Colinwood Eurocruiser faulty steering danger

[Nige123]

I have had a 60ft xNow this may get removed by moderators I don't know & it's not a post to slag off any boat builder or supplier but in my mind it is a dangerous defect that I feel other boaters may need to know about. 12ft widebeam Euro Cruiser boat built for me by Colinwood boats (Liverpool boats of Liverpool) & used The New & Used Boat Co to coordinate things.

 

The boat is the best lay out we have seen for live-aboard use we feel & I know have seen all the flack about New & Used & Liverpool boats so went into this with eyes open......

 

Yes lots of small problems as we thought & the build quality of many items is like one would expect from a boat made in China....

But as I work on boats I can cope with most & fix them as they come up...

 

Things like not fitting an expansion tank to the Vetus 65hp engine so the water leaks out into the bilge is hard to believe & after speaking to Vetus & being told this would void ALL WARRANTY on a £15k engine I was a little upset...

 

But the bigger issue is the Steering ram mounting snapping off & this is welded to the top of the Diesel tank.

 

Our boat is on the River Thames & as many of you may know you get some very expensive boats (some in excess of £2million) so ramming one in a lock could be interesting & the litigation after...

 

The steering ram mounting on our boat was only tack welded in 4 corners & the heat of the MIG welder has not penetrated so while swinging the boat round on a mooring last weekend this mounting broke off.....

 

Now in normal use this may hold but in fast water or full throttle emergency what happened to our boat could & I think would happen to your boat......

 

So I would recommended anyone with a Colinwood euro cruiser boat or other Colinwood boat with a steering wheel make checks to see if your ram mounting is welded properly as when it snaps off you will loose steering & you could also rip a hole in the fuel tank.

 

Like I say this is a post that is to inform others of this very dangerous fault & as yet Colinwood have not come back to me with a plan to fix this problem, when they do I will post outcome, New & used has passed the buck to Colinwood as seems normal practice with this company.

 

I am worried as Alan Mc Norton or is it mcNaughton from Colinwood boats will not answer my calls or phone me back? you would think it would be important to them to get to the bottom of this one.......

[Drayke]

I have had a 60ft xNow this may get removed by moderators I don't know & it's not a post to slag off any boat builder or supplier but in my mind it is a dangerous defect that I feel other boaters may need to know about. 12ft widebeam Euro Cruiser boat built for me by Colinwood boats (Liverpool boats of Liverpool) & used The New & Used Boat Co to coordinate things.

 

The boat is the best lay out we have seen for live-aboard use we feel & I know have seen all the flack about New & Used & Liverpool boats so went into this with eyes open......

 

Yes lots of small problems as we thought & the build quality of many items is like one would expect from a boat made in China....

But as I work on boats I can cope with most & fix them as they come up...

 

Things like not fitting an expansion tank to the Vetus 65hp engine so the water leaks out into the bilge is hard to believe & after speaking to Vetus & being told this would void ALL WARRANTY on a £15k engine I was a little upset...

 

But the bigger issue is the Steering ram mounting snapping off & this is welded to the top of the Diesel tank.

 

Our boat is on the River Thames & as many of you may know you get some very expensive boats (some in excess of £2million) so ramming one in a lock could be interesting & the litigation after...

 

The steering ram mounting on our boat was only tack welded in 4 corners & the heat of the MIG welder has not penetrated so while swinging the boat round on a mooring last weekend this mounting broke off.....

 

Now in normal use this may hold but in fast water or full throttle emergency what happened to our boat could & I think would happen to your boat......

 

So I would recommended anyone with a Colinwood euro cruiser boat or other Colinwood boat with a steering wheel make checks to see if your ram mounting is welded properly as when it snaps off you will loose steering & you could also rip a hole in the fuel tank.

 

Like I say this is a post that is to inform others of this very dangerous fault & as yet Colinwood have not come back to me with a plan to fix this problem, when they do I will post outcome, New & used has passed the buck to Colinwood as seems normal practice with this company.

 

I am worried as Alan Mc Norton or is it mcNaughton from Colinwood boats will not answer my calls or phone me back? you would think it would be important to them to get to the bottom of this one.......

If you brought your boat through NBC should that not be their responsibility to have this fixed.

[BruceinSanity]

If you brought your boat through NBC should that not be their responsibility to have this fixed.

 

AIUI from other clients in a marina I know, the New and Used line is that they are just the agent for Collingwoods and responsibility for warranty work remains with the builder.

 

I'm not going to say anything else because it's all just hearsay around the marina, but as with all builders, it's a case of caveat emptor, I fear.

