Am I going to die...

[Ssscrudddy]

You may be already aware of this with all your analising research, but the old style clunk clunk engine is air cooled so no hot water, whereas a modern liquid called 1 will give you a nice tankful of hot water real quick (& much hotter than my immersion heater).

It's a pity you cant get a modern liquid cooled engine suitably sized & shaped for a traditional engine room, I reckon the engine room would look a bit daft with a 'small' engine resting on the floor.

[patty-ann]

Hi Martin

 

But I like to analyse , it makes me happy and it's one of the few things that I am actually any good at (I think! ) As to whether my level of analysing is 'over analysing' or as to whether it is an indicator that boat ownership is not for me (us) is probably not something that I will be relying on somebody that I don't know to tell me whilst I am in the midst of said analysing. Some people like to jump in feet first and damn the consequences, some like to parachute (after sending out a pre-recce party to check the lie of the ground). I'm guessing that you are more the former and me the latter but hopefully there is enough remaining space on the canals for both of us

 

 

 

Hi Richard...Nowt wrong with analysing or over analysing..I research everything to within an inch or less of its whatever..trouble I find is accumulation of data leads me round in circles as I can find so many apposing thoughts on same subject I get bewildered..i now what I know and then have to sift out wheat from chaff to make a decision..I still get it not quite right but then thats life.

My thoughts are..I did not go for chug chug engine due to lack of engine skills and the smell of diesel clinging to clothes not quite eau de cologne I like so even with chimney thingy still have fumes..does your better half have any views?.

I have engine under deck but do struggle with lifting cover cos its heavy but its a new modern engine and all I have to do is turn stern greaser thingy and tighten two nut things, check oil and top up antifreeze..but thats all I am happy to.

Ref fumes, I do get bit concerned in locks particularly if the son who ignores my requests with me as he winds paddles so fast have to use few revs when boat bounces around and diesel fumes collect..I do consider implications of inhaling. Tunnels can also hold onto fumes especially if several boats going through.

In between loverly countryside and fresh air....motorways snarled up probably greater impact on health..inner cities...

I do suffer smokey stove syndrome but need purchase taller chimney as believe due to back draft as only have silly sized one.

So guess what Im saying is research away..I think thats great..and I went for new build cos then I could learn everything every step of way..forgotton lots but knew it at time and all my decisions based on research.

Good Luck, Patty

[Athy]

Er, have you been reading Wikipaedia again, Ssscrudddy? I don't know where else you could get such misleading information from.

My boat's engine certainly goes clunk clunk. It is most certainly old style, as the design dates back to 1931. But it is most certainly water cooled and heats domestic water through a calorifier. It is a Gardner 2LW by the way. Yes, you can get a new engine suitably sized and shaped for an engine room: the Russell Newbery DM2 if you want truly trad, the Beta Tug JD3 if you want modern dressed up to look trad. Both are water cooled.

 

Richard, you can get engine exhaust chimneys filled with what's known as a cutter. This is a semicircular band of metal mounted fore-and-aft on the top of the chimney. It, as the name suggests, cuts or splits the exhaust emissions so that they leave the chimney sideways. Of course they may sometimes blow back into the steerer's face depending on the wind speed and direction. Perhaps a kind colleague whose computer skills are superior to mine (that's probably most of them) would post a photo of one. Our first boat had an old engine (a Petter PH2) whose exhaust came out through the counter, and it was smokier than our present through-the-roof set-up, especially in locks.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Athy

[dor]

When I had a boat with a DM2, which are quite smoky, (well this one was) I had a nice exhaust chimney with polished brass bands proudly mounted on the roof. The actual exhaust went through the hull side.

[alan_fincher]

You may be already aware of this with all your analising research, but the old style clunk clunk engine is air cooled so no hot water, whereas a modern liquid called 1 will give you a nice tankful of hot water real quick (& much hotter than my immersion heater).

 

It's a pity you cant get a modern liquid cooled engine suitably sized & shaped for a traditional engine room, I reckon the engine room would look a bit daft with a 'small' engine resting on the floor.

