks, and that they are not overly enlarged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty69 Posted April 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 Ok, took window out today , but screws weren't man enough to pull the window flat against the boat with Butyl rubber in place. Next plan is to drill and tap, but what size ? A 5mm drill bit won't go in, so guessing anything bigger than 5mm should be ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted April 26, 2018 Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 How is the internal wooden framing held in place? It could be by those screws and if so you may have to drill and countersink the cabin side so you can secure the wooden framing. This may already be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty69 Posted April 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said: How is the internal wooden framing held in place? It could be by those screws and if so you may have to drill and countersink the cabin side so you can secure the wooden framing. This may already be done. Good point Tony. I think the battens were siliconed and then held in place with the self tapping screws.If I remove the screws there will be nothing holding the frames. Thanks. I guess I will have to put at least two screws in each batten, maybe more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknorman Posted April 26, 2018 Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 (edited) On our boat the windows are held on by wood screws that pass through clearance holes in the cabin skin and screw into the wooden window surround inside. Seems to work pretty well. Edited April 26, 2018 by nicknorman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty69 Posted April 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, rusty69 said: Good point Tony. I think the battens were siliconed and then held in place with the self tapping screws.If I remove the screws there will be nothing holding the frames. Thanks. I guess I will have to put at least two screws in each batten, maybe more. Anyone tried tapping softwood? ETA. Just tried tapping an m10 hole in a piece of pine. Looks pretty good. I wonder if it will be good enough! any thoughts anyone? Edited April 26, 2018 by rusty69 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknorman Posted April 26, 2018 Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 21 minutes ago, rusty69 said: Anyone tried tapping softwood? ETA. Just tried tapping an m10 hole in a piece of pine. Looks pretty good. I wonder if it will be good enough! any thoughts anyone? If you get several different sized bits of wood and then tap them, you get ... a xylophone! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bee Posted April 26, 2018 Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 I have used tapped holes (easy with the right size drill!) and little dome headed stainless machine screws that use a hex allen key that I got from Screwfix, there is no doubt a proper name for them and a link but they are good and cheap in packs of 50 or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WotEver Posted April 26, 2018 Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 17 minutes ago, Bee said: I have used tapped holes (easy with the right size drill!) and little dome headed stainless machine screws that use a hex allen key that I got from Screwfix, there is no doubt a proper name for them and a link but they are good and cheap in packs of 50 or so. Button head socket screws? https://www.screwfix.com/p/easyfix-button-head-socket-screws-stainless-steel-m5-x-16mm-50-pack/8345t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty69 Posted April 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, WotEver said: Button head socket screws? https://www.screwfix.com/p/easyfix-button-head-socket-screws-stainless-steel-m5-x-16mm-50-pack/8345t Could work. The trouble is, the hole in the steel is 4.5 mm,which implies an m6 machine screw,but the m6 machine countersunk machine screw has a 12mm head.I have a 10mm head currently, which would mean increasing the countersink dia,or going for something like your link with a bigger head dia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyboy Posted April 26, 2018 Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, rusty69 said: Anyone tried tapping softwood? ETA. Just tried tapping an m10 hole in a piece of pine. Looks pretty good. I wonder if it will be good enough! any thoughts anyone? Forget it. The pitch of an M10 bolt is too fine and the thread depth is too shallow. Edited April 26, 2018 by Flyboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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