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shelly-123

Mill Scale and False Rivets

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Hi

 

 1. Is it advisable to have the mill scale removed by shop blasting or is it ok to overpaint mill scale ? on a narrow boat new build.

 2. Are there any problems associated with cosmetic false rivets ? or is it wiser to keep the hull clear of such trinkets 

 

Regards

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Shot or grit blasting. Yes, a new build is best done this way, otherwise the paint and blacking will not adhere well.

Cosmetic false rivets are a superb source of your first rust patch...especially if the boat is sprayed rather than painted.

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9 minutes ago, shelly-123 said:

Hi

 

 1. Is it advisable to have the mill scale removed by shop blasting or is it ok to overpaint mill scale ? on a narrow boat new build.

 2. Are there any problems associated with cosmetic false rivets ? or is it wiser to keep the hull clear of such trinkets 

 

Regards

1. Best to have it removed as it will come off over time anyway and take the paint with it. The cabin will be prepared prior to painting. The hull may not be.

2. Ridicule or envy of others depending on your point of view. More realistically though they cost money and they do nothing. If you value things that look expensive over things that are simply good at what they are meant to be then they may be for you.

JP

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Rivets are a source of much fun and teasing on this forum. If you want them then you need a suitably trad looking boat and lots and lots of them located to emulate a proper riveted boat. A token handful at the front and back looks a bit daft. They can be a horrible source of rust with a little brown stain running downwards from every one.

The Northwich Traders and some Barry Hawkins boats are good examples of how it should be done (in my opinion of course)

............Dave.

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If its a new boat I would suggest its blasted and the hull is blacked with 2 pack epoxy from new, if possible including the base plate. I wish I had taken that route.

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On 18/11/2017 at 10:47, Captain Pegg said:

1. Best to have it removed as it will come off over time anyway and take the paint with it. The cabin will be prepared prior to painting. The hull may not be.

 

Better I'd have thought, to build the boat from steel without millscale in the first place, where the scale is removed at the factory before delivery and fabrication. 

"Pickled and primed" I think the term is, you were telling me the other day on here.

I think the pickled and primed steel for the repairs to my boat cost about 20% more than scaly steel. Well worth paying the extra for. 

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13 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Added a word to your post there Dave, for the benefit of the OP!

Real rivets are fine and attract no ridicule.

 

I think the op expresses it better.....cosmetic false rivets!

...............Dave

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36 minutes ago, dmr said:

The Northwich Traders and some Barry Hawkins boats are good examples of how it should be done (in my opinion of course)

This is very much a personal opinion thing though.

I have always found the R W Davies, and particularly the Barry Hawkins "rivets" completely over the top. (Mel Davis too, I would say).

Compare them to the far more subtle offerings from Brinklow Boat Services.  The latter look like a pretty good approximation to what they are pretending to be.  In my view few other firms come close to achieving it.

Pictures below of Simon Wain's lovely replica "Oberon" - behind is his brother Rex on "Sextans" - the real thing.

Oberon1.JPG

 

Oberon2.JPG

 

Edited by alan_fincher

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Presumably people who like to ridicule false rivets fell the same about trad narrowboats which are equally false copies of working boat shapes.

Do those people only own cruiser style boats?

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1 minute ago, JamesFrance said:

Presumably people who like to ridicule false rivets fell the same about trad narrowboats which are equally false copies of working boat shapes.

Do those people only own cruiser style boats?

What is a "false copy" ?

Is this

no60163-tornado-class-a1-peppercorn-paci

 

a "false copy" of this....

london-north-eastern-railway-class-a1-46

 

Provided you don't claim a modern replica of something to be one of the originals, what's the issue?

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6 minutes ago, JamesFrance said:

Presumably people who like to ridicule false rivets fell the same about trad narrowboats which are equally false copies of working boat shapes.

Do those people only own cruiser style boats?

That's not comparable. A narrowboat cabin has to have a shape and the shape of traditional boat cabins developed to suit the environment. That transfers into newer builds and results in a more suitable shape for cruising than a typical squarer box. Some traditionally shaped boats have a shape to the cabin front that follows the same principles but can't be a copy of anything.

