Red diesel - here we go again

[BruceinSanity]

Consultation on red diesel: https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/red-diesel-call-for-evidence/red-diesel-call-for-evidence

It's about all aspects of red diesel use, so boaters need to get in there and make sure we're not forgotten.

Edited April 4, 2017 by BruceinSanity

[peterboat]

53 minutes ago, BruceinSanity said:

Consultation on red diesel: https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/red-diesel-call-for-evidence/red-diesel-call-for-evidence

It's about all aspects of red diesel use, so boaters need to get in there and make sure we're not forgotten.

Done 10 mins for a letter asking to keep the staus quo fingers crossed

[Machpoint005]

11 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Done 10 mins for a letter asking to keep the staus quo fingers crossed

Do you mean status quo, or status as it was ten years ago? Presumably the UK government will be able to make red diesel duty-free again, but I don't see them doing it. Policing the existing system is either impracticable or non-existent. 

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Machpoint005 said:

Do you mean status quo, or status as it was ten years ago? Presumably the UK government will be able to make red diesel duty-free again, but I don't see them doing it. Policing the existing system is either impracticable or non-existent. 

Ian I suspect they want to get rid of it totally it would save them a lot of hassle

[Machpoint005]

Yeah hope so!

But would they give up the 2.1 billion squid or whatever it is?

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

Yeah hope so!

But would they give up the 2.1 billion squid or whatever it is?

I think we would all use white and entitled people would claim the tax back and as sure as eggs is eggs we wont be entitled! then they dont have to bother with any enforcement

[Machpoint005]

Just now, peterboat said:

I think we would all use white and entitled people would claim the tax back and as sure as eggs is eggs we wont be entitled! then they dont have to bother with any enforcement

I'm sure the farmers and the construction industry would rather buy red diesel net of tax -- They may have a louder collective voice than boaters!

[peterboat]

3 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

I'm sure the farmers and the construction industry would rather buy red diesel net of tax -- They may have a louder collective voice than boaters!

Lets see what happens but I am not holding my breath on this one

[Machpoint005]

Just now, peterboat said:

Lets see what happens but I am not holding my breath on this one

Don't bother - Auntie Tess has more important things to think about, like Easter chocolate eggs.

[mrsmelly]

7 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

Don't bother - Auntie Tess has more important things to think about, like Easter chocolate eggs.

I like chocolate 

[peterboat]

3 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I like chocolate 

So do I yum yum

[mrsmelly]

Just now, peterboat said:

So do I yum yum

Thats Y I am rotund ...........or could it be the beer?

[furnessvale]

Rebated fuels are also heating oils for many thousands of homes so complete abolition of red to rely on white only, would be an administrative nightmare.

George ex nb Alton retired

[frangar]

If anyone fancies putting a base letter on here for us to amend slightly and send off then do feel free....I'm sure others are better with words than me!

[Momac]

Best keep quiet.

Then the government might quite correctly conclude  there is hardly any diesel used by boats and decide to not to bother with the expense of collecting the duty.  

Edited April 4, 2017 by MartynG

[furnessvale]

2 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Best keep quiet.

Then the government might quite correctly conclude  there is hardly any diesel used by boats and decide to not to bother with the expense of collecting the duty.  

Or they could just omit boats from the list of those entitled to use red!

George ex nb Alton retired

[DandV]

Once Brexited, UK could consider the NZ system.

Petrol is taxed at the point of sale so no additional road user charges are levied on petrol powered vehicles.

Road User Charges are levied on all other road vehicles as a fee per kilometer driven, at a rate dependent on the manufacturers gross laden weight for that vehicle. This is regardless of fuel type so even electric trolley buses pay road user charges.

There are some exemptions that allows  off public road vehicles such as airport crash tenders and agricultural harvesters, to use roads to reposition.   

Vehicles over 3.5 tonnes gross loaded weight (including trailers and semi trailers, are fitted with approved hubometers or approved electronic equivalents. Light road vehicles (under 3.5tonnes) must have a working distance recorder on their speedo.

Road User Charges must be payed in advance. Vehicle checks are made both roadside, in conjunction with other traffic enforcement, and at the mandatory periodic vehicle road fitness tests to ensure that the vehicle has not exceeded the kilometres already paid for. Penalties and the chances of getting caught are sufficient deterrent.

The advantages are that the heavy road damaging vehicles (including trailers and semi trailers ) pay in accordance with the considerable extra road wear they cause. Another advantage is that the distribution costs for diesel fuel is considerably reduced as there is no requirement for separate dyed diesel storage. This saving alone pays for administering the Road User Charge system.

It is of course unpopular with Road Haulage Companies because towed trailers and semi trailers are charged at a much higher rate then the incremental increase in fuel burn. It is also unpopular with those who use waste frying oil as fuel.

Don

 

 

 

 

 

[Robbo]

3 hours ago, DandV said:

Once Brexited, UK could consider the NZ system.

Petrol is taxed at the point of sale so no additional road user charges are levied on petrol powered vehicles.

