Self fit-out: should I?

[Hey Ho]

I'm in the early stages of thinking about doing a self fit-out so I'm looking for a bit of guidance. I'm not looking at the detail at the moment, I'd just like to know whether it's a practical proposition that's worth thinking any more about.

I'm trying to be realistic about it. I think I've got the joinery skills (and tools & machinery). I'm quite a practical person and am ok at problem solving and teaching myself new skills.

I'd be needing a gas fitter and electrician along the way, but I'm hoping that with time & study, I'd be able to manage most of the other tasks. Am I being realistic or optimistic, do you think?

I expect there will be mistakes, and that the boat would take a long time to complete. Based on nothing but a guess, I'd think there must be well over a thousand hours work in a decent first-time owner fit-out. I don't have anywhere to do the work though, so I'd have to pay rent for yard space somewhere and an electricity supply over that period.

This is something I'd like to do for the satisfaction, and so that I'd have a proper understanding of everything on the boat once finished. I wouldn't be doing it because I couldn't find what I wanted in a used boat, or because thought I knew better than generations of boat builders, & I wouldn't be trying to re-invent any wheels.

The question at this earliest of early stages is - would this even be economically viable once the yard rental & my labour (at min wage) were factored in? By this, I mean would there be any saving compared to a new or nearly new boat, or might it even end up costing me more? I'm also looking for some reassurance that I should attempt this – or fair warnings not to, if that's what you think.

I'd probably be looking at fitting out a mid-range new shell, around 50ft, if that has any bearing.

All opinions, blunt as you like, welcome. Offence will not be taken ...I'm hoping.

[Chalky]

That's where most self fitouts start. You do what you can and ask for advice on the forum for everything else. Sometimes you realise you can't do a job and need expert help. Knowing your own limitations is a major step.

 

I fitted out our boat. Lots of planning, lots of sketches etc before I built anything. Planning ahead is the key. Some jobs look like they need a highly skilled approach however by careful planning you'll find a way of doing it that's within your capability and produces the same (or better) result. Try to move problems from highly skilled to tool setting.

 

Do it. It's great fun, it just takes a lot longer than you expect!

[dmr]

I suspect if you factor in your labour then you will loose money compared to buying a second hand boat.

If your fit out is not good you might even loose money compared with buying a brand new boat.

If you have not done a fit out before, or spent a lot of time with boats, then you will probably not get it right first time.

You are not fitting out a house and if you try to build a boat like a house it won't be a good boat!

Are you confident you can do a fit out that looks good? A lot of owner fit outs are rather "functional". Getting the trim and little finishing touches right appears to scupper a lot of self fitters.

We have all heard about self fit outs where the cost of shell and materials is more than the final value of the boat, and remember that if you sell a lot of buyers do not like self fit outs.

but the good bits....

If you want the satisfaction of doing it yourself then that alone is a good reason for doing it, and a good owner fit out can have much more charm and a much better "feel" then anything that the professionals produce.

 

.........Dave

[Ryeland]

I fitted out my 50' shell, and it took nearly 6 months working virtually every day to get it to a good standard of basic fit oiut. The big advantage was that it was only yards from my house, in front of my workshop. Doing it away from home and facilities must be very hard, and probably explains why so many boats never get really finished.

 

There is a need for storage for materials - you can't work on the boat without clear space.

 

Do LOTS of planning and thinking about everything.before lifting a tool.

 

I reckon that if I costed in my time, I could have bought a boat fitted out. But I did have lots of satisfaction from the exercise, and now know every inch of the boat.

 

Richard

 

PS If you are around the Midlands and want to visit the boat and talk over the fit out process PM me.

[nb Innisfree]

We lived in a caravan while we did a total fitout, going slowly it took nearly two years full time. As regards advice that can be frustrating, each person you ask has a different viewpoint. In the end I worked stuff out myself, involved lots and lots of thinking time but worth it in the end.

[sueb]

We built our boat. Hubby had no skills but a friend who had been a carpenter helped with advice. He was disabled. It took 18 months and the result was lovely. The build was done at a boat yard and we shamelessly looked at others work

[DeanS]

It is possible to receive a sailaway , and make it liveable within a few days, and then spend 5yrs doing it properly.

If you put the sailaway straight into a marina, with elec, you already have heating, lighting, and water from day 1. You can run electrical kettle, camping gas stove, and use the marina's shower facilities.

