Police boarding your boat - is this allowed?

[Phil Ambrose]

They have nothing better to do, and probably only have any say when having the freedom of the internet.

(chuckles to myself) have a virtual greenie.

Phil

[Guest]

 

Years ago a good school chum of mine who was an LA County Deputy Sheriff chased a fleeing suspect into one of my rental houses. He was telling me the story over a beer a few days later and he laughingly made the comment, "Yeah, I took the time to open the door because I knew it was your house. Usually we just kick them in. It's a lot more fun and makes a better impression on those inside."

 

The realities of police work....

 

I read an interesting statistic a few days ago. The police in South Carolina (pop. 8.3 million) have shot and killed more people in the last two years than the entire UK police forces have since 1900. (I don't know how that statistic jibes with what was going on in Northern Ireland for so long, but that's what the article said.) This country is becoming so fascist, so fast. I can't wait for the day I can leave here. The point is, any time you want to complain about your police, just be glad you don't have to put up cops who are racist veterans with PTSD who'll blow you away at the drop of a hat just because they can. If you've got the stomach for it, the first minute of this will make you want to cry.

 

Sorry if I wandered too far off topic.

 

Staying off topic for a second.

 

Making the news over here this week is the unbelievable footage of Micheal Slager shooting Walter Scott in the back as he his running away from him. Slager of course tries immediately to claim the firing of shots was justified but the incident being caught on camera by a bystander shows he was a bare faced liar and has now been charged with murder. It would appear that elements (perhaps very small elements) of the police in the USA are simply out of control and feel they can act with impunity. Quite frightening really.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-32220488

[Mrs Tawny Owl]

I see today the BBC say the police have released the recording from the cop car dash cam.

 

it too shows him running away. It doesn't show the officer firing the shots, but apparently the shots can be clearly heard.

Fairly damming proof along with the other video, hope he gets banged up for life. I wonder if they have the death penalty in that state, can't be bothered to look it up.

 

Back on topic.

 

I'm never sure how to contact someone inside a boat, I prefer to knock on the door as it seems more polite to me than knocking on the roof. With a narrow boat that's often easy to do without stepping on the boat.

 

I don't go on board other boats without being invited, well not unless I know the owners, but I think I would step on to an open front or back deck with the intention of contacting the owners. I wouldn't go crawling into cratch cover or pram hoods though.

 

Knocking on the roof seems rather rude, and I would probably consider the decks ads being equivalent to the front drive of a house. I'm not really entering the home by standing on the deck to know on the door. That's why I wouldn't enter a cratch, that's become part of the inside of the home.

 

The police woman was probably thinking the same thing. Lets face it banging on the roof of a parked car might indicate to those inside they were doing something the police didn't approve of, and would be asked to move on. maybe she thought knocking on a door is more polite than bangin on a roof!

 

Sue

[Paul C]

I think there's a difference between standing on the deck outside the cabin and being inside the cabin.

[Guest]

I see today the BBC say the police have released the recording from the cop car dash cam.

 

it too shows him running away. It doesn't show the officer firing the shots, but apparently the shots can be clearly heard.

Fairly damming proof along with the other video, hope he gets banged up for life. I wonder if they have the death penalty in that state, can't be bothered to look it up.

 

Back on topic.

 

I'm never sure how to contact someone inside a boat, I prefer to knock on the door as it seems more polite to me than knocking on the roof. With a narrow boat that's often easy to do without stepping on the boat.

 

I don't go on board other boats without being invited, well not unless I know the owners, but I think I would step on to an open front or back deck with the intention of contacting the owners. I wouldn't go crawling into cratch cover or pram hoods though.

 

Knocking on the roof seems rather rude, and I would probably consider the decks ads being equivalent to the front drive of a house. I'm not really entering the home by standing on the deck to know on the door. That's why I wouldn't enter a cratch, that's become part of the inside of the home.

 

The police woman was probably thinking the same thing. Lets face it banging on the roof of a parked car might indicate to those inside they were doing something the police didn't approve of, and would be asked to move on. maybe she thought knocking on a door is more polite than bangin on a roof!

 

Sue

 

Boaters often used to knock on our side hatches which we were fortunate to have on both sides.

