Canal & River Trust sets out plans to review boat licensing

[Machpoint005]

The longer the boat, the more of a visitor mooring it takes up. Isn't that sufficient justification for a sliding scale of licence fees?

[MtB]

3 hours ago, Athy said:

By George, I think he's got it! Yes, a principle much honoured, though not publicly, in France. In fact, they may have invented it. Lest we forget, the tax's correct name was the Council Tax; I guess its nickname came from that 14th century fracas.

 

Yeahbut, Council tax was dubbed the 'poll tax' because like the Poll Tax, Council Tax was a tax on each human bean simply for existing. If you had a head, you had to pay the tax. All other taxes depend on you owning or doing something.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[MtB]

3 hours ago, Athy said:

Where did you get your new avatar from? It's giving me Vertigo.

 

At last, someone has commented on it. I should have known it would be you!

[Captain Pegg]

3 hours ago, Athy said:

By George, I think he's got it! Yes, a principle much honoured, though not publicly, in France. In fact, they may have invented it. Lest we forget, the tax's correct name was the Council Tax; I guess its nickname came from that 14th century fracas.

Surely Council Tax is what replaced it? It's correct name was the Community Charge.

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Surely Council Tax is what replaced it? It's correct name was the Community Charge.

 

Agreed. But Poll Tax was the correct term for it, even though it was given the euphemism "Community Charge".

Council tax is a tax on property, not on your head.

[BruceinSanity]

15 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Surely Council Tax is what replaced it? It's correct name was the Community Charge.

Beat me to it. Council Tax is what we pay these days and is a repackaged Domestic Rates, so a property tax.

[Athy]

Yes, you're right, Community Charge it was. Thanks for reminding me.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

5 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yeahbut, Council tax was dubbed the 'poll tax' because like the Poll Tax, Council Tax was a tax on each human bean simply for existing. If you had a head, you had to pay the tax. All other taxes depend on you owning or doing something.

As I said earlier, there was a way to avoid the odious Poll Tax and that was not to get yourself on the register, that was in fact the whole purpose of the idea, sod all to do with fairness. If you have someone living in a mansion which under the rating system would have been paying thousands in rates now has to pay what is effectively loose change he will be all for the system. If however you have someone living in a grotty flat in Camden paying exorbitant rent for which the landlord would have previously paid the rates now having to fork out an extra £300 a year unless he 'disappears' from the register, what is he likely to do? not rocket science was it. So the traditional Tory voters remain on the register and the traditional Labour voters disappear.

[Jerra]

33 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

As I said earlier, there was a way to avoid the odious Poll Tax and that was not to get yourself on the register, that was in fact the whole purpose of the idea, sod all to do with fairness. If you have someone living in a mansion which under the rating system would have been paying thousands in rates now has to pay what is effectively loose change he will be all for the system.

What about the little old lady living in the house she bought with her late husband and brought up the family in compared to the family at the other side of the semi with 4 working sons not to mention both parents.

Yes Council Tax is really fair compared to the Poll Tax (not).

[MtB]

2 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

As I said earlier, there was a way to avoid the odious Poll Tax and that was not to get yourself on the register, that was in fact the whole purpose of the idea, sod all to do with fairness.

Yeahbutnobut there is a constitutional obligation to be on the electoral roll. On another forum there is a long and heated debate about whether there is also a legal obligation to be on the electoral roll. Travelling people are cited as having an obvious difficulty here.

Your view is presumably that being on the electoral roll is optional. As a house owner myself I get a form each year from the council demanding to know who lives in my house and threatening me if I refuse to fill it in. The info is used to update the electoral roll

[Wanderer Vagabond]

9 hours ago, Jerra said:

What about the little old lady living in the house she bought with her late husband and brought up the family in compared to the family at the other side of the semi with 4 working sons not to mention both parents.

Yes Council Tax is really fair compared to the Poll Tax (not).

So why is she living in a house that is far too big for her? The 'bedroom tax' was supposed to stop the plebs doing this, why should your poor little old lady have the right to do so? If she wants to pay less Council Tax get a smaller place to live in, it is her choice (unlike Poll Tax in which if you couldn't afford it, tough luck you still have to pay).

[Bee]

9 hours ago, Jerra said:

What about the little old lady living in the house she bought with her late husband and brought up the family in compared to the family at the other side of the semi with 4 working sons not to mention both parent

Or what about the council worker living in a tiny 2 bed terrace with wife and 3 v. young children getting by on one wage who suddenly has to pay poll tax for 2 adults and doubles what he had to pay in rates. Not a hope of paying that lot and ended up having to borrow to keep the bailiffs out. Meanwhile the property developer in the big house down the lane saw his rates disappear and he just paid one lot of poll tax. I remember working out that we could lose the gas if we kept the electric. Can never forgive Portillo for that even if he does like trains now.

