Thin end of the wedge for boating on the Thames?

[Pete & Helen]

Picked this up from an email today. Anyone seen it and knows any more about it?

 

http://cetamail.co.uk/News/LoadNews.asp?mail_id=737974&news_id=492&s=cet1040&id=666

 

[PaulG]

Don't think it's entirely new.

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=72337

[Guest]

Picked this up from an email today. Anyone seen it and knows any more about it?

 

http://cetamail.co.uk/News/LoadNews.asp?mail_id=737974&news_id=492&s=cet1040&id=666

 

 

I can see some logic in that TBH, but from memory it's not only hire boats that have got into difficulties is it so it wont eliminate people getting into difficulties just reduce the number of incidents. After all there is nothing to stop a 'private' boater jumping on their boat and pootling up the tidal Thames on their maiden voyage, or indeed somebody completely inexperienced borrowing somebody else's boat and doing it.

Edited February 18, 2015 by MJG

[Galeomma]

Slight thread hijack -

 

Funnily enough last night my friend and I were talking about going up the Thames from the Grand Union to get to the Kennet & Avon. The EA website is not very infprmative as in it just has RED (Moor up) YELLOW (Better get ready to moor up), and WHITE ( Everything is OK) symbols.

 

Nothing like current speeds or timings. My boat only does about 4.5 - 5 mph so a current of 5 knots would have me going backwards.

 

Any good sites for river Thames information for boaters that people recommend?

[OldGoat]

Panic - Not - It's only for:-

 

Hire boat transit from Limehouse (to Brentford or Teddington)

 

There's no problem for:-

Transit between Brentford and Teddington

OR any general boating on the non-tidal Thames.

 

Based on my (long outdated hire boating days) very few hire boats ever do Limehouse etc. I know I had to negotiate with ABC / TBC / Weltonfield - that was in the days that folks did as they were told / advised.

Just a few idiots have spoilt it for the rest of us

[Martin Megson]

Hardly surprising really, and I see it covers both narrow boats and cruisers which suggests it is aimed at inexperienced skippers rather than certain types of boat. The Manchester ship canal does not allow hire boats or shared ownership to enter the canal.

[The Pipe]

Very simple the boards are nothing to do with the flow of the river they are related to the amount of water going over the weir.

If your boat only does 4.5/5 mph go on white boards and you are perfectly safe.

[Martin Megson]

Slight thread hijack -

 

Funnily enough last night my friend and I were talking about going up the Thames from the Grand Union to get to the Kennet & Avon. The EA website is not very infprmative as in it just has RED (Moor up) YELLOW (Better get ready to moor up), and WHITE ( Everything is OK) symbols.

 

Nothing like current speeds or timings. My boat only does about 4.5 - 5 mph so a current of 5 knots would have me going backwards.

 

Any good sites for river Thames information for boaters that people recommend?

 

The link below is to the EA guide to get you started. To be honest if your top speed is only 5mph I would be very wary of the Thames as some of the larger weirs can have quite a pull if you get too close.

 

 

http://www.visitthames.co.uk/dbimgs/Cruising%20Guide.pdf

[OldGoat]

Slight thread hijack -

 

Funnily enough last night my friend and I were talking about going up the Thames from the Grand Union to get to the Kennet & Avon. The EA website is not very infprmative as in it just has RED (Moor up) YELLOW (Better get ready to moor up), and WHITE ( Everything is OK) symbols.

 

Nothing like current speeds or timings. My boat only does about 4.5 - 5 mph so a current of 5 knots would have me going backwards.

 

Any good sites for river Thames information for boaters that people recommend?

 

The existing scheme confuses the hell out of most folks so any more details would cause total panic.

 

A simple rule of thumb (apart from if any boards are out, then don't move) is:-

 

Yellow decreasing - take reasonable care

Yellow increasing - consider not moving

Reds - DON'T MOVE AT ALL.

 

stream speeds are not meaningful and vary from reach (pound) to reach. It's not a matter of just maintain your way but more one of manoeuvrability especially when approaching some lock laybys

 

(What others have just said above....)

[Martin Megson]

Very simple the boards are nothing to do with the flow of the river they are related to the amount of water going over the weir.

If your boat only does 4.5/5 mph go on white boards and you are perfectly safe.

 

While that is strictly true, I recall that they go yellow at 25% open and red at 50%, but the open weirs do result in increased flow, particlarly below the weirs.

[Mac of Cygnet]

Panic - Not - It's only for:-

 

Hire boat transit from Limehouse (to Brentford or Teddington)

 

There's no problem for:-

Transit between Brentford and Teddington

From the link in the OP:

 

In addition the ban covers the upper stretch between Teddington and Brentford which has significantly less commercial traffic and is not as strongly affected by winds and tides.