Road User Charges are levied on all other road vehicles as a fee per kilometer driven, at a rate dependent on the manufacturers gross laden weight for that vehicle. This is regardless of fuel type so even electric trolley buses pay road user charges.

There are some exemptions that allows  off public road vehicles such as airport crash tenders and agricultural harvesters, to use roads to reposition.   

Vehicles over 3.5 tonnes gross loaded weight (including trailers and semi trailers, are fitted with approved hubometers or approved electronic equivalents. Light road vehicles (under 3.5tonnes) must have a working distance recorder on their speedo.

Road User Charges must be payed in advance. Vehicle checks are made both roadside, in conjunction with other traffic enforcement, and at the mandatory periodic vehicle road fitness tests to ensure that the vehicle has not exceeded the kilometres already paid for. Penalties and the chances of getting caught are sufficient deterrent.

The advantages are that the heavy road damaging vehicles (including trailers and semi trailers ) pay in accordance with the considerable extra road wear they cause. Another advantage is that the distribution costs for diesel fuel is considerably reduced as there is no requirement for separate dyed diesel storage. This saving alone pays for administering the Road User Charge system.

It is of course unpopular with Road Haulage Companies because towed trailers and semi trailers are charged at a much higher rate then the incremental increase in fuel burn. It is also unpopular with those who use waste frying oil as fuel.

Don

 

 

 

 

 

Wouldn't it be easier just to tax at the point of sale the diesel the same as petrol instead of tracking the mileage and admin nightmare of all the cars and lorries?  The more polluting and more mileage a vehicle does the more tax you would pay.   For those that use diesel off-road for genny like you could pay a different tax at the point of sale and the diesel could be dyed to detect misuse.  This sounds like a much better and simpler system.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Robbo

[WotEver]

2 minutes ago, Robbo said:

Wouldn't it be easier just to tax at the point of sale the diesel the same as petrol instead of tracking the mileage and admin nightmare of all the cars and lorries?  The more polluting and more mileage and vehicle does the more tax you would pay.   For those that use diesel off-road for genny like you could pay a different tax at the point of sale and the diesel could be dyed to detect misuse.  This sounds like a much better and simpler system.

Yes

I've long advocated a system that gets rid of the yearly RFL and replaces it with a 2p hike on fuel duty.

You have an inefficient engine? You'll pay more. You do a lot of miles? You'll pay more. You only use the vehicle occasionally? You'll pay less. 

I suspect the biggest protests would come from haulage companies who would effectively be forced to pay a sum commensurate with the damage they do to the roads for the first time. 

Anything must be simpler than this: http://www.fta.co.uk/export/sites/fta/_galleries/downloads/taxation/v149_2013.pdf

[Neil Smith]

Just like we do here then.

Neil!

That was in reply to robbo but to late 

Edited April 5, 2017 by Neil Smith

[Jerra]

8 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Yes

I've long advocated a system that gets rid of the yearly RFL and replaces it with a 2p hike on fuel duty.

You have an inefficient engine? You'll pay more. You do a lot of miles? You'll pay more. You only use the vehicle occasionally? You'll pay less. 

I suspect the biggest protests would come from haulage companies who would effectively be forced to pay a sum commensurate with the damage they do to the roads for the first time. 

Anything must be simpler than this: http://www.fta.co.uk/export/sites/fta/_galleries/downloads/taxation/v149_2013.pdf

What a good idea do you think it might catch on for using canals as well.    Paying CRT according to the amount you use the canal.

[peterboat]

9 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Yes

I've long advocated a system that gets rid of the yearly RFL and replaces it with a 2p hike on fuel duty.

You have an inefficient engine? You'll pay more. You do a lot of miles? You'll pay more. You only use the vehicle occasionally? You'll pay less. 

I suspect the biggest protests would come from haulage companies who would effectively be forced to pay a sum commensurate with the damage they do to the roads for the first time. 

Anything must be simpler than this: http://www.fta.co.uk/export/sites/fta/_galleries/downloads/taxation/v149_2013.pdf

Shame you didnt post the latest tax rates Tony it would have made your eyes water for expensive vehicles!

[WotEver]

8 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Shame you didnt post the latest tax rates Tony it would have made your eyes water for expensive vehicles!

That was just the first one I found. I posted it more to show the complexity as opposed to the actual rates. 

Here you go though: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/601885/Rates_of_vehicle_tax_for_cars__motorcycles__light_goods_vehicles_and_private_light_goods_vehicles_V149.pdf

Edited April 5, 2017 by WotEver
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[WotEver]

4 minutes ago, Jerra said:

What a good idea do you think it might catch on for using canals as well.    Paying CRT according to the amount you use the canal.

We'd have to have an 'enjoyometer' though, to make that work. The more you enjoy yourself the more you pay until the two sides reach equilibrium. 

[cuthound]

41 minutes ago, WotEver said:

We'd have to have an 'enjoyometer' though, to make that work. The more you enjoy yourself the more you pay until the two sides reach equilibrium. 

If the number of people on this forum moaning about anything and everything inland waterways related is representative of all inland waterways users,  then the use of an "enjoyometer" should ensure red diesel for inland waterways use is tax free