Dispute at Pillings

[Alan de Enfield]

I, amongst others have said on a number of occasions that the NAA is payable in advance - it is purely bad management that has allowed the situation to get to where we are today.

[Up-Side-Down]

The 1 for 10 removal is part of the defunct NAA. That deal is now off and they can reinstate the moorings.

 

If CRT decides to offer a new NAA they are under no obligation to offer the same 1 for 10 deal.

 

The thing about this whole mess that strikes me is that if we consider the shortfall in what PL says they could afford, then compare it to the excess salary paid to PL, it is clear that the NAA could have been paid if only PL had decided that his salary was to be governed by affordability rather than his inflated sense of his own value.

 

And that, in a nutshell, would appear to be it.

 

The words 'cut' and 'cloth' come to mind and if PL had born these words in mind at the outset and this had been post No1, we might all have been spared this mighty long (and record breaking?) thread!

[PaulG]

One can only wonder why CRT didn't simply blockage the marina at the end of the second year rather than going to the time and expense of taking the matter to court!

Because they would have been accused of being heavy-handed, inflexible, unwilling to compromise, greedy, money-grabbing b@st@rds.

Oh.... I see they were, anyway.

[MtB]

 

This is the post of page 156 halfway the page.

Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:06 PM

Mike the Boilerman, on 22 Feb 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

"The IP is paid from the company's or individual assets. In receiverships the fees are negotiated by the lender who appoints the receiver. In all other types of insolvency, they are agreed by the creditors committee or creditors, or failing that, by the court. The fees normally take account of time spent by the IP and his staff, the value of the assets realised and the complexity of the case." (Price Waterhouse Coopers.)

 

 

Excellent. Thanks for digging that out.

 

As I suspected, it doesn't answer my question in this case.

 

MtB

[Tuscan]

I see as posted elsewhere they have just started digging out the new marina at North Kilworth just up from Foxton. I wonder how their business plan differs from Pilling?!

[Allan(nb Albert)]

I see as posted elsewhere they have just started digging out the new marina at North Kilworth just up from Foxton. I wonder how their business plan differs from Pilling?!

Sawley currently has one in three berths empty. I think their business plan is the same as Pillings -

 

Don't pay NAA!

 

..... and BWML's MD, Derek Newton, resigned on Friday just three weeks before its accounting year end. The word is that BWML's performance has been 'disappointing'.

[Grace and Favour]

I see as posted elsewhere they have just started digging out the new marina at North Kilworth just up from Foxton. I wonder how their business plan differs from Pilling?!

They may have planned on instigating a 'customer care training programme' before they open?

[adam1uk]

Sawley currently has one in three berths empty. I think their business plan is the same as Pillings -

 

Don't pay NAA!

 

 

But that's because Sawley opened long, long before such a thing as the NAA was even thought of.

[Grace and Favour]

Sawley currently has one in three berths empty. I think their business plan is the same as Pillings -

 

Don't pay NAA!

 

..... and BWML's MD, Derek Newton, resigned on Friday just three weeks before its accounting year end. The word is that BWML's performance has been 'disappointing'.

But I believe that Sawley's problems are not the same cause as Pilling's

[Ssscrudddy]

I see as posted elsewhere they have just started digging out the new marina at North Kilworth just up from Foxton. I wonder how their business plan differs from Pilling?!

Perhaps they included VAT in their plan.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

But I believe that Sawley's problems are not the same cause as Pilling's

I believe the root cause of problems for Sawley and Pillings are the same - low berth occupancy - due to lack of demand.

 

Why do you think they are different?

 

But that's because Sawley opened long, long before such a thing as the NAA was even thought of.

Is that any excuse?

 

CaRT should ensure that BWML marinas do not have a commercial advantage over its competitors.

 

 

[mayalld]

I believe the root cause of problems for Sawley and Pillings are the same - low berth occupancy - due to lack of demand.

 

OMG, Allan's account has been hacked.

 

You don't fool us, the real Allan never thinks that the cause of anything is other than a conspiracy in the higher echelons of CRT

[Grace and Favour]

 

OMG, Allan's account has been hacked.

 

You don't fool us, the real Allan never thinks that the cause of anything is other than a conspiracy in the higher echelons of CRT

I believe the root cause of problems for Sawley and Pillings are the same - low berth occupancy - due to lack of demand.

 

Why do you think they are different?

 

That they both suffer from reducing occupancy may be undeniable . . .

 

It's the causes of the changes in numbers that are different, I understand.

[adam1uk]

Is that any excuse?

CaRT should ensure that BWML marinas do not have a commercial advantage over its competitors.

 

Being a BWML marina has nothing to do with it. As PL keeps pointing out, some marinas don't have to pay the NAA. But when they were established, they didn't benefit from the removal of online moorings either.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

 

Being a BWML marina has nothing to do with it. As PL keeps pointing out, some marinas don't have to pay the NAA. But when they were established, they didn't benefit from the removal of online moorings either.

Any marina with empty berths potentially benefits from the removal of online moorings even if they don't pay NAA.

 

Are you trying to say that Sawley and other marinas in the area did not have the potential to benefit from the online moorings removed when Pillings opened?

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

According to a Paul Lillie Quote - "despite agreement that 10 'local moorings' would be closed, 8 are still in use". There may have been 10 closed somewhere in the country, but not in the locality of PLM

 

There again that may just be PLM's version of the truth.

