Just looking

[MtB]

My advice is buy a used boat. Find a boat you like, use it and almost immediately you'll start finding things about it you want to change. Change them and as your experience grows you'll find more and more things wrong with it and you have the skills to make the alerations in between boating trips.

In ten years,  I predict you too will be on here advising the newbies who think they know precisely what they want in a boat that they actually don't, and to get some serious boating experience under their belts before designing a newbuild. 

[Tony Brooks]

21 hours ago, Eddie b said:

Okay, got off to a bit of a bumpy start lol, but some good input so thanks to everyone for your help, and yes I am now considering the used option a little more now, so I will look for that magical bargain whilst continuing to look for a possible plot to work from, I will also read, read, read to get a bigger understanding of what I think will be a great future pass time.

I would suggest that you also consider ex-hire from a reputable hire fleet. You may well eventually rip a bedroom out to extend the galley/bathroom/saloon but most items that need attention, even infrequently, are normally easy to get to.

I did just than and now have a boat that sits us very well. A nice snug sitting room with stove, TV & convertible bed chairs at the back, dining room at the front where Mrs B can listen to football commentaries and music. Double bedroom in the middle with the galley to the front and bathroom to the back. There is no way we would have arrived at that combination it we had not used it for a year or two.

[Errant Ewart]

 I'm going to be brave, never owned a boat, have boated only in colder months, in fact should be on a  trip be now, up by the Anderton but they cancelled frozen up! We are considering very seriously being CC 'ers  and probably can afford a new boat( probably). The boss is up for it more than me , it is a big move but hey be dead soon! Consequently I am draft designing a 57 ft boat well the living in bits, have studied  100's of nb layouts. So having sussed you need a trad with you fire in the middle(ish) on the port side , toilets are a issue but pumpouts are out, galley is critical, we like to cook, would like a cross bed but don't want a dinette and the list goes on. Aware you need to balance the boat, cookers washing machines etc. Electrical power is something I can grasp also water.Pro bow thruster ( been stuck on numerous shallow bits on GU). Naturally we are not ignoring the important gubbins like ENGINES and how the shell  moves in the water. So that's the plan its is not a 5 min plan 3 days in Crick in May. I/we expect a deluge of comments but that's the point of this

Edited March 3, 2018 by Errant Ewart
spalling/typo

[rusty69]

8 minutes ago, Errant Ewart said:

The boss is up for it more than me , it is a big move but hey be dead soon!

Good luck to you both.Get out there and enjoy some boating (well,when the weather improves a bit).

[TheBiscuits]

10 minutes ago, Errant Ewart said:

 I'm going to be brave, never owned a boat, have boated only in colder months, in fact should be on a  trip be now, up by the Anderton but they cancelled frozen up! We are considering very seriously being CC 'ers  and probably can afford a new boat( probably). The boss is up for it more than me , it is a big move but hey be dead soon! Consequently I am draft designing a 57 ft boat well the living in bits, have studied  100's of nb layouts. So having sussed you need a trad with you fire in the middle(ish) on the port side , toilets are a issue but pumpouts are out, galley is critical, we like to cook, would like a cross bed but don't want a dinette and the list goes on. Aware you need to balance the boat, cookers washing machines etc. Electrical power is something I can grasp also water.Pro bow thruster ( been stuck on numerous shallow bits on GU). Naturally we are not ignoring the important gubbins like ENGINES and how the shell  moves in the water. So that's the plan its is not a 5 min plan 3 days in Crick in May. I/we expect a deluge of comments but that's the point of this

Ignore the heathens that still use wood preservative on steel boats - go for a decent two-pack - with cold zinc if you have money to burn!

Take a serious look at (so called) composting toilets like the Separett range.  The composting side of it is pointless on a boat, but the separation of solid & liquid is incredibly useful.  We empty our loo every month whether we need to or not.   The wet bits go down the elsan points without the "splashy fishes" of a cassette and without the hideous smell.

Edit to add: 

Using a bow thruster when you are stuck in a mix of mud and plastic bags is a surefire way to burn out the thruster.  Learn to use reverse and a spring line off the bank if necessary 

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by TheBiscuits

[Errant Ewart]

Tar ( sorry no pun intended) two pack mandatory and suitable for rivers ( apparently there are 2 types but need confirmation on that), yep into the zinc thing , Air/Natures head my personal preferences but relieved ( pun again) your experience confirms our thoughts. Engines Beta Marine 43/ Barrus 45 silenced . We love the sound of a truly traditional engine but don't want to live with one. would like a gen set  but no gas . Questions are endless answers diverse oh well.