 

Read my blog

[system 4-50]

Do it! I've been doing it for four years ( I am in no hurry ) and I have enjoyed it immensely.

My tips are:

Buy the shell from Colecraft.

Get it in the Spring, NOT the Winter.

Paint it immediately.

Work on it near your home, travel greatly reduces your available effort.

Have 240V available.

Measure the shell exhaustively before you have it sprayfoamed.

Sprayfoam it.

 

Added: I did my first 3 months work in Colecraft's yard at a trivial cost.

Edited January 14, 2014 by system 4-50

[rjasmith]

Another thought - Have you done any research about doing your boat to the RCD or just to the Boat Safety Scheme. Don't forget that if you are happy not to go for RCD compliance, you can't sell the boat legally for five years after you've first started to use it.

 

Building to the RCD isn't difficult but it can add a bit more time in the planning stages getting your head round the requirements and understanding what the RCD and its related ISO standards are all about.

 

There are ways of "buying" assistance, either from a surveyor (more expensive) or from certain websites like CE Craft (less expensive) that will see you through the RCD minefield!

 

I'm doing it the hard way by reading a set of the ISO's via library access (cheap but very time consuming!).

 

The RYA website or Hampshire Trading Standards have a good first stage guide on what the RCD is about. Google will find them.

 

Richard

[steve hayes]

Do it if you feel you have the basic skills, it is very satisfying and you get a boat how you want it. You will swear and curse and get things wrong, but this is part of learning. As said before it will take longer than you think, Canal time is much slower than land time

I built a lot of the cabinets, etc. at home in the garage and this saves a lot of time.

The biggest thing that slowed me down is when herself deemed the boat ready for the saloon to be furnished, I lost my setup workshop.

I also agree with getting the boat painted ASAP, we had the sailaway with a finished paint job and think it was money well spent. How many boats do you see in rusting primer, it just a BIG job in the waiting.

Ten years on I'm starting to get ichy feet and want to do it again !!!!!

[blackrose]

Just double your original budget for the fit-out and you'll be in the right ball park.

 

Forget the boat yard - if you're fitting it out yourself then you won't need one. Apart from cost, the biggest hiderance to fitting out is trying to live on it while you're doing it - especially if other people are living on it too.

 

As far as needing an electrician and a gas fitter. If you do the research you could probably do both yourself. I didn't do my electrics but I did the gas and it was easy. I'm not saying you should do yours as I don't know your skills, but I found it much easier than I was led to believe by some people on this forum. I don't have any special skills but it's been tested and passed by a BSS examiner who said it was one of the best installations he'd seen.

 

As far as electrics, there is some good guidance on the smartgage website.

Edited January 14, 2014 by blackrose

[Nine of Hearts]

If you're worried about skills required, I've just (almost) finished a fit out and I only had domestic DIY skills prior to taking that on, and I did my own gas and electric installation, too. As others have said, it will take 3 times as long and cost twice as much as you expect, but do it, you know you want to.

[Rob@BSSOffice]

Another thought - Have you done any research about doing your boat to the RCD or just to the Boat Safety Scheme. Don't forget that if you are happy not to go for RCD compliance, you can't sell the boat legally for five years after you've first started to use it.

 

Building to the RCD isn't difficult but it can add a bit more time in the planning stages getting your head round the requirements and understanding what the RCD and its related ISO standards are all about.

 

There are ways of "buying" assistance, either from a surveyor (more expensive) or from certain websites like CE Craft (less expensive) that will see you through the RCD minefield!

 

I'm doing it the hard way by reading a set of the ISO's via library access (cheap but very time consuming!).

 

The RYA website or Hampshire Trading Standards have a good first stage guide on what the RCD is about. Google will find them.

 

Richard

 

Richard's advice is excellent and he has the T-shirt to prove it. In addition to the free advice on www.rya.org, you can purchase a subscription to the the RCD and supporting standards through the RYA online service.

 

Sticking to the ISOs and British Standards is the best route to go and coming to this forum to get get the practical knowledge to meet those standards is good. Or using Richard' other suggestion, employing a marine surveyor (probably about the cost equivalent of 150mm length of narrowboat) to see you through the build with stage visits will give you a sounding board to test ideas and approaches, as well as an extra pair of eyes and ears.

 

The surveyor can also visit the shell builder before you take delivery to ensure everything is correct and you are not buying a wrong 'un before even set foot in her. (spot welding where there should be seams is one example I have been told about).