 

Well actually only a few types of older engines are air cooled, (e.g. Lister H series, Armstrong AS types etc), and probably more are water cooled.

 

However the water cooling is often raw water, not skin tank, making heating domestic water more of a challenge, but not impossible.

 

Not to everybody's taste, but the Beta JD3 or BD3 tug engine is often considered as looking not out of place in an engine room, and being "modern". Many think they don't really replicate a truly traditional sound though.

[Phil Ambrose]

I wonder why your default position is so frequently rudeness and scorn?

Martin adopts the style of " Tell it how it is " he is blunt but truthful, not bothering to dress it up.

Phil

[Leo No2]

Er, have you been reading Wikipaedia again, Ssscrudddy? I don't know where else you could get such misleading information from.

My boat's engine certainly goes clunk clunk. It is most certainly old style, as the design dates back to 1931. But it is most certainly water cooled and heats domestic water through a calorifier. It is a Gardner 2LW by the way. Yes, you can get a new engine suitably sized and shaped for an engine room: the Russell Newbery DM2 if you want truly trad, the Beta Tug JD3 if you want modern dressed up to look trad. Both are water cooled.

 

Richard, you can get engine exhaust chimneys filled with what's known as a cutter. This is a semicircular band of metal mounted fore-and-aft on the top of the chimney. It, as the name suggests, cuts or splits the exhaust emissions so that they leave the chimney sideways. Of course they may sometimes blow back into the steerer's face depending on the wind speed and direction. Perhaps a kind colleague whose computer skills are superior to mine (that's probably most of them) would post a photo of one. Our first boat had an old engine (a Petter PH2) whose exhaust came out through the counter, and it was smokier than our present through-the-roof set-up, especially in locks.

 

Sculptor's small exhaust with cutter.

 

[Athy]

Bless you Leo, thanks!

 

Alan, the presence of a Tkh might well lure me to the railway, because I have never seen one, whereas I have seen innumerable Black Fives and Hunslet tanks. I have just looked up the Tkh on the internet and it looks a pleasingly chunky thing, reminiscent of the USA class locos which used to operate on the Southern region.

 

That said, it would be good if they offered more variety of engines. Perhaps they are a bit skint and can't afford to have any more overhauled? I believe they have a second Tkh but I'm not sure if it works.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Athy

[Ray T]

Richardcn, if you are worried about exhaust fumes try a day out on this:

 

 

http://www.willowwrentraining.co.uk/steamexperience.html

[alan_fincher]

In my experience, a cutter which "splits" the exhaust is more likely to result in it blowing towards the steerer, for them to breathe in. This seems to apply for any length of pipe, as it results in the smoke being both lower than if blown upwards vertically, and now more "static" so easily caught by any wind.

 

Although I like the traditional look of a cutter, I tend to run without one, as the exhaust is then far more likely to rise enough that it largely passes overhead.

 

However in some tunnels it is very necessary to switch to a pipe that does have a cutter, as an unguarded vertical pipe can bring all the accumulated crap from the tunnel roof down upon you, and you emerge looking like a reject from the Black and White Minstrel Show!

[LEO]

Hi,

 

This is quite a reasonable question - and yes, there can be real problems standing on the counter with a roof mounted exhaust. The problems stem from both exhaust smoke and hot 'smuts' blown out (painful if one lands in your eye).

 

A 'cutter' on a long pipe can increase problems with smoke, a well known boater suggested removing this on mine and the smoke does seem to blow higher and be less of a problem,

 

I would not stand on the counter with a back cabin stove alight.

 

No matter what type of engine your run and where the exhaust pipe comes out the increase in the number of boats means there are real problems in tunnels - last time I used the Blisworth tunnel a few years ago it was late afternoon I was following a couple of boats and met two - visibility was virtually nil due to diesel fumes - 20 minutes later, gasping, eyes streaming, I thought perhaps it's better to wait and make and early morning passage.

