Inverter

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

Very much less. Less than 10% of summer output on average. 

I think it is also important for a 'first timer to solar' to realise that you do not achieve the rated output of the panels at these Northern latitudes.

The quoted output is based on  'vertical sunlight, at the equator' so maximum strength and shortest distance of travel thru a 'polluted' dusty atmosphere - the reality of Solar production in the UK is that the low angle of incidence of the sunlight means that it is traveling much further thru the atmosphere and the panels are therefore not as effective as 'specification'.

Again - my experience is that even in Summer you are lucky to achieve 75% of the 'specified output' on all but the most perfect days.

So, if everyone says that in Winter you achieve 10%of your Summer output, then it comes back to about 7.5% of the rated output.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[jddevel]

18 hours ago, rusty69 said:

2 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I'm very glad we went for the 43.

 

In my original sailaway package at Stoke Boats from which we withdrew as a result of paint problems -NOT I WOULD EMPHASIS AS A RESULT OF THEIR WORK BUT AN OUTSIDE CONTRACTOR- we had a 43 however when we bought our current sailaway from Bourne Boats via Swanley Bridge Marina it already had a new 38 installed.

[mrsmelly]

13 minutes ago, jddevel said:

In my original sailaway package at Stoke Boats from which we withdrew as a result of paint problems -NOT I WOULD EMPHASIS AS A RESULT OF THEIR WORK BUT AN OUTSIDE CONTRACTOR- we had a 43 however when we bought our current sailaway from Bourne Boats via Swanley Bridge Marina it already had a new 38 installed.

Over the years I have noticed that sailaways generaly have smaller engines fitted. It makes the deal look better on paper against others but in reality its just the engines are cheaper and down to costings. However no narrowboat needs more than 38 horsepower its just a fairly modern trend. My first boat a 56 footer had 9hp  I have had others with only 30 ish and my 65 footer had 36 ample horses. My 70 foot Hudson with 15 mil bottom and was a very heavy boat had 43 and even on tidal waters was more than enough. The bigger engine is better as Nick says when a travelpower come in to the equasion, without one 38 is tons.

[Robbo]

Just now, mrsmelly said:

Over the years I have noticed that sailaways generaly have smaller engines fitted. It makes the deal look better on paper against others but in reality its just the engines are cheaper and down to costings. However no narrowboat needs more than 38 horsepower its just a fairly modern trend. My first boat a 56 footer had 9hp  I have had others with only 30 ish and my 65 footer had 36 ample horses. My 70 foot Hudson with 15 mil bottom and was a very heavy boat had 43 and even on tidal waters was more than enough. The bigger engine is better as Nick says when a travelpower come in to the equasion, without one 38 is tons.

It's nice to have a low revving engine where the torque is fairly low in the rev range tho and the hp figure is not a good indication of been nice for a canalboat engine.   My engine is 85hp, and peak torque is created at 1300rpm.

 

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, Robbo said:

It's nice to have a low revving engine where the torque is fairly low in the rev range tho and the hp figure is not a good indication of been nice for a canalboat engine.   My engine is 85hp, and peak torque is created at 1300rpm.

 

Horses for courses innitt. On narrow ditches and narrowboats/widebeam type fat narrowboats a bigger engine never realy works so its not good for it. Slightly smaller stuff works harder.

[Robbo]

Just now, mrsmelly said:

Horses for courses innitt. On narrow ditches and narrowboats/widebeam type fat narrowboats a bigger engine never realy works so its not good for it. Slightly smaller stuff works harder.

My boat was specced for open waters around Holland however around the UK canals like the L&L I can trundle along at a nice low 1000-1200rpm.   It tops out at around 2000-2200rpm when I can push it like on the A&C

[Bargebuilder]

23 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Again - my experience is that even in Summer you are lucky to achieve 75% of the 'specified output' on all but the most perfect days.

You are achieving poor results!