So which is correct?

[David Mack]

I've just had a quick look at the PLA general and leisure boating websites, and can see no reference at all to this. So whilst the PLA have apparently pronounced on this point they haven't, as far as I can see, actually done anything to make it happen. Which surely means that for the time being at least, hire boats can continue to use the whole of the tidal Thames.

I notice that the IWA statement on the matter is more circumspect:

"The Port of London Authority (PLA) is currently discussing future operations of hire boats on the tidal River Thames"

"Hire companies have been asked to cease these operations until further notice."

 

So it sounds like there is as yet no firm position.

[Machpoint005]

And before we run away with it, let's just notice that it's the tidal Thames we're dealing with, not the rest of it (most of it).

[Leo No2]

 

Any good sites for river Thames information for boaters that people recommend?

Yes - http://www.thamescruising.co.uk/wordpress/

[Keeping Up]

Yes it DOES include the section from Brentford to Teddington.

 

APCO have been in active negotiation with the PLA since the moment this was first announced, with a target date of 1st March for reaching an agreement for that part of the route. I don't know how well the talks are going.

[blackrose]

And before we run away with it, let's just notice that it's the tidal Thames we're dealing with, not the rest of it (most of it).

The point is, how will hire boats even get from the southern GU to the non-tidal Thames if the tidal stretch between Brentford and Tedders is off- limits? I guess they will have to go the long way around and come down the Oxford.

Any good sites for river Thames information for boaters that people recommend?

http://riverconditions.environment-agency.gov.uk

[alan_fincher]

Panic - Not - It's only for:-

 

Hire boat transit from Limehouse (to Brentford or Teddington)

 

There's no problem for:-

Transit between Brentford and Teddington

OR any general boating on the non-tidal Thames.

 

Based on my (long outdated hire boating days) very few hire boats ever do Limehouse etc. I know I had to negotiate with ABC / TBC / Weltonfield - that was in the days that folks did as they were told / advised.

Just a few idiots have spoilt it for the rest of us

 

This was a feature being pushed by the Black Prince operation at Willowtree Marina on the Paddington Arm, and, as a result, I believe quite a few of their boats were actually venturing out of Limehouse.

 

(The old hire fleet on the River Lee used to do the same, but I believe they have fully closed down.)

 

But as it seems it does also apply to Teddington to Brentford, (or vice versa), there are still hire firms on the Thames ring like those at Gayton, Leighton Buzzard, or on the Oxford Canal that still occasionally have long hires, and people do the ring.

 

I'm not really surprised by the decision for the Limehouse to Brentford stretch, but it does seem complete overkill to apply it from Brentford to Teddington. Hire boats have been doing that stretch for maybe 50 years or more, and I suspect generally without incident.

[Phoenix_V]

Of course the professionals never make mistakes!

 

http://www.pla.co.uk/assets/sb3of2013-failuretokeepaproperlookout.pdf

 

FAILURE TO KEEP

A PROPER LOOKOUT

Over the past year, there have been a number of totally avoidable incidents, which have been

caused by a failure to keep a proper look out

 

In a recent incident, a vessel collided with a

narrow boat after reentering the navigational

channel at the Coin Street Moorings. The impact

damaged the narrow boat’s stern and disabled

her steering. The Master admitted not seeing the

narrow boat at all.

Where visibility is restricted

or small craft maybe encountered, Masters

should consider whether they require

someone else to assist to maintain a proper

lookout.

In another incident, a vessel collided with a

mooring buoy in clear visibility while the Master

had been distracted rebooting navigational

equipment.

Masters should avoid distraction by delegating tasks to crew to ensure that a

proper lookout is maintained at all times.

A further incident involved a vessel contacting a mooring

buoy at night. The crew

knew that the buoy was in the

vicinity, but did not see it.

When navigating at night in

close proximity to known or suspected hazards;

Masters should take extra care, ease speed and use a

search light to confirm their location.

Earlier this year, a passenger vessel operating a

commuter service collided with Westminster Embankment

wall at 7 knots in clear conditions and without any

mechanical failure.

This incident would not have occurred if the Master had been fully

aware of his surroundings and maintaining a proper lookout.

In all of these incidents, the cause was identified as a failure to keep a proper look out by all

available means, which is not only a fundamental requirement of the International Collision

Regulations, but also the ordinary practice of good seamanship. It is vital that the master and

crew work together to maintain a proper look out at all times, none of these incidents would

have occurred if they had done so.

