Just looking

[Errant Ewart]

Just got back to this, so going back a bit and please don't all shout at once but working through the toaster figures on our toaster rounded up to 1800w max on 240v is a 7.5 A device which on 12 volts is 150 A so the 10 v which allows for system losses it becomes  180 A  assuming it runs for 10 minutes  that would be 30 Ah which if I am getting the drift of this would take an alternator rated at 175 A ( call it 150 A again due to losses ) and assuming a decent battery and well organised charging system which charges at 2.5 A per minute consequently the 30A draw down would take 12 minutes to put back. 

SOLID fuel stove seems  yes absolute but in the middle ish of boat

GAS cooking seems to be the way both hob and oven

Modern Diesel engine  yes

Proper lengthways bed  why but agree on 4'6''

NEVER ever haves are

Electric cooking even if gennie is feasable well the gennie anyway

Composting  bog  Jury seems out but they don't use water.

Diesel stove ( ok as back up ) why have two, diesel central heating  and central multifuel 

Cross beds why not (nicely)

Pram hoods!! as far as I know not possible on a trad

 60 foot makes more sense than 57 unless u realy are going to stay in one very tiny part of the canal system all your life. Still trying to sort out length question- Liverpool Leeds  a must but 60 seems to work for that but maybe not canals around Huddersfield but then do you need to get absolutely everywhere!

Alan may I compliment you on you galley looks sorted, one question which I could not work out from photo, is the boat Standard or reverse layout .

What is it about ecofans 

This has been a fabulous learning experience and we will look at lots of boats and are discussing a good 2nd hand again but they seem like gold plated rocking horse **** 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, Errant Ewart said:

Just got back to this, so going back a bit and please don't all shout at once but working through the toaster figures on our toaster rounded up to 1800w max on 240v is a 7.5 A device which on 12 volts is 150 A so the 10 v which allows for system losses it becomes  180 A  assuming it runs for 10 minutes  that would be 30 Ah which if I am getting the drift of this would take an alternator rated at 175 A ( call it 150 A again due to losses ) and assuming a decent battery and well organised charging system which charges at 2.5 A per minute consequently the 30A draw down would take 12 minutes to put back. 

Reality is that, depending on the SoC of the batteries it could take 3x or 10x or XX x your 12 minute estimated time. The batteries will limit what charge they take, not the alternator. The last 10% of charge can take many, many hours and as a guide, you are lucky to average 1/3rd of the alternator output.

Using your theory, using 150Ah per day would only take 1 hour to recharge back to 100% SoC - I bet it would be nearer 5 or 6 hours in practice.

Alan may I compliment you on you galley looks sorted, one question which I could not work out from photo, is the boat Standard or reverse layout .

Thank you, its a 'central galley' with a dining room opposite. Boat is a 14 foot beam, boat shaped 'tupperware', not a steel 'sewer tube'. 

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

22 minutes ago, Errant Ewart said:

Proper lengthways bed  why but agree on 4'6''

NEVER ever haves are

Cross beds why not (nicely)

 

What is it about ecofans 

This has been a fabulous learning experience and we will look at lots of boats and are discussing a good 2nd hand again but they seem like gold plated rocking horse **** 

 

Cross beds are probably fine on a  wide beam but I doubt you would get much more than 6ft length on a narrowboat and may be less. The base plate is probably2 metres (say 6ft 6 inches). The sides will be set in to give a wear edge of about 1" each, that leaves 6' 4". Then there is the  thickness of eh sides, say 6mm/quarter inch. Now 6' 3 1/2 ".

The hull sides will probably slope outwards to give you more room but the hull will probably be strengthened by at least 3" steel sections, the cabin lining will have go over these so lets sat the outward slope gets you back to around 6'6". Take off 2 x 3" for the strengthening plus the thickness of the cabin lining and you are left with less than 6ft length. That may be fine if you are short (say about 5' 6") but may not be for guests and future purchasers.

Now consider the fact that a cross bed takes up the whole width of the boat so there is no passage past the bed. That has implications for when you have guests who may need the toilet in the night and, maybe more to the point, it obstructs easy exit in case of an emergency like a fire.

[mrsmelly]

10 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Cross beds are probably fine on a  wide beam but I doubt you would get much more than 6ft length on a narrowboat and may be less. The base plate is probably2 metres (say 6ft 6 inches). The sides will be set in to give a wear edge of about 1" each, that leaves 6' 4". Then there is the  thickness of eh sides, say 6mm/quarter inch. Now 6' 3 1/2 ".