I know 100's of pages ago the 'closed moorings' were named but I cannot find it now.

[adam1uk]

Any marina with empty berths potentially benefits from the removal of online moorings even if they don't pay NAA.

Are you trying to say that Sawley and other marinas in the area did not have the potential to benefit from the online moorings removed when Pillings opened?

 

No I'm not saying that. For existing marinas, surely the potential benefit of the removal of online moorings is more than offset by having ten times as many new berths in a new marina opened.

 

The point I was making is that in days gone by there was no such thing as the NAA, so it's not really a surprise that long established marinas don't pay it. And that whether they pay it or not is not linked to whether they're owned by BWML or not.

[Richard Fairhurst]

I know 100's of pages ago the 'closed moorings' were named but I cannot find it now.

 

Cranfleet Towpath - L1 Moorings 8

Hazelford Lock - L1 Moorings 4

Newark Town - L1 moorings 3

Tamworth Road - L1 moorings 2

Lime Kilns - L1 Moorings 5

Smeeton Westerby Trans Moorings 1

Sutton Cheney Wharf - L1 Moorings 2

Market Bosworth - L1 Moorings 4

[johnlillie]

No I'm not saying that. For existing marinas, surely the potential benefit of the removal of online moorings is more than offset by having ten times as many new berths in a new marina opened.

 

The point I was making is that in days gone by there was no such thing as the NAA, so it's not really a surprise that long established marinas don't pay it. And that whether they pay it or not is not linked to whether they're owned by BWML or not.

I am not sure how long is "long ago" in your book, but I know of a small marina less than 10 miles from PLM that was dug in the late 1960's, started paying the equivalent of the NAA then, and still pays it now!

[dor]

Any marina with empty berths potentially benefits from the removal of online moorings even if they don't pay NAA.

 

Are you trying to say that Sawley and other marinas in the area did not have the potential to benefit from the online moorings removed when Pillings opened?

 

 

 

That might be the case if people who were on an online mooring moved into a marina mooring. But anyone with any experience of boats and boating knows that people are on an online mooring because they don't want to be in a marina. Cost might be a factor, but far more significant is the desire to not have to moor in what amounts to a high density caravan park. Some will move into a marina if that is the only alternative, but many more just go bridge-hopping if they can't find an alternative online mooring in the area they want to moor in.

[Pete & Helen]

According to a Paul Lillie Quote - "despite agreement that 10 'local moorings' would be closed, 8 are still in use". There may have been 10 closed somewhere in the country, but not in the locality of PLM

 

There again that may just be PLM's version of the truth.

I know 100's of pages ago the 'closed moorings' were named but I cannot find it now.

 

Is this what you were looking for?

 

http://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/1014.docx

[Allan(nb Albert)]

The point I was making is that in days gone by there was no such thing as the NAA, so it's not really a surprise that long established marinas don't pay it. And that whether they pay it or not is not linked to whether they're owned by BWML or not.

I think you will find that, in 2011, BWML purchased a marina that did not have an NAA. It does now making it the only one of 20 marinas that does.

 

 

 

 

That might be the case if people who were on an online mooring moved into a marina mooring. But anyone with any experience of boats and boating knows that people are on an online mooring because they don't want to be in a marina. Cost might be a factor, but far more significant is the desire to not have to moor in what amounts to a high density caravan park. Some will move into a marina if that is the only alternative, but many more just go bridge-hopping if they can't find an alternative online mooring in the area they want to moor in.

If I recall correctly, BW's New Marina Unit estimated that some 500 online moorers would chose to move into marinas.

 

They thought cost was the major factor preventing more doing so ..........

Edited March 10, 2014 by Allan(nb Albert)

[MtB]

That they both suffer from reducing occupancy may be undeniable . . .

 

It's the causes of the changes in numbers that are different, I understand.

 

If you are saying Sawley is less than full due to a reason other than poor customer service, could you tell the board what that reason is please?

 

One possibility is a load of boats migrated from Sawley to Pillings when Pillings opened!

 

MtB

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

Cranfleet Towpath - L1 Moorings 8

Hazelford Lock - L1 Moorings 4

Newark Town - L1 moorings 3

Tamworth Road - L1 moorings 2

Lime Kilns - L1 Moorings 5

Smeeton Westerby Trans Moorings 1

Sutton Cheney Wharf - L1 Moorings 2

Market Bosworth - L1 Moorings 4

 

 

Many thanks - So 8 'local' moorings were closed.

[adam1uk]

I am not sure how long is "long ago" in your book, but I know of a small marina less than 10 miles from PLM that was dug in the late 1960's, started paying the equivalent of the NAA then, and still pays it now!

Exactly - the equivalent of NAA. As I understand it, back then the treatment of new marinas was piecemeal, so some were asked to pay a fee while others weren't. Some may have had all kinds of other clauses which were unique to them. It wasn't until relatively recently (10 years or so ago?) that a standard NAA was put in place, agreed with the industry, and which included the removal of online moorings. Clearly, whatever agreements those marinas agreed then still stand

 

I think you will find that, in 2011, BWML purchased a marina that did not have an NAA. It does now making it the only one of 20 marinas that does.

Are you saying they started paying out of the goodness of their hearts -- or was there perhaps some reason for a new agreement?