My 4 X 235w solar panels regularly output over 70 amps at the charging voltage of 13 volts meaning I expect in Summer when the Sun is shining to get no less than 910 watts out of the rated 940 watts, and on perfect sunny days at noon, almost the full rated output.

My calorifier contains a 1000w immersion heater which if operated for an hour when the Sun is shining will heat my water without making any noticeable demands on our battery bank; but only for about 4 Summer months. We use a Morco F11e the rest of the time.

[rusty69]

3 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

You are achieving poor results!

My 4 X 235w solar panels regularly output over 70 amps at the charging voltage of 13 volts meaning I expect in Summer when the Sun is shining to get no less than 910 watts out of the rated 940 watts, and on perfect sunny days at noon, almost the full rated output.

My calorifier contains a 1000w immersion heater which if operated for an hour when the Sun is shining will heat my water without making any noticeable demands on our battery bank; but only for about 4 Summer months. We use a Morco F11e the rest of the time.

Its sounds like you have an impressive set-up.

[mrsmelly]

7 minutes ago, Robbo said:

My boat was specced for open waters around Holland however around the UK canals like the L&L I can trundle along at a nice low 1000-1200rpm.   It tops out at around 2000-2200rpm when I can push it like on the A&C

Ahh the A and C PROPER canal, my favourite and will be back on it next summer yipeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Bargebuilder]

9 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Horses for courses innitt. On narrow ditches and narrowboats/widebeam type fat narrowboats a bigger engine never realy works so its not good for it. Slightly smaller stuff works harder.

At last, someone who understands that modern diesel engines need to be 'worked' hard. Petrol engines don't care, not that you would want one in a boat, but the ideal for a modern diesel is for it to be operated at about 3/4 of its rated output. I know many of you will argue, but properly 'worked' diesel engines run hot and don't 'glaze' their cylinder bores. I have worked on many such engines and it is a real problem, particularly when the engine is left to run out of gear, simply to spin the alternators.

In my opinion, new build fabricators are also guilty of over-selling engines, knowing that many people think that bigger must be better. I have a 85hp engine in my barge, and in hindsight I should have specified a 60hp, but I know of several people with similar barges who have opted for 110hp lumps! My barge only needs 15hp to push it along at 6 knots, the rest of the power is just for stopping it quickly. Your narrow boat will need less than 10hp, probably a lot less, to drive it at canal cruising speeds. A bit more power is handy for going upstream, but no amount of power will drive it at more than its hull speed, so above the optimum horse power, any engine is simply making an ever bigger bow wave up which the boat can't climb.

Narrow boats carrying 20 tonnes were once drawn by a horse. Susequently these were replaced by wonderful engines of less than 10hp that swung a big prop for 'grip' on the water, now, people must have engines of 40hp plus, in boats that carry kitchen units and a couple of crew!

There are many reasons of convenience for using ones main engine for generating electricity, but it isn't very good for it.

A small generator, preferably diesel for safety, is much cheaper to run and your ships engine will thank you.

 

[nicknorman]

12 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

At last, someone who understands that modern diesel engines need to be 'worked' hard. Petrol engines don't care, not that you would want one in a boat, but the ideal for a modern diesel is for it to be operated at about 3/4 of its rated output. I know many of you will argue, but properly 'worked' diesel engines run hot and don't 'glaze' their cylinder bores. I have worked on many such engines and it is a real problem, particularly when the engine is left to run out of gear, simply to spin the alternators.

In my opinion, new build fabricators are also guilty of over-selling engines, knowing that many people think that bigger must be better. I have a 85hp engine in my barge, and in hindsight I should have specified a 60hp, but I know of several people with similar barges who have opted for 110hp lumps! My barge only needs 15hp to push it along at 6 knots, the rest of the power is just for stopping it quickly. Your narrow boat will need less than 10hp, probably a lot less, to drive it at canal cruising speeds. A bit more power is handy for going upstream, but no amount of power will drive it at more than its hull speed, so above the optimum horse power, any engine is simply making an ever bigger bow wave up which the boat can't climb.