[kevinl]

Does anyone really expect the police or indeed anyone other than boaters to understand our etiquette of not going onto a boat without being asked?

The police went on the front deck (I understand) not in the boat, so the same as walking up the path to a front door to knock and ask about a missing person.

There is a thing called implied right od access, I never consented to anyone entering my property (path/garden) to knock on the door but they do or to put letters and leaflets through it, unless there is a sign to the contrary then anyone can do so, in this case the police lady did what she thought was the right thing and if boaters do it differently then there you go. The big picture is they are looking for a vulnerable adult who may have come to harm, far more important than; should you knock from the outside or any feeling of having had your privacy infringed.

K

[Delta9]

Does anyone really expect the police or indeed anyone other than boaters to understand our etiquette of not going onto a boat without being asked?

 

Yes. Before i became a boater I wouldn't have boarded anyone's boat without being invited. It seems like common sense/politeness.

[Wanted]

Reverse layout cruiser stern- even my Wife calls the front the back!

[RLWP]

Reverse layout cruiser stern- even my Wife calls the front the back!

 

Hah! Come and spend a few days on Tawny. It still confuses me after a while if I have been sitting in the cabin trying to work out which end is which

 

Richard

[Machpoint005]

Total rubbish.

I have been through this with the police themselves. They are not allowed on any part of "dwelling place" unless invited, or with a warrant.

 

Is a boat a "place", though?

[Wanted]

 

Hah! Come and spend a few days on Tawny. It still confuses me after a while if I have been sitting in the cabin trying to work out which end is which

 

Richard

 

I once watched my cat run out of the boat turn right and into the cut, we forgot to tell him we were on the way home!

[Machpoint005]

Reverse layout cruiser stern- even my Wife calls the front the back!

 

I have the mirroring difficulty - we used to have a share of a reverse layout boat, but ours is conventional.

[mayalld]

 

It is largely a matter of the common law, to which no links would be found because enshrined in case law such as Moore v Robinson, 1831, affirming that "the master of a ship might bring trespass " even "in the case of a mere boat plying on a canal."

 

The most specific Statutory legislation is within the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 -

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/21/section/104

 

104 Unauthorised presence on board ship.

 

Where a United Kingdom ship or a ship registered in any other country is in a port in the United Kingdom and a person who is neither in Her Majesty’s service nor authorised by law to do so—

 

Is a Constable not "In Her Majesty's service"?

[mango]

 

Hah! Come and spend a few days on Tawny. It still confuses me after a while if I have been sitting in the cabin trying to work out which end is which

 

Richard

I suggest adding more water to the whisky.

[Bettie Boo]

Bettie I totally understand your question and why you asked it. It's a strange world when you move aboard a boat, with a lot of conventions that only boatie folk understand. We had a coup!e of friends visit us, and we could hear them discuss as they approached the boat what to do. "Is there a doorbell?" "How do we let them know we're here?" was what we heard loud and clear before we appeared before them.

 

We'd never dream of stepping aboard a boat uninvited (unlike our dog!) but like you say it's no big deal in the right circumstances

 

That's it Ange, we weren't "upset" that she had boarded the boat under the circumstances, it was the conversation we had after which lead to my questioning as to whether it was "legal" (for lack of a better term) for them to board a boat without having suspicions of an illegal act in progress or having taken place on/in the boat. It did startle me from the moment of realizing someone had boarded the boat before realizing it was a Police Officer

 

One of the contributing factors in our conversation was "thank god, you put the top back on the side front locker or she could have done herself real injury stepping into that open locker on top of the loosely piled kindling & spare ropes". Which he had done only a few minutes before. Which then lead to who would have been at fault if she had injured herself - hence my post. I appreciate I didn't make reference to any of that in my OP, as I felt it would be too easy to get side tracked into the "who's to blame" game, and I really was just looking for a simple answer to what I felt I had asked in the most simplest of terms. I even tried to keep it lighthearted by putting in the bit about Dave's newly painted gunwhales (to no avail). Nigel M. has kindly posted the relevant information I was after in an easy to understand format.