A boat that has a welded hull doesn't need anything else hence the obvious answer to the question posed was to think about why someone would want them.

JP

Just now, JamesFrance said:

Just that I don't see adding false rivets to be any different to copying traditional shapes designed for cargo.

You are missing the point that the shape developed because it was suitable and remains so today.

JP

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10 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

This is very much a personal opinion thing though.

I have always found the R W Davies, and particularly the Barry Hawkins "rivets" completely over the top. (Mel Davis too, I would say).

Compare them to the far more subtle offerings from Brinklow Boat Services.  The latter look like a pretty good approximation to what they are pretending to be.  In my view few other firms come close to achieving it.

Pictures below of Simon Wain's lovely replica "Oberon" - behind is his brother Rex on "Sextans" - the real thing.

 

I don't disagree with you, but you are considering real replicas here which is a very different kettle of fish. The Traders are a bit over the top but are they pleasing to the eye? and do they look appropriate on our historic canal system?, and to my eye the answer is yes. A bog standard clonecraft with a token row of rivets does not do it for me, but then these are just different degrees of wrongness so it will always be subjective.

................Dave

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34 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

 

london-north-eastern-railway-class-a1-46

 

 

I never did understand why locomotives, cars and planes (along with most other things) were always painted various shades of grey until the middle of the 20th century.

 

.........................   coat ;) 

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42 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

You are missing the point that the shape developed because it was suitable and remains so today.

An excellent example of form following function.

While welded on washers oops, sorry false rivets, are a good example of the trimuph of disposable income over common sense.

(As are personalised number plates on cars IHMO)

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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

 

Better I'd have thought, to build the boat from steel without millscale in the first place, where the scale is removed at the factory before delivery and fabrication. 

"Pickled and primed" I think the term is, you were telling me the other day on here.

I think the pickled and primed steel for the repairs to my boat cost about 20% more than scaly steel. Well worth paying the extra for. 

This is definitely the way to go, we used blasted and painted steel for our rebottoming/ refooting work. 

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9 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

Quea?

Its a bit like Apple wood Smoked cheese, you can very occasional get Apple Wood Smoked, but most often the small print says Apple Wood style smoked cheese.

Northwich Traders are replica style boats :D

...............Dave

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11 hours ago, shelly-123 said:

Hi

 

 1. Is it advisable to have the mill scale removed by shop blasting or is it ok to overpaint mill scale ? on a narrow boat new build.

 2. Are there any problems associated with cosmetic false rivets ? or is it wiser to keep the hull clear of such trinkets 

 

Regards

1. Yes. But it can be problematic for builders to remove the scale as it requires shot blasting which is very noisy and messy and not all builders have the facility. Our boat’s hull wasn’t blasted and the blacking tended to fall off in chunks. So we had it blasted and 2-packed and it’s been great ever since.

2. I think it depends on how well the “rivets” are attached. They are washers, welded in the centre, which leaves a possible small gap around the outer edge of the washer. On our boat and other well constructed ones, this gap is filled and thus doesn’t create a water trap and thus there is no “rust starting point” but I think some other builders didn’t fill these gaps and thus they can be a rust starting point.

Our boat is 7 years old and we have never had any issues with the “rivets”, no rust streaks etc. The only thing I’d say is that having re-applied the blacking last year, the rivets take a bit longer as you have to be careful to apply the blacking all round the “rivet” but without causing runs. Obviously it is easier to black a flat surface. But that is a pretty minor issue.

Lots of people enjoy dissing boats with false rivets, I suspect it’s because they have tiny genitals and need to compensate somehow. But they are just a decorative feature the same as having a multicoloured paint job as opposed to painting the boat matt black, a fancy tiller pin as opposed to a rusty nail etc. etc.

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On 18/11/2017 at 22:04, nicknorman said:

But they are just a decorative feature the same as having a multicoloured paint job as opposed to painting the boat matt black, a fancy tiller pin as opposed to a rusty nail etc. etc.

 

Oh you didn't like my boat then??!

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1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

None of mine has false rivets.... 

Isn't 'thou shalt not bear false rivets' one of the 10 boating commandments?

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