 

It's not much fun entering or sharing a double lock when the other boat has a smokey engine with a side exhaust.

 

Seems crazy to me, one gives up the 'evil weed', won't allow smoking in public places, has the London Low emission zone to cope with but we happily stand by smoking exhausts and chimneys........when boating.

 

It won't be long before the various London Borough's who are blessed with canals realise what a problem fumes from boat engines can be - if car engines have to be switched off when stationary for a short while, the Authorities will have a field day with boat engines (smokey or not).

 

Yep, I have a roof mounted exhaust.....................but try to be careful to avoid inhaling the fumes.

 

Have fun

 

L.

[furnessvale]

 

 

 

However the water cooling is often raw water, not skin tank, making heating domestic water more of a challenge, but not impossible.

 

 

Certainly do-able. SANDBACH has a raw water cooled engine which has been fitted with a heat exchanger and calorifier. This gives hot water and makes winterising easy as the engine/exchanger/calorifier are protected by anti freeze in a closed circuit.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Athy]

 

 

Not to everybody's taste, but the Beta JD3 or BD3 tug engine is often considered as looking not out of place in an engine room, and being "modern". Many think they don't really replicate a truly traditional sound though.

A greeno for your immaculate diplomacy, Mr. F! Do you mean "It looks nearly right but sounds like a tractor"? If so, I'd agree - though it does sound like an OLD tractor.

[furnessvale]

In my experience, a cutter which "splits" the exhaust is more likely to result in it blowing towards the steerer, for them to breathe in. This seems to apply for any length of pipe, as it results in the smoke being both lower than if blown upwards vertically, and now more "static" so easily caught by any wind.

 

Although I like the traditional look of a cutter, I tend to run without one, as the exhaust is then far more likely to rise enough that it largely passes overhead.

 

However in some tunnels it is very necessary to switch to a pipe that does have a cutter, as an unguarded vertical pipe can bring all the accumulated crap from the tunnel roof down upon you, and you emerge looking like a reject from the Black and White Minstrel Show!

Absence of a cutter also allows smoke rings to develop. In a deep lock, Sandbach would send up two columns of rings at a slight angle to each other, one from each cylinder.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[LEO]

Bless you Leo, thanks!

 

Alan, the presence of a Tkh might well lure me to the railway, because I have never seen one, whereas I have seen innumerable Black Fives and Hunslet tanks. I have just looked up the Tkh on the internet and it looks a pleasingly chunky thing, reminiscent of the USA class locos which used to operate on the Southern region.

 

That said, it would be good if they offered more variety of engines. Perhaps they are a bit skint and can't afford to have any more overhauled? I believe they have a second Tkh but I'm not sure if it works.

 

Sorry Athy we are sometimes confused but.........it Leo No2 who deserves the Thanks (for quite a bit around SB!).

 

L

[Athy]

 

Sorry Athy we are sometimes confused but.........it Leo No2 who deserves the Thanks (for quite a bit around SB!).

 

L

Yes, I was replying to her, as she had just posted the photo of her exhaust chimney. Thank you for the clarification.

[Guest]

I wonder why your default position is so frequently rudeness and scorn?

I am unsure as to where you come from but around these parts what you seem to define as 'rudeness and scorn' is more usually defined as plain speaking.

[arbutus]

Until recently I had a boat with a Gardner 2LW and a boatman’s cabin.

 

The boat was for holidays only.

 

I really, really didn’t like the exhaust coming through the roof.

I had a 28 inch exhaust pipe without a tunnel cutter so that the fumes went straight up. On days with little wind the exhaust fumes just hung about so that the steerer then had to travel through them and on many windy days I still caught the fumes.

The exhaust looked to be clean burning but the engine would of course still be converting al least a litre of diesel every hour into gasses which were then hanging about my head.

After a full days boating I would develop a cough, which was a bit worrying and my hair became very greasy.

I’m not a smoker and I think that with pubs and workplaces now being

non-smoking we have all become more used to breathing clean air.