 

Of course we also discussed the amount of missing people we have been questioned about since rejoining the GU mid November, which must be at least 5 or 6 times that we've been asked if we've noticed so and so on the tow path. It's always a sad thing to think about the person and the effect it must be having on their loved ones.

 

I don't actually remember how or when I gained the knowledge that it is a definite "no no" to step on board a boat without being invited; it is something I've known for years. Long before we ever thought of buying a narrow boat. Maybe it's something I picked up back in Canada were I spent a fair bit of time at the local Yachting club - I really don't remember.

 

Having a cousin in the RCMP, I would like to think I have a fair amount of respect for the police and am not one who goes about bad mouthing them willy nilly & most certainly wasn't the intention in my OP

 

Anyway, thanks for reading the OP in the sediment it was meant to be, and not tried to read anything else into it; thankfully it seems a fair amount have as well.

[the barnacle]

we had the police call at our house recently - they walked up my drive and stood on my door step and knocked - isnt it the same - now if they had entered they would of been out of order, However i dont see they had the need to step aboard when they could of knocked the side or window so i guess it was out of order. and my house compare isnt relevant before the "usual Suspects" hjump on me lol. -

 

hope you are enjoying the good weather we have been having, make the most of it it might not last to long.

[Guest]

we had the police call at our house recently - they walked up my drive and stood on my door step and knocked - isnt it the same - now if they had entered they would of been out of order, However i dont see they had the need to step aboard when they could of knocked the side or window so i guess it was out of order. and my house compare isnt relevant before the "usual Suspects" hjump on me lol. -

 

hope you are enjoying the good weather we have been having, make the most of it it might not last to long.

 

I don't see why any body would jump on that because I think the 'Usual suspects' (whoever they actually are) had already made the exact same comparison, which seems valid to me anyway.

[Mike Todd]

Which is not the circumstances the OP enquired about.

 

She asked about a general 'right' to board a boat. NOT about a right to enter a boat if they suspect a crime is in progress or about to be committed.

 

To have the 'right' to board the boat they would have needed to Have reasonable grounds to believe or suspect Betty was harbouring the missing person, whereas it's pretty obvious they were actually just making general enquiries.

I would have thought that if anyone did what you decribed (whether or not a police officer) the worst you could do is sue for trespass. As this is a civil matter you would have to demonstrate damages. In the case cited, a tin of paint might be the issue!

[the barnacle]

 

I don't see why any body would jump on that because I think the 'Usual suspects' (whoever they actually are) had already made the exact same comparison, which seems valid to me anyway.

 

Thank you for the reply to my post - i was just joking - for some reason i find the term "usual Suspects " quite funny and smile every time i read it.

[Guest]

 

Thank you for the reply to my post - i was just joking - for some reason i find the term "usual Suspects " quite funny and smile every time i read it.

 

If you ever find out who they are let us know though wont you?

[Wanderer Vagabond]

 

It is largely a matter of the common law, to which no links would be found because enshrined in case law such as Moore v Robinson, 1831, affirming that "the master of a ship might bring trespass " even "in the case of a mere boat plying on a canal."

 

The most specific Statutory legislation is within the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 -

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/21/section/104

 

104 Unauthorised presence on board ship.

 

Where a United Kingdom ship or a ship registered in any other country is in a port in the United Kingdom and a person who is neither in Her Majesty’s service nor authorised by law to do so—

 

 

( a ) goes on board the ship without the consent of the master or of any other persons authorised to give it; or

( b ) remains on board the ship after being requested to leave by the master, a constable, an officer authorised by the Secretary of State or an officer of customs and excise,

 

he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.

 

It needs to be understood that for this and one other section only, the term “United Kingdom ship” carries a different meaning to everywhere else in the Act. For the purposes of “Safety & health on ships”, s.85 provides;

 

“(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations (in this Act referred to as “safety regulations”) make such provision as he considers appropriate for all or any of the following purposes—

 

(a ) for securing the safety of United Kingdom ships and persons on them, and for protecting the health of persons on United Kingdom ships;"

 

Amongst such purposes are those governing: “( g ) the access to, presence in and egress from a ship, and different parts of it, of persons of any description;”

 

For these purposes the definition applying is:

 

“(2) In subsection (1) above “United Kingdom ship” means a ship which—

( a ) is registered in the United Kingdom; or

( b ) is not registered under the law of any country but is wholly owned by persons each of whom is—

(i) a British citizen, a British Dependent Territories citizen or a British Overseas citizen"

 

I would argue that that the definition applies to provisions from 85 to 108, falling as they all do under Part IV SAFETY. That would embrace all boats of whatever sort owned by British citizens, but the Act provides that these regulations are also: “( b ) for securing the safety of other ships and persons on them while they are within United Kingdom waters”. Foreign vessels in transit are excepted.