 

It is an absolute minefield, but with good planning and good advice, many people have created dream boats.

 

Go for it if you think you have the staying power (but a half finished boat will not be very valuable despite all the thousands of pound you will have spent on her)

 

NB: Whilst there is a lot of good advice on this forum, there is also a lot of dangerous or financial risky nonsense as well. You will need to filter what you read carefully.

[stuart]

Somethings I recommend:

1. It will take at least twice what you think it will!

2. If you can build components in the workshop/garage at home do so, its much warmer and easier on dryland.

3. Get 240v electric as soon as you can

4. Gas and electric installs are relavitely simple on a boat - don't rule out doing them yourself just yet!

5. Paint as soon as you can - preferably before it goes in the water

[Hey Ho]

op here – It's good to hear from so many who've been there & done it, and from others who clearly know what they're talking about too.

As well as learning a lot, I've had some of my thoughts about what's involved confirmed. I was expecting a lot more negativity & prophecies of doom, so I'm actually surprised at how positive people have been. It looks like those who've done their own fit-out are all glad that they did.

Everything posted so far has made perfect sense and has been helpful. It's all much appreciated.

[Chalky]

4. Gas and electric installs are relavitely simple on a boat - don't rule out doing them yourself just yet!

 

Like many others I did my own gas fitting. I fitted the system then pressure tested it with argon from a welding cylinder. Once the leaks were fixed it was pressure tested with propane, any problems identified were fixed and the BSS inspector called before it was lit. It passed the BSS inspection first time.

If you've got a good relationship with your inspector it'll solve a lot of problems, often before they occur. The Boat Safety Scheme is a great assistance when doing your own fitting.

[smileypete]

Read a lot of build blogs and trawl the forums to suss out what the common pitfalls are (professional builds included!)

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[Arducius]

Doesn't the BSS state that the gas has to be installed by a competent person, and the only definition of that is someone on the Gas Safe register? Not trying to muddy the waters here, I am planning my gas at the moment and assumed I'd have to get someone to attach all the fittings etc. so it'd be good if I could do it myself.

 

As for the original question. If you go in with your eyes open then you'll be fine. I am in the process of fitting mine out and really enjopying it. I had pretty much zero DIY/carpentry/electrical knowledge but have read a lot and picked up the rest as I've gone along. It will take longer than you think but that doesn't matter if you're not in a rush. As an example it took me all day on Sunday to move my inverter and solar charger to thier new homes. It wasn't a complicated job, but sorting the cable runs, replacing old cables, routing the cables, mounting the units all took more time than I thought it would.

 

If you're interested there's a link to my build blog in my signature. It's not upt to date with all the work we've done, but it's getting there (slowly).

[Hey Ho]

Arducius, I've read the first few sections of your blog which has been interesting & easy to read. I'm going to have a look for others too; it seems like good way to soak up information.

 

Like you, I'd assumed I'd have to be qualified to work on boat gas installations. That's something else I've learned I was wrong about I learn so much better from this forum than I do from reading books.

[blackrose]

Doesn't the BSS state that the gas has to be installed by a competent person, and the only definition of that is someone on the Gas Safe register? Not trying to muddy the waters here, I am planning my gas at the moment and assumed I'd have to get someone to attach all the fittings etc. so it'd be good if I could do it myself.

 

If the boat is intended to be a permanent place of dwelling then you're supposed to employ the skills of someone on the gas safe register (or whatever it's called), if it's not a permanent dwelling then you can do it yourself. If like me you happen to think that a permanent dwelling is no more inherently hazardous than a temporary dwelling then make up your own mind on this regulation.

 

Richard's advice is excellent and he has the T-shirt to prove it. In addition to the free advice on www.rya.org, you can purchase a subscription to the the RCD and supporting standards through the RYA online service.

 

Sticking to the ISOs and British Standards is the best route to go and coming to this forum to get get the practical knowledge to meet those standards is good. Or using Richard' other suggestion, employing a marine surveyor (probably about the cost equivalent of 150mm length of narrowboat) to see you through the build with stage visits will give you a sounding board to test ideas and approaches, as well as an extra pair of eyes and ears.

 

The surveyor can also visit the shell builder before you take delivery to ensure everything is correct and you are not buying a wrong 'un before even set foot in her. (spot welding where there should be seams is one example I have been told about).

 

It is an absolute minefield, but with good planning and good advice, many people have created dream boats.