Narrow boats carrying 20 tonnes were once drawn by a horse. Susequently these were replaced by wonderful engines of less than 10hp that swung a big prop for 'grip' on the water, now, people must have engines of 40hp plus, in boats that carry kitchen units and a couple of crew!

There are many reasons of convenience for using ones main engine for generating electricity, but it isn't very good for it.

A small generator, preferably diesel for safety, is much cheaper to run and your ships engine will thank you.

 

The Travelpower and the 175A alternator on our 43 can produce about 5.5kw at 1100 rpm which is 7.3 bhp assuming 100% efficiency, so in reality at least 10bhp. This is why an engine producing lots of torque at low rpm is needed. Certainly, 43 bhp is far too much for canals, and we never use more than 2000rpm out of the 2800 max even on deep rivers. However it's is important to remember that electrical load can represnt much more load than the propellor at low engine rpm.

As to fitting a seperate generator, fine on a barge. On a narrowboat it takes up too much room, and costs a fortune!

Our 43 now has about 2700 hrs of mostly canal use and it has zero visible smoke output and uses no detectable amount of oil. So it is not the case that the engine is overpowered to the extent the bores glaze.

[Robbo]

12 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

The Travelpower and the 175A alternator on our 43 can produce about 5.5kw at 1100 rpm which is 7.3 bhp assuming 100% efficiency, so in reality at least 10bhp. This is why an engine producing lots of torque at low rpm is needed. Certainly, 43 bhp is far too much for canals, and we never use more than 2000rpm out of the 2800 max even on deep rivers. However it's is important to remember that electrical load can represnt much more load than the propellor at low engine rpm.

As to fitting a seperate generator, fine on a barge. On a narrowboat it takes up too much room, and costs a fortune!

Our 43 now has about 2700 hrs of mostly canal use and it has zero visible smoke output and uses no detectable amount of oil. So it is not the case that the engine is overpowered to the extent the bores glaze.

If i had a narrowboat your setup does look ideal.   I think though when you go larger than the 43 having the separate items becomes more ideal as running a large engine with a small (in comparison) Travelpower isn't ideal.

[Bargebuilder]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

Our 43 now has about 2700 hrs of mostly canal use and it has zero visible smoke output and uses no detectable amount of oil. So it is not the case that the engine is overpowered to the extent the bores glaze.

I wouldn't bee too confident: Glazing is insidious, building up at different rates depending on the degree of abuse.

It is recognised by all manufacturers that the prolonged running of diesel engines when not under sufficient load results in glazing. The microscopic oil channels in the cylinder bore gradually get clogged, reducing lubrication to the piston rings, producing excessive heat, 'blow by' and rapid wear. All of which are best avoided. Running ones main engine to simple generate electricity is bad practice for this reason.

[nicknorman]

7 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

I wouldn't bee too confident: Glazing is insidious, building up at different rates depending on the degree of abuse.

It is recognised by all manufacturers that the prolonged running of diesel engines when not under sufficient load results in glazing. The microscopic oil channels in the cylinder bore gradually get clogged, reducing lubrication to the piston rings, producing excessive heat, 'blow by' and rapid wear. All of which are best avoided. Running ones main engine to simple generate electricity is bad practice for this reason.

Up to a point I agree, however we rarely run the engine just to charge the batteries, and when we do the load is probably about the same as having the boat in gear at low rpm (100A at 14v or so = 3 or 4 bhp). Of course later in the charge when the current is much less, the load is very light. Also using an appropriate oil helps. I think glazing tends to happen when the  engine running is always on a very light load. Short periods of light load followed by periods of heavier load (eg cruising whilst taking a few Kw of electrical load). So if the boat rarely moves, I think you have a point. If the boat is regularly used for cruising, I think your point is only a theoretical one.

Edited August 25, 2017 by nicknorman

[nb Innisfree]

I reckon bore glazing is caused  by running at idle from cold start for too long a period, especially in cold weather. Run engine at medium revs with a decent load until it is at operating temp and piston rings have expanded enough to make a proper seal then reduce to low revs. 