 

It has been argued by others that the expanded definition applies only to regulations NOT listed in the Act but which are to be promulgated separately by the Secretary of State. If that is so, then you would need to fit the primary definition of UK ship, which is “if the ship is registered in the United Kingdom under Part II.”

 

Throughout the Act, “ 'port' includes place", which would cover any inland waterway [though as we know, CaRT have difficulties with defining it).

 

“ ‘Ship’ includes every description of vessel used in navigation.” [bona fide or not!]

 

For all classes of vessel whether Part II registered or not, the situation would be covered under common law, but the above is the statutory position so far as I am aware of it. Obviously, if you were anticipating any need to push the issue hard, then you would be well advised to register your boat and cover all bases.

 

The power for CaRT personnel to over-ride the common law right of a ship's Master is governed by the BW Act 1983, Part II, s.7(2)( b ) :-

 

“An officer SHALL NOT enter upon any vessel in accordance with this subsection UNLESS –

 

(i) not less than 24 hours’ notice of such entry had been given to the master of the vessel; or

 

(ii) the officer has reason to believe that the vessel may be unsafe and that an immediate inspection is required.” [my capitalisation and bold for emphasis]

 

I did try looking for the post where had I listed all the statutory rights of entry onto ships, but I failed to find it, and I don't think there is sufficient interest to warrant my taking time out from what I am currently engaged on in order to work up a list all over again.

 

I haven't even had time to sip a whisky this evening.

Nigel, just to clarify I think that you 'll find for Police that Section of 17 PACE as authorisation to board a vessel will trump your MCA every time. The relevant Section begins by stating:-

 

"17 Entry for purpose of arrest etc.

 

(1)Subject to the following provisions of this section, and without prejudice to any other enactment, a constable may enter and search any premises for the purpose—....."

 

It then goes on list a a variety of grounds for entry including:- "....(e) of saving life or limb or preventing serious damage to property...." (covers looking for a misper)

 

In the preamble to the Act, Premises are defined as:-

 

"....In this Act— “premises” includes any place and, in particular, includes—

(a)any vehicle, vessel, aircraft or hovercraft....."

 

So I think entry to a canal boat would be well covered. Provided they have genuine grounds for doing so they will be coming aboard, whether I as skipper like it or not

 

 

 

 

Years ago a good school chum of mine who was an LA County Deputy Sheriff chased a fleeing suspect into one of my rental houses. He was telling me the story over a beer a few days later and he laughingly made the comment, "Yeah, I took the time to open the door because I knew it was your house. Usually we just kick them in. It's a lot more fun and makes a better impression on those inside."

 

The realities of police work....

 

I read an interesting statistic a few days ago. The police in South Carolina (pop. 8.3 million) have shot and killed more people in the last two years than the entire UK police forces have since 1900. (I don't know how that statistic jibes with what was going on in Northern Ireland for so long, but that's what the article said.) This country is becoming so fascist, so fast. I can't wait for the day I can leave here. The point is, any time you want to complain about your police, just be glad you don't have to put up cops who are racist veterans with PTSD who'll blow you away at the drop of a hat just because they can. If you've got the stomach for it, the first minute of this will make you want to cry.

 

Sorry if I wandered too far off topic.