The hull sides will probably slope outwards to give you more room but the hull will probably be strengthened by at least 3" steel sections, the cabin lining will have go over these so lets sat the outward slope gets you back to around 6'6". Take off 2 x 3" for the strengthening plus the thickness of the cabin lining and you are left with less than 6ft length. That may be fine if you are short (say about 5' 6") but may not be for guests and future purchasers.

Now consider the fact that a cross bed takes up the whole width of the boat so there is no passage past the bed. That has implications for when you have guests who may need the toilet in the night and, maybe more to the point, it obstructs easy exit in case of an emergency like a fire.

Yep absolutely. We indeed had a crossbed on our widebeam it still left a 3 feet wide passage to walk past without crabbing but on a narrow beam  no flippin way.

[Errant Ewart]

Bit stupid  ( me) but then my calc was only rough actually quite genned upon batteries  very aware its always the load that dictates current flow , batteries in lots of ways are a moving target. You quite correctly point out soc then there is age endless design criteria , lithiums appear ( note said appear)  better and quite popular at mo getting more affordable and all charge storage devices "fill up" exponentially first bit quick last bit  so your absolutely right two rounds of toast will take 12 minute to put back times the X factor

BEDS  The Boss and I only 5'6 so 6' OK ( for us)  but all other comments  enlightening 

Edited March 4, 2018 by Errant Ewart

[Ray T]

1 hour ago, Errant Ewart said:

Just got back to this, so going back a bit and please don't all shout at once but working through the toaster figures on our toaster rounded up to 1800w max on 240v is a 7.5 A device which on 12 volts is 150 A so the 10 v which allows for system losses it becomes  180 A  assuming it runs for 10 minutes  that would be 30 Ah which if I am getting the drift of this would take an alternator rated at 175 A ( call it 150 A again due to losses ) and assuming a decent battery and well organised charging system which charges at 2.5 A per minute consequently the 30A draw down would take 12 minutes to put back. 

Pram hoods!! as far as I know not possible on a trad

 

DIY rain tent (pram hood) on a trad boat

[Errant Ewart]

 live and learn

[Tony Brooks]

3 hours ago, Errant Ewart said:

BEDS  The Boss and I only 5'6 so 6' OK ( for us)  but all other comments  enlightening 

But remember that does not address the possible need to get past the bed in an emergency or for guest access to the toilet/kitchen.

[ditchcrawler]

4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Cross beds are probably fine on a  wide beam but I doubt you would get much more than 6ft length on a narrowboat and may be less. The base plate is probably2 metres (say 6ft 6 inches). The sides will be set in to give a wear edge of about 1" each, that leaves 6' 4". Then there is the  thickness of eh sides, say 6mm/quarter inch. Now 6' 3 1/2 ".

 

We have a cross bed and I can just lay out in it, any taller and it would be a no no.

13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

But remember that does not address the possible need to get past the bed in an emergency or for guest access to the toilet/kitchen.

Our bed is right at the stern so no one needs to pass it for the loo. exit, straight out of bed and door, please cover eyes

[Bee]

Thing is with boats is that they are full of compromises, I could sit down and design the perfect boat but it would be too long (or short) too wide (or narrow) have portholes (and windows) have gas cooking (or maybe not) have a stove (or diesel heating) (or gas) have the bed at the front (or back) have sprayfoam (or rockwool) etc etc . My boat is exactly the same, it could be a bit longer (but that makes it too dear to moor and licence) it could have a composting loo (or not). In the end nothing is perfect, my wife tells me I am but then she laughs cruelly so perhaps not even me.

[Errant Ewart]

Oh Bee so true so true, I believe in having an idea of what you want , list of things maybe and  this chat with everybody is about is getting that list sorted both in terms of what's on the list and the priority  those things get. Tapping this wealth of experience has been educational. Then comes the real world and that's when you compromise, something of a dying art, from what I can see boaters are keepers of the flame! Living on a boat  requires some ( lots ofcompromise). My wife compromised when we married , but obviously she had her priorities right as we are 36 y not out ! ( she thinks I am lovely  and laughs at me a lot too!!!)  you sound a lucky man.