If the LPWS4 on Innisfree was cruised slowly in winter straight from a cold start it wouldn't have reached proper temp after an hour, I only did this on a few occasions but instead used to up the revs after a couple of mins first thing and let the large alternator provide some load, always in summer though, in cold weather this wasn't enough so I pre-heated with the Mikuni, then 5 mins cruising brought it to up to temp.  

[Bargebuilder]

5 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

I reckon bore glazing is caused  by running at idle from cold start for too long a period, especially in cold weather. Run engine at medium revs with a decent load until it is at operating temp and piston rings have expanded enough to make a proper seal then reduce to low revs. 

Piston rings are split and sit in a groove so they don't rely on expansion due to high temperature to work.

[Bargebuilder]

59 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

p to a point I agree, however we rarely run the engine just to charge the batteries, and when we do the load is probably about the same as having the boat in gear at low rpm (100A at 14v or so = 3 or 4 bhp). Of course later in the charge when the current is much less, the load is very light. Also using an appropriate oil helps. I think glazing tends to happen when the  engine running is always on a very light load. Short periods of light load followed by periods of heavier load (eg cruising whilst taking a few Kw of electrical load). So if the boat rarely moves, I think you have a point. If the boat is regularly used for cruising, I think your point is only a theoretical one.

It is a bit more than theoretical, I'm afraid.

If you are happy that your engine is not at any danger from glazing, then that is great, but if others are reading this and deciding how to approach power generation on board, then they need to be aware of the following:

Running the main engine without it being under load, for example for just charging the batteries can be very damaging. Even running a 40 plus horse power engine with maximum revs between 2500 and 3000 at 1500rpm at canal cruising speeds isn't a whole lot better.

Periodic engine running of near maximum revs for at least 10-15 minutes will help to burn off the damaging residue, but pottering around at less than 2000rpm won't, as the engine will simply never attain its full temperature.

Using less refined engine oil instead of the latest 'all singing, all dancing' oils will help to prevent glazing if your engine manufacturer sanctions their use.

Investing in solar panels or a small generator to charge your battery might be cheaper in the long run than damaging your engine.

[cuthound]

According to my engine manual, my Beta 43 is OK to run out of gear for battery charging purposes for a maximum of 1 hour in 10.

However I generally cruise every day, so for me it isn't much of an issue.

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Bargebuilder said:

It is a bit more than theoretical, I'm afraid.

If you are happy that your engine is not at any danger from glazing, then that is great, but if others are reading this and deciding how to approach power generation on board, then they need to be aware of the following:

Running the main engine without it being under load, for example for just charging the batteries can be very damaging. Even running a 40 plus horse power engine with maximum revs between 2500 and 3000 at 1500rpm at canal cruising speeds isn't a whole lot better.

Periodic engine running of near maximum revs for at least 10-15 minutes will help to burn off the damaging residue, but pottering around at less than 2000rpm won't, as the engine will simply never attain its full temperature.

Using less refined engine oil instead of the latest 'all singing, all dancing' oils will help to prevent glazing if your engine manufacturer sanctions their use.

Investing in solar panels or a small generator to charge your battery might be cheaper in the long run than damaging your engine.

I think you are over-egging the point. The canals are full of Beta 43-engined boats that spend most of their lives running at 1300 rpm or so when cruising (max revs 2800) and go for many thousands of hours without showing any sign of glazed bores. Yes Beta do recommend using a fairly low-spec oil.

[Bargebuilder]

4 hours ago, cuthound said:

According to my engine manual, my Beta 43 is OK to run out of gear for battery charging purposes for a maximum of 1 hour in 10.

 

2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Yes Beta do recommend using a fairly low-spec oil.

Both of these recommendations are because glazing is a concern to the manufacturers.