[Tony Brooks]

I see, like John Lewis is just an agent for whatever they retail so can avoid all warranty work - not.

 

If NBC are brokers for CWB then maybe they have a case but I think it is open to challenge. get hold of Citizens Advice and insist you get to talk to a qualified consumer protection person.

 

It is perfectly clear that UK and EU legislation require the vendor to ensure the goods are fit for purpose and must sort out any problems. Any manufacturer's warranty is over and above that specified in consumer protection legislation although fat too many retailers move heaven and earth to avoid that responsibility.

[bizzard]

Sounds like they may have put fuel in the tank to run and test the engine before welding the bracket on and tacked it on gingerly for fear of igniting the fuel, instead of a lovely hot proper continuous all around penetrating weld with an empty tank.

[peterboat]

Yes I had an engine issue with my boat from NAUBC they advertised it as a 65 barrus shire and it turns our it is a 50 barrus shire. All of the people in the chain just develop sloppy shoulders. Little Brown Mouse who built it had closed down, and their paperwork said it was a 65 but Barrus wont say what they supplied for my boat as plenty know all boat builder/fitters are fairly dodgy. The expansion tank is a serious issue not that the one supplied for me was big enough for the job happy days

 

Peter

Edited June 26, 2015 by peterboat

[Guest]

All????

 

Really?

[Nige123]

Well I have a promise of a phone call tomorrow & an engineer to come out on Monday but we will see....

 

& to answer one question the tank is welded in to the hull before the deck is welded on top so now the deck will need to have a hole cut in it to get access to the bracket....

[bargemast]

Sounds like they may have put fuel in the tank to run and test the engine before welding the bracket on and tacked it on gingerly for fear of igniting the fuel, instead of a lovely hot proper continuous all around penetrating weld with an empty tank.

 

They could have made a good weld on a full fuel tank too.

 

Peter.

[Jess--]

 

They could have made a good weld on a full fuel tank too.

 

Peter.

actually safer to weld a full tank than an empty one that has had fuel in it

[DHutch]

... this may get removed by moderators I don't know & it's not a post to slag off any boat builder or supplier but in my mind it is a dangerous defect that I feel other boaters may need to know about. ...

As long as the thread remains objective and on topic I see now reason why it should be removed. Its good advice and well worth checking, as well as a safety warning to any owner of a boat with such a steering system, as well as for members to give advice to you if you wish.

 

Daniel

[bizzard]

 

They could have made a good weld on a full fuel tank too.

 

Peter.

Quite so Peter but it's still a worrying thought when your actually doing it though.

[bargemast]

Quite so Peter but it's still a worrying thought when your actually doing it though.

 

Only if you think that you're waiting for an explosion, which won't happen, there aren't any vapours in a full tank.

 

In the Army I've seen them welding a full petrol tank too and that started a fire, but didn't explode either, a couple of already prepared soaking rags cured that too.

 

Never panic, be prepared with things like fire extinguisher, wet rags etc, and all will be well (I hope).

 

Peter.

[larkshall]

As to the welding issue full tank please. If I was doing it. I'm concerned about the gauge of steel this bracket it to be welded onto. The force on that ram can be terrific, as tanks are relatively lightweight steel. The flexing is going to be brutal. I'd want a reinforcing plate to cover most if not all of that tank. In fact an alternative mounting point.

Edited June 27, 2015 by larkshall

[X Alan W]

Is it feasible to either weld or bolt the ram mounting lug to the underside of the deck & not rely it being mounted on the fuel tank? or fabricate extra bracket parts to enable this type of mounting.to the deck & not involve the fuel tank as a load bearing mounting at all.

[peterboat]

All????

 

Really?

Think about it Martin how many times on here do you read of the sagas boats promised in a few weeks and baseplates not even laid so yes maybe overstating it but how about nearly all

 

Peter

[Nige123]

As to welding...... I have welded race car sumps & had the vapour ignite & burn inside an engine... it was a fright I can tell you & the only good thing was it took all the dents & dings out of the sump in front of my eyes but then blew the rocker cover gaskets out on a big block Chevy motor.......

 

So I would remove the filler cap & fill the air gap with an inert gas such as Argon/Co2 to displace oxygen then it can't burn or catch fire... I have welded Petrol tanks with fuel inside in this way & got away with it....

 

As to welding a mounting that has a 65hp engine pushing on it with 30tons of boat to move I would think the force could be in the 100's of tons so seeing it tacked to the top of a 4mm thick fuel tank is not what I would think was a GOOD idea but what do I know?