[Jerra]

1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

So why is she living in a house that is far too big for her? The 'bedroom tax' was supposed to stop the plebs doing this, why should your poor little old lady have the right to do so? If she wants to pay less Council Tax get a smaller place to live in, it is her choice (unlike Poll Tax in which if you couldn't afford it, tough luck you still have to pay).

I have a feeling that the bedroom tax only applied to certain folk as it didn't apply to me I didn't look into the details.

Reasons for living in the house:

They own it and people shouldn't be told how to use their own property.

The family all live away and have families themselves so the bedrooms are needed for their regular visits.

They having lived in that house for decades are emotionally attached to it like many of the people whgo refuse to leave houses for an area to be redeveloped.

I am sure if you put your mind to it you would find a few more those are just my first off the cuff suggestion.  Just a thought what would a liveaboard say if they were told the had to sell the 70 footer and buy a 45 footer just because the kid had gone to uni?

Poll Tax is a way of ensuring everybody pays their share unlike the situation where one council tax can cover 6 people or 1.  Perhaps you aren't in favour of everyone paying their fair share?

[Jerra]

52 minutes ago, Bee said:

Or what about the council worker living in a tiny 2 bed terrace with wife and 3 v. young children getting by on one wage who suddenly has to pay poll tax for 2 adults and doubles what he had to pay in rates. Not a hope of paying that lot and ended up having to borrow to keep the bailiffs out. Meanwhile the property developer in the big house down the lane saw his rates disappear and he just paid one lot of poll tax. I remember working out that we could lose the gas if we kept the electric. Can never forgive Portillo for that even if he does like trains now.

In a civilised society (which we once were) there would be state benefits etc to help those who are in desperate need.

Alternatively you could say don't have children until you are in a position to afford them as most people do.  Take your pick of which of the 2 alternatives you like best.

[Arthur Marshall]

19 minutes ago, Jerra said:

I have a feeling that the bedroom tax only applied to certain folk as it didn't apply to me I didn't look into the details.

The "bedroom tax" only applied to people on benefits of some kind. It's only "poor" people who shouldn't be allowed to live where they want, anyone with enough money to buy or lucky enough to inherit their house should obviously be allowed to live wherever they like. 

[Boat&Bikes]

9 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

The "bedroom tax" only applied to people on benefits of some kind. It's only "poor" people who shouldn't be allowed to live where they want, anyone with enough money to buy or lucky enough to inherit their house should obviously be allowed to live wherever they like. 

This sounds correct to me.

Ian.

[Momac]

I agree the so called ' bedroom tax' is not applicable to people who own the house they live in.  You cant get housing benefit if you own your own home. Therefore the bedroom tax , which is reduction in the benefit cannot be applied.

 

[Jess--]

11 hours ago, Jerra said:

What about the little old lady living in the house she bought with her late husband and brought up the family in compared to the family at the other side of the semi with 4 working sons not to mention both parents.

As a single occupant under most (if not all) council rules she would receive a 25-50% discount on her council tax bill

[Slim]

10 minutes ago, Jess-- said:

As a single occupant under most (if not all) council rules she would receive a 25-50% discount on her council tax bill

 

In many respects I'm similar to the little old lady (apart from gender). I've lived in my present house, bought by my late wife and myself, for 35 years. I receive a 25% rebate on my council tax. I don't know of a council that gives more than a 25% rebate. Next door to me are a family of 4 (2 parents, 2 adult working children), Between them they have 3 reasonably new cars. Opposite me is another family of 4 (2 parents, 2 adult working children). They have 4 reasonably new cars, Jaguar, Volvo, BMW and go faster Seat. As it happens I never agreed with the Poll Tax but I do think that things are a little unfair somewhere along the line.

So far as the original point of licencing is concerned I feel that widebeams should pay more as should cc ers

 

Where's my tin hat

 

[Bee]

1 hour ago, Jerra said:

In a civilised society (which we once were) there would be state benefits etc to help those who are in desperate need.

Alternatively you could say don't have children until you are in a position to afford them as most people do.  Take your pick of which of the 2 alternatives you like best.

Thing is with the second point is that if you have children when you can afford them and then the government pulls the rug out from under you then its not really you that's being irresponsible. Anyway, now that I am getting my pension I am finally in a position to afford to have a family. It is a serious point though, the age at which people have children is getting later and later, We were in our 30s and fairly poor when we started and our eldest and his wife are both in their 30s and broke but have just announced that they are expecting their first child - They have proper careers as well. A few years ago having children at that age was quite unusual and carried a higher risk of problems. We do know people who put off having a family for so long that it never can happen now and that's quite sad. You could say that having a low income should disqualify people from having kids but that's a bit harsh.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

11 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Yeahbutnobut there is a constitutional obligation to be on the electoral roll. On another forum there is a long and heated debate about whether there is also a legal obligation to be on the electoral roll. Travelling people are cited as having an obvious difficulty here.