 

Not having a tunnel cutter meant that spiders and brick dust gets dislodged from bridges and tunnels.

 

I did like having an engine room, the slow chug of the engine and the slow speed of the 22x22 propeller.

 

I thought that the BMC area could possibly be redesigned to be more modern and useful depending on how the rest of the boat was used.

 

I loved the stove in the BMC. It made cruising on a sunny but chilly day much more enjoyable. It also made the BMC cosy at night. The sulphurous fumes from the chimney by the steerer were not a problem, although a tin can used to extend the chimney would have been useful.

[koukouvagia]

I did wonder from time to time whether I was damaging my health breathing in all the exhaust from the Seffle. It was, I have to admit, a pretty filthy engine, despite being great fun. At the end of each day's boating I'd take my specs off to reveal two white rings.

 

However, what a difference when we fitted the Kelvin. There is absolutely no visible exhaust and after a day's boating the underside of the cutter is still shiny!

[Athy]

How come the engine fumes affected you but the sulphurous fumes from the stove chimney, much closer to you, didn't?

[furnessvale]

 

 

I thought that the BMC area could possibly be redesigned to be more modern and useful depending on how the rest of the boat was used.

 

 

With respect, redesign a back cabin and it is no longer a back cabin but just another bit of accommodation. Perhaps a convenient place to put the bathroom?

 

For myself, if I wasn't "into" historic boats and all their quirks, I would be on a boat far removed from these "traditional" copies you see knocking about.

 

A narrow beam Dutch barge with its convenient covered cockpit for rainy day cruising could be tempting.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[MtB]

I see Jim has just beat me to the comment I was about to post.

 

But I'll post anyway to agree with his point. The issue for the roof exhaust from my lovely vintage Kelvin is crystal clear and scent-free at all times.

 

I have no Idea how Mr Bergius managed this when every other engine manufacturer seemed incapable.

 

And as no-one else has mentioned it, calling the back cabin a 'boatman's cabin' is a faux pas. The term seems to be a modern one only cropping up in recent times. On a working boat there was only one cabin, and it was obvious who it was for. On the other hand it given there was only one, calling it a back cabin introduces a tautology too in my view.. (Is that the right word to use?) Just 'cabin' would suffice!

 

Should I stop digging now?

 

 

MtB

 

 

 

 

MtB

[furnessvale]

 

 

And as no-one else has mentioned it, calling the back cabin a 'boatman's cabin' is a faux pas. The term seems to be a modern one only cropping up in recent times. On a working boat there was only one cabin, and it was obvious who it was for. On the other hand it given there was only one, calling it a back cabin introduces a tautology too in my view.. (Is that the right word to use?) Just 'cabin' would suffice!

 

Should I stop digging now?

 

 

MtB

 

 

 

 

MtB

I did make an oblique reference by renaming it in my reply.

 

Some boats did also have a fore cabin.

 

I'll take your shovel off you! :-)

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Athy]

I see Jim has just beat me to the comment I was about to post.

 

But I'll post anyway to agree with his point. The issue for the roof exhaust from my lovely vintage Kelvin is crystal clear and scent-free at all times.

 

calling it a back cabin introduces a tautology too in my view.. (Is that the right word to use?)

 

 

 

 

 

 

MtB

Yes, "view" is absolutely the right word.

 

Oh, that one beginning with "t" ain't bad either.

 

Mr. Vale, with respect to your considerable boating experience, I don't see the logic of your remark "redesign a back cabin and it is no longer a back cabin". of course it is: it hasn't suddenly moved to the front, has it? We sleep in the back cabin of Trojan and it is by no means a trad one (no stove or table, 4'6" wide cross bed) but it's still the back cabin.

[mark99]

Went through Blisworth Tunnel yesterday very early with the cold Gardner..... as quick as you like...felt sorry for the next chap.

 

Back Cabin to sleep in.... well we have three place to sleep on the bote and I always default to Back Cabin. Very cosy.

Edited April 27, 2015 by mark99