 

I would weld a 10mm plate to 2 50mmx50mm sections of angle iron & use 4 bolts trough the top lip of the fuel tank & 4 bolts through the rear hull....

No welding near fuel & a bolt in fix that would not need the deck cutting cut to get to it.... again what do I know right?

 

Well I do build hot rods & work on boats, So when I fit front suspension systems to cars I do what I think is good enough & then do some more as I have seen front ends rip out of cars in the 1/4 mile with bad consequence to car & driver...

 

Monday is the new day for a phone call and appointment with an engineer so update soon.....

[Guest]

Think about it Martin how many times on here do you read of the sagas boats promised in a few weeks and baseplates not even laid so yes maybe overstating it but how about nearly all

 

Peter

I don't know.

 

One rarely hears on the internet about when people buy something and it all goes well, but sure as eggs is eggs when something goes wrong people will take to the Internet very quickly.

 

There is an old saying that goes something like 'one satisfied customer will tell one person where a dissatisfied customer will tell a dozen"

 

I'm not sure I would even go with nearly all TBH, but obviously issues are common amongst the boat building industry.

 

That said if you compare complaints about newly built boats with newly built caravans and motor homes that appear in Internet forums the boatbuilders would appear to be near perfect.

[Murflynn]

 

 

As to welding a mounting that has a 65hp engine pushing on it with 30tons of boat to move I would think the force could be in the 100's of tons so seeing it tacked to the top of a 4mm thick fuel tank is not what I would think was a GOOD idea but what do I know?

 

 

As I read it this is a steering ram so presumably a mounting for a hydraulic piston or for anchoring the end of a morse steering cable. The force would be no more than you would exert on the tiller at the same radius. Nevertheless it should have been fully welded.

[by'eck]

As I read it this is a steering ram so presumably a mounting for a hydraulic piston or for anchoring the end of a morse steering cable. The force would be no more than you would exert on the tiller at the same radius. Nevertheless it should have been fully welded.

 

And there's the rub as its likely to be small.

[Murflynn]

 

And there's the rub as its likely to be small.

the stroke is likely to be about 250mm, so the radius will be about 200mm. I guess the biggest force it will have to deal with is kickback if the rudder hits something, so I would guess about 200kg at that radius would be reasonable, say 1000kg including a safety factor of 500%. Not 100's of tonnes though.

[DHutch]

the stroke is likely to be about 250mm, so the radius will be about 200mm. I guess the biggest force it will have to deal with is kickback if the rudder hits something, so I would guess about 200kg at that radius would be reasonable, say 1000kg including a safety factor of 500%. Not 100's of tonnes though.

There will be relief valves on the hydraulics if its anything like the ones I have seen, certainly should do.

 

So the mount should be able take whatever force it takes to open them (force = pressure x area) we.consideration to fatigue failure as well.

 

If not 100's tons it will be quite a bit.

 

Daniel

[Nige123]

well we are at 1pm & no phone call from Colingwood boats so you can see how fast they fix problems with £140K worth of boat......

 

Remember this when you order a new boat won't you folks....

 

To answer so posts.....

 

I have welded fuel tanks but I have filled them up with an inert gas first ie Argon or Co2 this displaces any oxygen & stops any chance of fire...

 

I would in fact just weld 2 50mmx50mm lengths of angle iron to a 10mm plate & bolt it in place to the lip on top of the fuel tank & bolt it trough the hull this would be better then a weld & would not need to deck being cut out to get at it.... but again what do I know?

the stroke is likely to be about 250mm, so the radius will be about 200mm. I guess the biggest force it will have to deal with is kickback if the rudder hits something, so I would guess about 200kg at that radius would be reasonable, say 1000kg including a safety factor of 500%. Not 100's of tonnes though.

ok maybe not 100's of tons but the best part of a tidy few I would say........

[nb Innisfree]

As I read it this is a steering ram so presumably a mounting for a hydraulic piston or for anchoring the end of a morse steering cable. The force would be no more than you would exert on the tiller at the same radius. Nevertheless it should have been fully welded.

I used a standard morse steering cable kit on our 60' narrowboat, radius a few inches and the ram fixed to the base of the taff rail with an exhaust clamp, solid as a rock and took all sorts of abuse for ten years, still the same as when fitted.

[Nige123]

Well Colingwood sent out a welder & he snotted the mounting back in place......

Not a very professional job but I'm told it will hold....

 

I have a list of items from trims falling off to no header tank being fitted to the engine making the warranty void so anyone buying a new boat from The N&UBC should insist on holding back the final payment for 2 months as trust me you are going to have problems & they will be slow to fix any you may have this is not just my experience but that of others that I have spoken to.....