You will find most Police Officers have a variety of stories of forced entries, my own favourite was following a call from a local alcoholic lady who was claiming that she was being held against her will at a local address. Upon arrival there sure enough from outside we could hear the two arguing inside of the flat where she was asking to leave and he (another alcoholic male) was telling her he couldn't find the door key. From outside I told him that he would either have to find the door key or call for a locksmith to open the door. He told me that he wasn't going to call any locksmith and he couldn't find the door key. He was advised that it wasn't a suggestion that he call the locksmith but an instruction! He didn't seem to take this on board and after about 25 minutes of negotiation I told him to either open the door, or I would and he would have to bear the consequences. Following his comment 'well do it then' I used what we used to call the big red key (official name 'Enforcer') which was rather effective in opening the door despite the fact that he had reinforced it since it took both the door and the frame into his flat (don't bother reinforcing the door if you don't reinforce the frame!). Once released the lady concerned decided that she didn't want to make any formal complaint against the male for False Imprisonment so having done necessary paperwork (it was classed as a 'domestic') we began to leave. The drunken male asked me who was coming to repair his door, to which the reply I gave was,"I don't know, who normally comes?" He did not seem to understand that since the entry was lawful and the occupant (him) was on the premises we had no obligation to repair the damage, so we didn't and the door remained wrecked for several weeks since he preferred to spend his money on alcohol rather than repairs.

 

Returning back to topic however, the etiquette of boating, I don't think I'd hold any particular malice against anyone who was unaware of the niceties. Having come from a sailing background how many people (unless they were specifically told) would be aware that if you are rafted up alongside another boat meaning you have to cross it to get ashore, would know to go across the bows rather than go across the stern? In sailing circles however it is considered 'very poor form' to do otherwise.

[Ray T]

 

Returning back to topic however, the etiquette of boating, I don't think I'd hold any particular malice against anyone who was unaware of the niceties. Having come from a sailing background how many people (unless they were specifically told) would be aware that if you are rafted up alongside another boat meaning you have to cross it to get ashore, would know to go across the bows rather than go across the stern? In sailing circles however it is considered 'very poor form' to do otherwise.

 

Slightly but boating etiquette was taught on a Yachmaster course I did.

 

Also working boaters never crossed the counter of another boat unless invited, usually the board in front of the engine room.

[jenlyn]

Nigel, just to clarify I think that you 'll find for Police that Section of 17 PACE as authorisation to board a vessel will trump your MCA every time. The relevant Section begins by stating:-

 

"17 Entry for purpose of arrest etc.

 

(1)Subject to the following provisions of this section, and without prejudice to any other enactment, a constable may enter and search any premises for the purpose—....."

 

It then goes on list a a variety of grounds for entry including:- "....(e) of saving life or limb or preventing serious damage to property...." (covers looking for a misper)

 

In the preamble to the Act, Premises are defined as:-

 

"....In this Act— “premises” includes any place and, in particular, includes—

(a)any vehicle, vessel, aircraft or hovercraft....."

 

So I think entry to a canal boat would be well covered. Provided they have genuine grounds for doing so they will be coming aboard, whether I as skipper like it or not

 

 

 

You will find most Police Officers have a variety of stories of forced entries, my own favourite was following a call from a local alcoholic lady who was claiming that she was being held against her will at a local address. Upon arrival there sure enough from outside we could hear the two arguing inside of the flat where she was asking to leave and he (another alcoholic male) was telling her he couldn't find the door key. From outside I told him that he would either have to find the door key or call for a locksmith to open the door. He told me that he wasn't going to call any locksmith and he couldn't find the door key. He was advised that it wasn't a suggestion that he call the locksmith but an instruction! He didn't seem to take this on board and after about 25 minutes of negotiation I told him to either open the door, or I would and he would have to bear the consequences. Following his comment 'well do it then' I used what we used to call the big red key (official name 'Enforcer') which was rather effective in opening the door despite the fact that he had reinforced it since it took both the door and the frame into his flat (don't bother reinforcing the door if you don't reinforce the frame!). Once released the lady concerned decided that she didn't want to make any formal complaint against the male for False Imprisonment so having done necessary paperwork (it was classed as a 'domestic') we began to leave. The drunken male asked me who was coming to repair his door, to which the reply I gave was,"I don't know, who normally comes?" He did not seem to understand that since the entry was lawful and the occupant (him) was on the premises we had no obligation to repair the damage, so we didn't and the door remained wrecked for several weeks since he preferred to spend his money on alcohol rather than repairs.

