Gardener 2LW or Kelvin K3?

[Markinaboat]

Hi,

 

I've been a live-aboard for some 14 years and now in the process of buying a new [second-hand boat]. We've seen two that we really like and price aside, would very much appreciate some feedback on the pro's and con's of the 2LW V the K3 based on the fact that we will be continuously cruising (average 4 days per week) for maybe 2-3 years.

 

Is one more reliable than the other or require significantly more servicing time and parts?

 

I've also been told that neither is suitable for running to charge the batteries, even when in gear?

 

Lastly, is one gearbox more user friendly than the other i.e. when performing emergency stops or just being able to go from forward to reverse and vice versa in a timely fashion?

 

Many thanks

 

Mark

[matty40s]

The gearbox issue will depend on what gearbox is fitted and what controls you have.Ttraditional forward reverse controls are far easier to swap propellor directions instantly than morso style cable changeovers in an emergency basis.

You can run these engines to charge batteries - I did for quite a while before solar took over my roofspace. They don't get warmed up properly at tickover though - even at higher revs they take ages to warm up - and running in gear ruins the banks and canal bottom (is against boating regulations).

2LW is pretty bombproof if properly reconditioned,installed and looked after. Kelvin is pretty similar, although spare parts may be harder to source.

 

My choice out of those two would be the Kelvin.

 

However, I would choose my 2L2 over both.

[LEO]

Gardner every time....

[Timleech]

Regardless of the pros and cons of Gardner vs Kelvin, the 2LW is the right size for a narrow boat whereas the K3 is outrageously too big.

In my opinion.

No doubt a K3 owner will be along shortly to contradict me.

 

Tim

[mark99]

Regardless of the pros and cons of Gardner vs Kelvin, the 2LW is the right size for a narrow boat whereas the K3 is outrageously too big.

In my opinion.

No doubt a K3 owner will be along shortly to contradict me.

 

Tim

 

I thought this too - must weight > 1 tonne?

 

Perhaps the OP meant J3?

 

Actually K3 = 1.7 tonnes(!) and J3 = 0.72 tonnes.

Edited August 29, 2014 by mark99

[dave moore]

I agree totally with Tim regarding the size issue, though as a Kevin user for many years (J3, not K ) I'm biased in favour. I've handled boats with the K series installed, the issue for me was the relatively slow response when winding the speed on - due, probably, to the massive flywheel.

 

Much depends on the condition of both motors and how they have been maintained. Kelvins are simple, robust engines, designed for owner maintenance but you can't deny the superb engineering qualities of the Gardener. For what it's worth, Tony at Norton Canes, boatbuilder and engine fitter, prefers the Kelvin to the many Gardeners he has installed.

 

On a couple of occasions I've had to stop in a hurry....no problem with the Kelvin box, I wouldn't anticipate any with a Gardener either.

 

Vintage engines arouse passions from their owners....expect lots of contrary opinions!

 

Cheers

 

Dave

[alan_fincher]

Regardless of the pros and cons of Gardner vs Kelvin, the 2LW is the right size for a narrow boat whereas the K3 is outrageously too big.

In my opinion.

No doubt a K3 owner will be along shortly to contradict me.

 

Tim

I don't think you have said definitely that these are narrow boats, but if so, what Tim says.

 

A K3 is bonkers large on a narrow boat.

[Markinaboat]

 

I thought this too - must weight > 1 tonne?

 

Perhaps the OP meant J3?

 

Actually K3 = 1.7 tonnes(!) and J3 = 0.72 tonnes.

No, it's most definitely a K3 and yes to 1.69 tons

I don't think you have said definitely that these are narrow boats, but if so, what Tim says.

 

A K3 is bonkers large on a narrow boat.

It's in a Northwich Trader - RW Davis has installed several of these in their boats as well as Gardners

The gearbox issue will depend on what gearbox is fitted and what controls you have.Ttraditional forward reverse controls are far easier to swap propellor directions instantly than morso style cable changeovers in an emergency basis.

You can run these engines to charge batteries - I did for quite a while before solar took over my roofspace. They don't get warmed up properly at tickover though - even at higher revs they take ages to warm up - and running in gear ruins the banks and canal bottom (is against boating regulations).

2LW is pretty bombproof if properly reconditioned,installed and looked after. Kelvin is pretty similar, although spare parts may be harder to source.

 

My choice out of those two would be the Kelvin.

 

However, I would choose my 2L2 over both.