[Eddie b]

On 03/03/2018 at 22:42, TheBiscuits said:

Back on topic - Eddie, how much of your boat appliance wishlist do you have in the motorhome?  How do you power it when not on hookup on a site?

Note that you don't need to put up with tiny leisure gas cookers on a boat - there is room to install full size ones as long as they can convert to propane and are permitted on boats.

I do agree that there are some boats that have electric cookers, but none of the boaters who actually cook that I know have them unless they are marina based.  Some people think a pot noodle is cooking on a boat, we think roast lamb with all the trimmings is the way to go.

The motor home is a lot different to a boat in as much as you move from site to site, and most camp sites have electric hook up, but still governed by 16amp max, which most vans split 10 and 6 amp. My van is as low energy as I can get, led lights TV etc, I run 2 110  battery's on a split charger, I have 240watts of solar panels on the roof, so in summer the batteries manage via engine and solar, cooking is gas via a tank under the van, and when on hook up obviously the 240 equipment comes out.

[TheBiscuits]

9 minutes ago, Eddie b said:

The motor home is a lot different to a boat in as much as you move from site to site, and most camp sites have electric hook up, but still governed by 16amp max, which most vans split 10 and 6 amp. My van is as low energy as I can get, led lights TV etc, I run 2 110  battery's on a split charger, I have 240watts of solar panels on the roof, so in summer the batteries manage via engine and solar, cooking is gas via a tank under the van, and when on hook up obviously the 240 equipment comes out.

I think I got confused between you and @Errant Ewart when he swapped threads onto this one!

The motor home setup you have sounds remarkably like the electrical system on my boat, although my batteries were 235Ah when new, so maybe not that different in truth.

[Dave_P]

Slightly off-topic, but Eddie b - what's your favourite campsite then?  Just wondering...

[Eddie b]

30 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

Slightly off-topic, but Eddie b - what's your favourite campsite then?  Just wondering...

Well that what got me into this boat thing in the first place, less than an hour from home is a very simple site called woodbine cottage it sits on the side of the river weaver by Northwich, the pitch is right on the river bank (are you getting the picture) watching the boats going along has me hooked.

[OldGoat]

My Management declares she 'hates" gas but now secretly 'enjoys' it on the boat. The principal objection is that the hob burner (can) go pop when you turn them off. She likes cooking - both sorts - with the heating parts turned to maximum. When a pan is lifted for some process, there is a lot of flame - which quite understandably can be frightening (oblivious to the fact that 'twas she who caused that".

The grill she likes

The oven is a pig to light and goes pop - but there have been no complaint there. As our her Americanized cousins say "go figure"

She loves cooking and the year before last she cooked a 'proper' Christmas dinner with ALL (and I mean all) the trimmings for four plus Pud on a 4 burner small cooker. No way you can do that with a 'leccy cooker on a boat. Think on't. The oven problem can be sorted by having a split cooker and a hob with spark ignition. Worth analysing the exact why-nots and trying to eliminate them.

Bears repeating - a few years ago I saw an Aga in a small boat in the summer. It was oil fired, a small kitchen and unbearably hot. I wonder what happened to it....

Batteries

Most folks only look at the ins and outs as straight quantities (amps). They ignore the fact that the power reduces as you discharge the battery and ignore the fact that the power also reduces as you charge said batteries. It's not a straight calculation. Most forks on here grossly undersize their battery bank. I would rate the maximum discharge power in the same way as the optimum charge current - C/20 or better. That means a large battery bank  1500+ Ah!

 

Edit: Oh Poo! mish pelt - Thanks Dr B.

  

Edited March 7, 2018 by OldGoat
Above

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, OldGoat said:

 Most forks on here grossly undersize their batter bank.

 Disagree. When Mrs Bob makes pancakes, she makes sure the fork is big enough to reach the bottom of the bowl of batter so can't be accused of underestimating its size.

[OldGoat]

15 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

 Disagree. When Mrs Bob makes pancakes, she makes sure the fork is big enough to reach the bottom of the bowl of batter so can't be accused of underestimating its size.

I'm obliged...

When I saw you'd replied, I thought for a moment we'd be starting a "how large is it" (take that how you will..) discussion.

Much relieved.... 

[Dr Bob]

34 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

I'm obliged...

When I saw you'd replied, I thought for a moment we'd be starting a "how large is it" (take that how you will..) discussion.

Much relieved.... 

Dont forget the fork!