 

Returning back to topic however, the etiquette of boating, I don't think I'd hold any particular malice against anyone who was unaware of the niceties. Having come from a sailing background how many people (unless they were specifically told) would be aware that if you are rafted up alongside another boat meaning you have to cross it to get ashore, would know to go across the bows rather than go across the stern? In sailing circles however it is considered 'very poor form' to do otherwise.

Did you get a medal?

[NigelMoore]

Nigel, just to clarify I think that you 'll find for Police that Section of 17 PACE as authorisation to board a vessel will trump your MCA every time.

 

It will, yes, agreed – except that it is not a “trumping” of the MCA; it is an action in line with the MCA, which provides that there are those authorised to board the vessel without the master’s consent in specific circumstances [as with the example I gave of CaRT officials' rights to board].

 

I think you will find that my posting of that legislation was in response to a specific request for legislative backing to the common law position, and that I had noted: “I did try looking for the post where I had listed all the statutory rights of entry onto ships . . .” which had listed all such examples as you have just cited where authority HAS been given for certain authorities, in certain prescribed circumstances, to “trump” both the common law rights and the statutory rights.

 

The answer to Bettie's prior post also remains valid - mayalld's inference notwithstanding, all persons in positions within organisations granted certain rights to "trump" the public's rights, are governed by the strict limits to that power to impact upon the rights of the public, which are [as in your example] expressly delineated. In her case such powers did not apply. And reiterating the comments of mine and others, it was in the circumstances no big deal - but unlawful for all that.

[Humblespud]

Nigel, just to clarify I think that you 'll find for Police that Section of 17 PACE as authorisation to board a vessel will trump your MCA every time. The relevant Section begins by stating:-

 

"17 Entry for purpose of arrest etc.

 

(1)Subject to the following provisions of this section, and without prejudice to any other enactment, a constable may enter and search any premises for the purpose—....."

 

It then goes on list a a variety of grounds for entry including:- "....(e) of saving life or limb or preventing serious damage to property...." (covers looking for a misper)

 

In the preamble to the Act, Premises are defined as:-

 

"....In this Act— “premises” includes any place and, in particular, includes—

(a)any vehicle, vessel, aircraft or hovercraft....."

 

So I think entry to a canal boat would be well covered. Provided they have genuine grounds for doing so they will be coming aboard, whether I as skipper like it or not

 

 

 

You will find most Police Officers have a variety of stories of forced entries, my own favourite was following a call from a local alcoholic lady who was claiming that she was being held against her will at a local address. Upon arrival there sure enough from outside we could hear the two arguing inside of the flat where she was asking to leave and he (another alcoholic male) was telling her he couldn't find the door key. From outside I told him that he would either have to find the door key or call for a locksmith to open the door. He told me that he wasn't going to call any locksmith and he couldn't find the door key. He was advised that it wasn't a suggestion that he call the locksmith but an instruction! He didn't seem to take this on board and after about 25 minutes of negotiation I told him to either open the door, or I would and he would have to bear the consequences. Following his comment 'well do it then' I used what we used to call the big red key (official name 'Enforcer') which was rather effective in opening the door despite the fact that he had reinforced it since it took both the door and the frame into his flat (don't bother reinforcing the door if you don't reinforce the frame!). Once released the lady concerned decided that she didn't want to make any formal complaint against the male for False Imprisonment so having done necessary paperwork (it was classed as a 'domestic') we began to leave. The drunken male asked me who was coming to repair his door, to which the reply I gave was,"I don't know, who normally comes?" He did not seem to understand that since the entry was lawful and the occupant (him) was on the premises we had no obligation to repair the damage, so we didn't and the door remained wrecked for several weeks since he preferred to spend his money on alcohol rather than repairs.

 

Returning back to topic however, the etiquette of boating, I don't think I'd hold any particular malice against anyone who was unaware of the niceties. Having come from a sailing background how many people (unless they were specifically told) would be aware that if you are rafted up alongside another boat meaning you have to cross it to get ashore, would know to go across the bows rather than go across the stern? In sailing circles however it is considered 'very poor form' to do otherwise.

Were you drunk as well? Not surprising police get a bad name ...