Your view is presumably that being on the electoral roll is optional. As a house owner myself I get a form each year from the council demanding to know who lives in my house and threatening me if I refuse to fill it in. The info is used to update the electoral roll

I think that I did put on my original post (can't give the number anymore) a line saying,"... they are also avoidable (not necessarily legally) ...". Merely because it may be unlawful to drop off the Electorial Register doesn't mean that people wont do it if they are going to save £300 a year.

2 hours ago, Jerra said:

I have a feeling that the bedroom tax only applied to certain folk as it didn't apply to me I didn't look into the details.

Reasons for living in the house:

They own it and people shouldn't be told how to use their own property.

The family all live away and have families themselves so the bedrooms are needed for their regular visits.

They having lived in that house for decades are emotionally attached to it like many of the people whgo refuse to leave houses for an area to be redeveloped.

I am sure if you put your mind to it you would find a few more those are just my first off the cuff suggestion.  Just a thought what would a liveaboard say if they were told the had to sell the 70 footer and buy a 45 footer just because the kid had gone to uni?

Poll Tax is a way of ensuring everybody pays their share unlike the situation where one council tax can cover 6 people or 1.  Perhaps you aren't in favour of everyone paying their fair share?

OK so let us take the misapprehension that the Poll Tax was in any way fair (or ever intended to be) and extend the principal of flat rate taxation to income tax shall we? It will of course mean that I will then have to pay massively more income tax so that deserving cases such as Philip Green, et al can have a substantial cut in their tax liaibility (that they probably don't pay anyway) the end result being that we all 'fairly' pay exactly the same amount of income tax. Of course what I would then pay would be a considerably higher percentage of my disposable income than the percentage Mr Green might pay, but all in the interests of 'fairness' .

There is no argument you can put up that will ever convince me that Poll Tax is 'fair' so don't even bother trying.

If people choose to live in large houses with higher Council Tax liabilities, that is entirely their choice, other options are available.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Wanderer Vagabond

[furnessvale]

19 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yeahbut, Council tax was dubbed the 'poll tax' because like the Poll Tax, Council Tax was a tax on each human bean simply for existing. If you had a head, you had to pay the tax. All other taxes depend on you owning or doing something.

I'm not suggesting that Poll Tax is the answer but it is not true to say that people were taxed just for existing.

Each individual makes separate use of council facilities.  You walk down the street on a council provided footpath under council provided street lighting on your way to the council provided library.

It seems that the Poll Tax was a (botched) attempt to make each individual contribute to those facilities.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

.......You walk down the street on a council provided footpath under council provided street lighting on your way to the council provided library.

I pay over £2500 per annum Council Tax

It is almost 2 miles to our nearest footpath.

It is at least 2 miles to the nearest streetlight

Our local library was closed and is now run by volunteers a couple of days per week.

We rarely see a Police car and every rarer a police person ( or even a community person) on foot.

We are retired and have no school age children for 20+ years.

Nowt to do with council tax, but our nearest Post office closed down, and now operates a few hours per week in the bar of a pub 4 miles away, we had several banks, but now all have closed down with the nearest one being 10 miles away.

 

I am a bit like the UK in Europe - a net contributor (but with no refunds or rebates)

[furnessvale]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I pay over £2500 per annum Council Tax

It is almost 2 miles to our nearest footpath.

It is at least 2 miles to the nearest streetlight

Our local library was closed and is now run by volunteers a couple of days per week.

We rarely see a Police car and every rarer a police person ( or even a community person) on foot.

We are retired and have no school age children for 20+ years.

Nowt to do with council tax, but our nearest Post office closed down, and now operates a few hours per week in the bar of a pub 4 miles away, we had several banks, but now all have closed down with the nearest one being 10 miles away.

 

I am a bit like the UK in Europe - a net contributor (but with no refunds or rebates)

I fully agree with you but that was not the point of my post.  It sounds like you should be paying neither Council Tax nor Poll Tax!

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Jerra]

2 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

OK so let us take the misapprehension that the Poll Tax was in any way fair (or ever intended to be) and extend the principal of flat rate taxation to income tax shall we?

Why should the idea of flat rate taxation be transferred to other taxes and can you suggest a method which spreads the council part of taxation better than a poll tax?

A point I should have mentioned when somebody was suggesting the poor family would have to stump up more which they can't afford.  There is a big assumption being made that 2x poll tax will exceed 1x council tax.   It may well be less.  If we take the example above of 9 people in 3 houses.  Suppose the council tax on each house was £1000 the hard up family would be paying £1000.  However if you split the £3000  between 9 the family would pay £666.66 (or in the case of the example above only £333.33 as it is a single occupant).   So they would be better off.

Council tax is intended as a fee for local services etc unlike income tax which should be used to level out differences in wealth.