[WotEver]

22 minutes ago, Errant Ewart said:

no gas

How are you intending to cook?

[Errant Ewart]

Single Electric oven with grill at eyeline  induction hob plus  mwave AND the pub well nice to dream, but then the boss can seriously produce so the galley I as said critical.

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, Errant Ewart said:

Single Electric oven with grill at eyeline  induction hob plus  mwave AND the pub well nice to dream, but then the boss can seriously produce so the galley I as said critical.

You need the diesel powerstation if you are intending to CC.  Or a marina & shoreline.

[WotEver]

4 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

You need the diesel powerstation if you are intending to CC.  Or a marina & shoreline.

Absolutely. You won’t do that with alternator and batteries. 

It has to be a diesel genset. 

[Errant Ewart]

Hence gen set but not ruled gas out entirely as gas hobs are the best but coupled with electric ovens. A  couple of electric boats as in Hybrids gone gasless  so power must be manageable but who knows.

[TheBiscuits]

If you are adamant about no gas, the only other semi-sensible but pricey options are something like the Wallas diesel cookers or something like an oil-fired Rayburn, but you wouldn't want to use either in summer.

 

Why no gas?

[Peter X]

Errant Ewart,

I would definitely echo Wotever's question, and expand on it as follows.

Electric cooking should never be considered unless you're usually going to be hooked up to a shoreline, otherwise it'll drain your batteries or require you to run the engine and/or a generator a LOT.

The traditional route as used on the old working boats is to have a solid fuel range in the back cabin, which gives you heating in winter, and a lovely warm feeling at least from the waist downwards when you're standing at your trad stern on a cold winter's day. The range gives you an oven and a hotplate for a kettle or saucepan. The downside is you still need to light it in summer in order to cook on it. 

Most modern narrow boats have a gas hob for cooking on, no oven, and heating is either from a simple stove or a diesel drip feed system; gas is widely available along the canals.

Personally if I were buying a boat (I don't have one, I just crew for other people), I'd go for a range next to a trad stern and a gas hob somewhere; best of both worlds.

 

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, Errant Ewart said:

Hence gen set but not ruled gas out entirely as gas hobs are the best but coupled with electric ovens. A  couple of electric boats as in Hybrids gone gasless  so power must be manageable but who knows.

The hybrid boats are essentially diesel-electric powerstations.

I strongly recommend you go this route as that will soon put another one on the market secondhand.  

Please fit 20KWh of lithium batteries and plenty of solar too!

More seriously, gas hob & gas oven/grill. Electric oven if you must but electric grills are the killer.

In a house install you can run an electric oven off a 13A plug socket, but the electric grill needs a 40A dedicated feed.

There is a reason nearly everyone uses propane, and it isn't because we are (all) daft!

[Errant Ewart]

Hmmmm every boat I have reviewed had an oven, gas mostly but not exclusively. Talking domestically, we have a dual fuel Rangemaster gas hob 2 large electric, one fan, ovens plus grill ( never used to be honest) .It is supplied on 6mm T&E ( think modern standard is 10 mm like showers) on a 30 amp MCB. While I am anxious to learn about Nbs realising I know nowt, I have taught 16th Ed think they are on 17th now but that was yrs ago, as in many and rewired the odd house.Has to be born in mind these things cycle their loads. Houses generally have a 60 A main fuse  though that could be changing too as we get more energy hungry( see thread on Nbs and breadmakers!).

Anyway, your  comments have set us thinking about the gas question,  the head chef aka boss girl says don't need a grill. Asume we could manage toaster on batteries. The heating element would run nicely on dc, power wise, rms equates to dc, anybody have a 12v toaster? Yer current would be horrific and dc transformers only work twice, switch on and off .

Edited March 3, 2018 by Errant Ewart

[haggis]

Would you only use a grill for making toast? What about grilling bacon, sausages, chops etc rather than frying them? I must admit to hardly ever using a frying pan on board but I use the grill a lot.

I agree that most boats also have an oven (gas). 