Gardner has a UC reversing gearbox with a very large wheel to operate. Not sure about the K3 but it is a very highly specced boat and fully/properly marinised, pre-heaters etc so no petrol start required. Size is not important as there's still stacks of room in the engine room and I know she will handle like a dream. It's purely reliability that concerns me and cost of parts as would of course do my own maintenance. Thanks to all for your quick and very helpful replies!

[alan_fincher]

It's in a Northwich Trader - RW Davis has installed several of these in their boats as well as Gardners

 

Yes, I know!

 

I'm sure I'll upset Graham of "Alnwick" again, (because he has one that is much admired).

 

But it is, in my view, still an inappropriately over-powered engine for a leisure narrow boat.

 

Two 70 foot trading boats (motor/butty pair), carrying up to 55 tons of cargo, got along well with 18HP of slow revving diesel. Why on earth put 66HP, (or whatever it is), in something that needs far less pushing along.

 

Very showy - lovely sounding - but far too powerful for the job.

[casper ghost]

Yes, i've been on Alnwick, and it was a lovely engine, but way to big for a narrowboat.. I seem to aim to be underpowered all the time, moving from a 10hp Sabb to a 10hp Ruston & Hornsby...

 

A boat chugged passed me the other day, with a lovely sounding, vintage-ish engine (albeit multi cylinder) on tickover, but, it was still going about as fast as my boat will go, flat out; just too big an engine for canals..

Casp'

[MtB]

As you don't seem to have much of an inherent interest in vintage engines I'd say avoid the Kelvin. Not only is it ridiculously over-large for a NB there is quite a bit of work involved in simply starting one, and looking after it..

 

I'm not sure what you mean my your comment about this particular K3 being properly marinised, they are marine engines in the first place right from the drawing board! They come as either petrol start or diesel start, both types being capable of hand starting (unlike the Gardner IIRC) but the diesel start has less bling You have to do a fair bit of messing about first to start both types, oiling the dashpots etc so I'm not sure you'll like this.

 

The 2LW is an odd mix of behaving like a modern engine i.e. being key start, and being slow revving and sounding (if not really looking like) a propoer vintage engine.

 

What's wrong with a nice Mitsubishi anyway?

 

 

MtB

[roland elsdon]

Buy either, sell engine to "enthusiast " replace with lister hrw, and inbuilt generator, put change in bank...

[MtB]

Buy either, sell engine to "enthusiast " replace with lister hrw, and inbuilt generator, put change in bank...

 

Good idea.

 

Buy the Gardner actually, and I'll swap it for my Lister HRW2. Only 36 hours running time from new!!

 

 

MtB

[Markinaboat]

As you don't seem to have much of an inherent interest in vintage engines I'd say avoid the Kelvin. Not only is it ridiculously over-large for a NB there is quite a bit of work involved in simply starting one, and looking after it..

 

I'm not sure what you mean my your comment about this particular K3 being properly marinised, they are marine engines in the first place right from the drawing board! They come as either petrol start or diesel start, both types being capable of hand starting (unlike the Gardner IIRC) but the diesel start has less bling You have to do a fair bit of messing about first to start both types, oiling the dashpots etc so I'm not sure you'll like this.

 

The 2LW is an odd mix of behaving like a modern engine i.e. being key start, and being slow revving and sounding (if not really looking like) a propoer vintage engine.

 

What's wrong with a nice Mitsubishi anyway?

 

 

MtB

Not sure where you got the idea that I'm not interested in vintage engines? Also, tis not a leisure boat but a live aboard. It is diesel start and Ive bedn informed that it takes 5 mins to prepare to get going as opposed to 10-15 when petrol starting. Also, the Gardner 2LW is most definitely hand start as the solenoid was jammed and we turned it over by hand.

Lots of views, just what I hoped for! ;-)

 

Still don't get why some think the size of the K3 is an issue. As far as I am aware, they run ok at low revs.

 

Yet to hear it running in the flesh, maybe it'll be more tiring on a daily basis or perhaps not so?

Edited August 29, 2014 by Markinaboat

[koukouvagia]

It's purely reliability that concerns me and cost of parts as would of course do my own maintenance.

Just to answer these two points, not wishing to be drawn into arguments about whether a K3 is too big for a narrowboat.I've had a K2 for fifteen years. It's been extremely reliable.

 

I had to have new rings and pistons last year and I had a broken nut in the water pump. Apart from that it's just been a question of regular oil changes. Oh yes, I also had trouble with the magneto.