20September 2013

Port of London Authority

London River House

Royal

Pier Road

Gravesend, Kent DA12 2BG

DAVID PHILLIPS

CHIEF HARBOUR MASTER

Telephone calls, VHF radio traffic, CCTV and radar traffic images may be recorded in

the VTS Centres at Gravesend and Woolwich.

www.pla.co.uk

[Wanderer Vagabond]

Slight thread hijack -

 

Funnily enough last night my friend and I were talking about going up the Thames from the Grand Union to get to the Kennet & Avon. The EA website is not very infprmative as in it just has RED (Moor up) YELLOW (Better get ready to moor up), and WHITE ( Everything is OK) symbols.

 

Nothing like current speeds or timings. My boat only does about 4.5 - 5 mph so a current of 5 knots would have me going backwards.

 

Any good sites for river Thames information for boaters that people recommend?

If it is any help, we only run our boat at about that speed and, obviously complying with the boards, we didn't have any trouble. Your first section from Brentford to Teddington you should be travelling on the last of the incoming tide so the current will be carrying you along and for the rest of it, provided that the boards say it's OK then you shouldn't have any great problem. To save fuel it is worth trying to stay where the current is least (inside edge on corners where you can etc.). Once you get on the Kennet and Avon however things can get quite exciting in places Reading, Newbury and Woolhampton to name three . All of them, particularly coming back downstream, were more challenging than anything we met on the Thames. The Thames in flood however is another matter entirely and should be avoided at all costs!

[Scholar Gypsy]

I've just had a quick look at the PLA general and leisure boating websites, and can see no reference at all to this. So whilst the PLA have apparently pronounced on this point they haven't, as far as I can see, actually done anything to make it happen. Which surely means that for the time being at least, hire boats can continue to use the whole of the tidal Thames.

 

I notice that the IWA statement on the matter is more circumspect:

 

"The Port of London Authority (PLA) is currently discussing future operations of hire boats on the tidal River Thames"

"Hire companies have been asked to cease these operations until further notice."

 

So it sounds like there is as yet no firm position.

 

 

Just to add that this was not mentioned at the recent PLA open meeting for river users, and like David Mack, I can find no official announcement by the PLA.

 

The Black Prince website still suggests this route is possible for their boats, although as far as I can see the tideway has been removed from their list of routes (apart from Willowtree-Reading). They now suggest Reading, Hertford or Leighton Buzzard.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Scholar Gypsy

[Keeping Up]

I've just had a quick look at the PLA general and leisure boating websites, and can see no reference at all to this. So whilst the PLA have apparently pronounced on this point they haven't, as far as I can see, actually done anything to make it happen. Which surely means that for the time being at least, hire boats can continue to use the whole of the tidal Thames.

 

I notice that the IWA statement on the matter is more circumspect:

 

"The Port of London Authority (PLA) is currently discussing future operations of hire boats on the tidal River Thames"

"Hire companies have been asked to cease these operations until further notice."

 

So it sounds like there is as yet no firm position.

 

 

I'm not sure that the PLA need to do anything to make it happen. The original article that I saw, said the PLA would simply classify hire boats as Commercial, based on their type of licence. This would then require them to comply with all the existing regulations that apply to commercial vessels.

[Machpoint005]

 

>> Hire boats have been doing that stretch for maybe 50 years or more, and I suspect generally without incident. <<

 

Well, I did it as a teenager, not quite 50 years ago, and the turn into GUC at Brentford was somewhat hairy.

[Scholar Gypsy]

 

I'm not sure that the PLA need to do anything to make it happen. The original article that I saw, said the PLA would simply classify hire boats as Commercial, based on their type of licence. This would then require them to comply with all the existing regulations that apply to commercial vessels.

 

That's an interesting point. I guess we would need a proper lawyer here, but one reading of the Port of London Act (section 124) would suggest that a hire boat is exempt from the PLA's licencing requirements (see byelaw 1.2), not least as they are licenced by CRT.

 

I would imagine that insurers are also getting involved in this debate...

[David Mack]

 

I'm not sure that the PLA need to do anything to make it happen. The original article that I saw, said the PLA would simply classify hire boats as Commercial, based on their type of licence. This would then require them to comply with all the existing regulations that apply to commercial vessels.

 

That maybe so. But given that they have permitted hire boats up until now, they do have to publicise their changed interpretation of the regulations.

 

Of course, if they do now take the view that the existing regs don't permit hire boats on the tidal Thames, then they have no wriggle room to permit them on the section between Brentford and Teddington - the rules either do or do not apply to the whole of their waters.

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

A few years ago I informed Thames Radio that I was leaving Limehouse for Brentford. They asked me to inform them when I was off the river. But my radio couldn't raise them from Brentford.