I don't think that too much sleep should be lost worrying, but it is certainly 'best practice' to specify an engine correctly without adding a bit of extra power for 'good measure' and to avoid, if at all possible, running the engine simply to top up the batteries.

What was concerning me about the direction of the thread, was that charging the batteries by using the main engine (whilst moored) was being discussed, when in fact such practice is not to be recommended. Not disastrous, but simply not best practice.

Try to specify your engine so that is 'working' when cruising, but with a bit of 'grunt' in hand for going upstream and emergency stopping. Such an engine will last longer, be cheaper to buy and of course cheaper to run. Also, a smaller engine will be damaged less by being run just for battery charging when this is essential.

[nicknorman]

5 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

 

Both of these recommendations are because glazing is a concern to the manufacturers.

I don't think that too much sleep should be lost worrying, but it is certainly 'best practice' to specify an engine correctly without adding a bit of extra power for 'good measure' and to avoid, if at all possible, running the engine simply to top up the batteries.

What was concerning me about the direction of the thread, was that charging the batteries by using the main engine (whilst moored) was being discussed, when in fact such practice is not to be recommended. Not disastrous, but simply not best practice.

Try to specify your engine so that is 'working' when cruising, but with a bit of 'grunt' in hand for going upstream and emergency stopping. Such an engine will last longer, be cheaper to buy and of course cheaper to run. Also, a smaller engine will be damaged less by being run just for battery charging when this is essential.

You say "not best practice", but you are putting the issue of bore glazing ahead of everything else, such as ability to generate lots of electrical power at low rpm, have an engine that can both potter along a shallow canal and push against a tide on a deep river with the tumble drier on. Bore glazing is a factor, but generally not that significant a factor on a Kubota engine.

[WotEver]

7 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

What was concerning me about the direction of the thread, was that charging the batteries by using the main engine (whilst moored) was being discussed, when in fact such practice is not to be recommended.

Perhaps not but that's not going to stop the thousands of boaters who do so regularly. 

[Tony Brooks]

Why will it be cheaper to run?

If being smaller allows it to run at its best fuel consumption the yes, but if it is forced to run above that then no. In any case any likely difference here will be small.

The power required to push a given boat through a given waterway will be the same whatever engine size is fitted (unless you consider the possible slight reduction in draft caused by fitting a smaller engine) so both engines will need to urn the same amount of fuel to obtain the energy required.

I can't see a smaller engine making any significant difference to fuel consumption or running costs.

[Bargebuilder]

8 hours ago, rusty69 said:

8 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

My 4 X 235w solar panels regularly output over 70 amps at the charging voltage of 13 volts meaning I expect in Summer when the Sun is shining to get no less than 910 watts out of the rated 940 watts, and on perfect sunny days at noon, almost the full rated output.

My calorifier contains a 1000w immersion heater which if operated for an hour when the Sun is shining will heat my water without making any noticeable demands on our battery bank; but only for about 4 Summer months. We use a Morco F11e the rest of the time.

Its sounds like you have an impressive set-up.

Not impressive at all.

I got the 4 panels second hand from Bimble Solar and they operate through 2 Chinese (I think) mppt controllers. I do lift one edge to 23 degrees above the horizontal for summer use and raise them still further in the Winter, but I don't attempt to rotate them to follow the Sun at all.

If you are unable to tilt your panels, then just add more to compensate if you have room.

Nothing must be allowed to cast a shadow over any part of any of the panels to avoid a drastic reduction in output. 

That's it, no secret.

[Robbo]

22 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

You say "not best practice", but you are putting the issue of bore glazing ahead of everything else, such as ability to generate lots of electrical power at low rpm, have an engine that can both potter along a shallow canal and push against a tide on a deep river with the tumble drier on. Bore glazing is a factor, but generally not that significant a factor on a Kubota engine.

There is a hybrid engine that you can get that has a generator / electric motor.   The electric motor gives you the extra power when you need it along the rivers and also generates electric when not if required.

http://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/

Edited August 25, 2017 by Robbo