Haggis

[TheBiscuits]

3 minutes ago, Errant Ewart said:

Hmmmm every boat I have reviewed had an oven, gas mostly but not exclusively. Talking domestically, we have a dual fuel Rangemaster gas hob 2 large electric, one fan, ovens plus grill ( never used to be honest) .It is supplied on 6mm T&E ( think modern standard is 10 mm like showers) on a 30 amp MCB. While I am anxious to learn about Nbs realising I know nowt, I have taught 16th Ed think they are on 17th now but that was yrs ago, as in many and rewired the odd house.Has to be born in mind these things cycle their loads. Houses generally have a 60 A main fuse  though that could be changing too as we get more energy hungry( see thread on Nbs and breadmakers!).

Anyway, your  comments have set us thinking about the gas question,  the head chef aka boss girl says don't need a grill. Asume we could manage toaster on batteries. The heating element would nicely on dc, power wise, rms equates to dc, anybody have a 12v toaster? Yer current would be horrific and dc transformers on work twice, switch on and off .

It's not a house.

Marina shorelines are cabled at 16A, but it is a rare one that lets you draw that without tripping the whole jetty - or even the whole marina!

The rule of thumb to use for 12v Battery - Inverter - Appliance is calculate at 10V to allow for losses. 

My electric toaster (not on the boat!) is rated at 1200W.  That toaster will draw 120 Amps from the batteries while it is on (1200W/10V = 120A).  

You *could* only use it while the engine is running, but not outside the 8AM-8PM times, so no toast for breakfast or supper.

Microwaves typically use twice the quoted microwave power electrically, so a 1000W microwave actually pulls something like 2000W from the inverter.

How will you replace the electricity you are using into the batteries?  How much battery capacity are you intending to install?

[Errant Ewart]

Aware Nb not a house, comments about domestic in response to 40 A grill just not accurate. A  boat whole different ball game and hence why I am talking to you, well I won't be as battery on Lap is flat. Your last i/p was quite informative on how to rate devices and that we need to alter our thinking. I /we are taking on board ( no pun intended)  your words. 

Quote

 

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Errant Ewart

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

How are you intending to cook?

This boater managed it for 5 years http://nboakfield.blogspot.co.uk/

[Alan de Enfield]

22 minutes ago, Errant Ewart said:

 Asume we could manage toaster on batteries. The heating element would run nicely on dc, power wise, rms equates to dc, anybody have a 12v toaster? Yer current would be horrific and dc transformers only work twice, switch on and off .

Why would you want a 12v toaster when you will have 230v Ac on board anyway ?

Our 'mains' toaster, kettle and microwave (also had a deep fat fryer on board until Dr says 'no more') run quite happily on the inverter, we have 6x 230Ah batteries and the engines run for several (5 or 6 hours) most days so put it all back in again,

Yes those appliances will draw 100-160a from the batteries but they are normally only on for 5 or 10 minutes - having an electric cooker and doing the 'Sunday roast' for 2 or 3 hours would be a totally different bucket-of-fish.

We have a mains immersion heater but I would NEVER consider (on purpose) running that off the batteries (via the inverter).

 

The BIG BIG difference between a house and a boat, is that you are not only an electrical user, but an electrical generator, what you use YOU have to replace, it just doesn't magically appear down the wires.

Work out how much you will use (do a power audit) add 10%-20% and then work out how you are going to generate that on a daily basis.

3 minutes ago, Errant Ewart said:

I am talking to you, well I won't be as battery on Lap is flat.

If you cannot manage to keep a lap-top battery charged what hope have you of ...................

(Just so you know its 'in jest')

[TheBiscuits]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

We have a mains immersion heater but I would NEVER consider (on purpose) running that off the batteries

There is a tale in there somewhere!

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

There is a tale in there somewhere!

Indeed there is (was) It won't happen again.

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

Indeed there is (was) It won't happen again.

I have to admit I once deliberately powered the immersion off the inverter - for about 5 minutes after installing the new inverter just to give it a soak test. 

As I'd want the engine running anyway to power the immersion it seems a bit pointless really, but it was installed in the calorifier when I bought the boat.

[TheBiscuits]

Back on topic - Eddie, how much of your boat appliance wishlist do you have in the motorhome?  How do you power it when not on hookup on a site?

Note that you don't need to put up with tiny leisure gas cookers on a boat - there is room to install full size ones as long as they can convert to propane and are permitted on boats.

I do agree that there are some boats that have electric cookers, but none of the boaters who actually cook that I know have them unless they are marina based.  Some people think a pot noodle is cooking on a boat, we think roast lamb with all the trimmings is the way to go.

[Errant Ewart]

love the jest, lap now on a shore line and I love roast lamb and yorkies

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Errant Ewart
addition