 

Spares are still available. You'll soon find out the two or three Kelvin gurus who'll be able to help you source most spares. As an example, a set of rings and pistons cost me about £500.

 

These engines were designed for North Sea fishing boats and where those with very little mechanical knowledge could easily look after them.

 

One advantage not mentioned is how remarkably clean running these engines are. There is no visible smoke and at the end of a day's boating the underside of the cutter is a still shiny.

Edited August 29, 2014 by koukouvagia

[Sir Nibble]

Gardner LW series engines did every duty imaginable from industrial through marine to automotive and gained a strong reputation throughout as being as reliable as sunrise. the 2LW with have a great deal of spares commonality with it's 4,5 and 6 cylinder brethren.

[Sabcat]

Stacks of room left in the K3 engine room, bugger all room ledt in the rest of the boat? I know this is likely to offend some but to my mind the K3 is a joke in a narrowboat.

[PhilR]

 

Still don't get why some think the size of the K3 is an issue. As far as I am aware, they run ok at low revs.

 

 

 

With 12 litres and 66 HP it will be unlikely that you can swing a big enough prop to get the full potential out of the K3 on a narrowboat. If you did, the tick-over speed would be really excessive for slow speed canal use. The Kelvins are lovely engines, but the K3 was designed for (e.g.) North Sea trawlers.

 

In a narrowboat a K3 would have to be seriously under-propped.to be manageable IMHO.

[FadeToScarlet]

I'd go for the K3, but only because I moor on a river and do a bit of towing.

[mark99]

RW N. Traders are quite deep drafted IIRC, not sure if a K3 would just add more to that possible headache.

 

To MtB - not sure what you mean by 2LW's don't look like vintage engines.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2014 by mark99

[Tam & Di]

Not sure where you got the idea that I'm not interested in vintage engines? Also, tis not a leisure boat but a live aboard.

 

The term "leisure boat" is used to mean you will not be using it commercially to carry cargo or to tow other vessels. Your live-aboard use is leisure use in this context.

 

We have had Kelvins in a couple of our working craft (I don't know where "Kevin" came from in one reply but I like the idea of using a Kevin) but we've also had a variety of Gardners. In our current one we have a 6LW, so it is sort of three 2LWs in a sense. I would definitely go for the Gardner any time. Spares cost the earth, but you so rarely ever need to buy them as the engines are so reliable.

 

Tam

[Timleech]

 

The term "leisure boat" is used to mean you will not be using it commercially to carry cargo or to tow other vessels. Your live-aboard use is leisure use in this context.

 

We have had Kelvins in a couple of our working craft (I don't know where "Kevin" came from in one reply but I like the idea of using a Kevin) but we've also had a variety of Gardners. In our current one we have a 6LW, so it is sort of three 2LWs in a sense. I would definitely go for the Gardner any time. Spares cost the earth, but you so rarely ever need to buy them as the engines are so reliable.

 

Tam

 

Actually I've been pleasantly surprised with some prices in recent ears. Compared with Kelvin T spares they are positively cheap

 

Tim

[Tam & Di]

As you don't seem to have much of an inherent interest in vintage engines I'd say avoid the Kelvin. They come as either petrol start or diesel start, both types being capable of hand starting (unlike the Gardner IIRC) but the diesel start has less bling

 

We had a Gardner 6LX in a 35m Belgian Spitz we operated on the Thames and SE which had hand start capability. We could barely swing the handle even with the engine decompressed, but finding ourselves with flat batteries at Greenwich one time a very burly tug master friend came aboard and put us all to shame - he made it look easy.

 

That 6LX and our current 6LW both have Twin Disc gearboxes which have a reliability comparable with the Gardners themselves.

 

Tam

Edited August 30, 2014 by Tam & Di

[MtB]

 

To MtB - not sure what you mean by 2LW's don't look like vintage engines.

 

 

One should be able to see the flywheel in my personal opinion. It's enclosed/concealed on a 2LW.

 

An exposed flywheel is one of the major features of a 'vintage' engine for me!

 

 

MtB

[LEO]

RW N. Traders are quite deep drafted IIRC, not sure if a K3 would just add more to that possible headache.

 

To MtB - not sure what you mean by 2LW's don't look like vintage engines.

 

 

 

A real gem Mark, surprised your wife lets you leave the toilet seat up after use.

 

Not sure about the boat pole you painted though.

 

M