 

Go for it if you think you have the staying power (but a half finished boat will not be very valuable despite all the thousands of pound you will have spent on her)

 

NB: Whilst there is a lot of good advice on this forum, there is also a lot of dangerous or financial risky nonsense as well. You will need to filter what you read carefully.

 

Interesting that the man from the BSS makes no mention of working to those safety standards instead of the RCD.

 

If you don't intend to sell the boat within 5 years and follow the BSS Essential Guide 2nd edition then it's all fairly simple. It only becomes a minefield when you decide to follow the RCD and other unnecessary standards

 

http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/180428/bss%20guide%202005%20complete%20web.pdf

Edited January 16, 2014 by blackrose

[OldGoat]

 

If the boat is intended to be a permanent place of dwelling then you're supposed to employ the skills of someone on the gas safe register (or whatever it's called), if it's not a permanent dwelling then you can do it yourself. If like me you happen to think that a permanent dwelling is no more inherently hazardous than a temporary dwelling then make up your own mind on this regulation.

 

Interesting that the man from the BSS makes no mention of working to those standards instead of the RCD.

 

If you don't intend to sell the boat within 5 years and follow the BSS Essential Guide 2nd edition then it's all fairly simple. It only becomes a minefield when you decide to follow the RCD.

Most if not all BSS certifiers are Gas Safe qualified (they have to be in order to be able to check your system).

 

Do the work to the appropriate standard (see the BBS notes) and get him to approve it.

 

Job done.

[blackrose]

Most if not all BSS certifiers are Gas Safe qualified (they have to be in order to be able to check your system).

 

Do the work to the appropriate standard (see the BBS notes) and get him to approve it.

 

Job done.

 

I agree, but it's not strictly within the rules & regs (if you're going to live on the boat).

Edited January 16, 2014 by blackrose

[nailora]

We purchased a secondhand boat and renovated it, which is not helpful for your exact situation. But I can say that for using power tools and equipment it was very, very nice to be working in a boatyard/marina. Things like soldering irons are kind of unfair on your batteries.

 

You could also make it one of your first priorities to absolutely sort out your power management - engine, batteries, control panels, all that good stuff. Perhaps a partially finished sailaway is an attractive prospect, the kind that has ballast, a floor and an engine but nothing else (maybe insulation)?

 

My other advice is to look at a lot of boats, at boat shows or online or whatever, to figure out the layout; make a scrapbook or draw it out on paper to figure out if you can get what you want into the space you have with the money you've got. An L-shaped dinette will take extra time and money, and are you going to make the cushions yourself or throw down cash for a new set? A train corridor style boat is cheaper and easier to work out, but will it make you happy? I am definitely in favor of self-fit-outs, but there are a lot of clever uses of space that boatbuilders have refined over generations, and a lot of ways you can go wrong. I saw a really upsetting boat that someone had self-fitted-out in an open-plan layout with IKEA furniture and emulsion paint - it was pretty embarrassing. I'm sure you'd never do anything like that, but it's a good idea to start with a vision. Then you can work it out with on a spreadsheet (add 20% to all cash values as you'll want a slush fund.)

[Hey Ho]

 

If you don't intend to sell the boat within 5 years and follow the BSS Essential Guide 2nd edition then it's all fairly simple. It only becomes a minefield when you decide to follow the RCD and other unnecessary standards

 

 

I don't intend to sell the boat within 5 years. However, I have no way of knowing what my needs are going to be by then, or even next year really. I haven't looked into this in detail, but I'd hoped that by building to BSS standards I'd be on the right track & it would be possible to employ a company/surveyor or whatever to do the paperwork & the manual & the RCD certification.

 

I thought if I could get that service for under £1,000 all in, then it would be worth it to me as a kind of insurance against having to sell. Does that sound like a plan or am I being a bit naive? Serious question - I honestly don't know.

 

 

ETA - have realised that sounds like I'm not bothered about blowing £1,000. Nothing could be further from the truth - I would just be trying to protect a much bigger investment. In fact the thought of spending thousands on something I don't know much at all about is the biggest barrier to this whole thing for me.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Hey Ho

[Hey Ho]

Nailora, A lot of what you say is close to what I was already thinking. I thought a 240v supply would be essential for the majority of the fit-out. For what it would cost in terms of yard rental, or a bollard & mooring, it would more than save in time & effort.

I'd actually want to do the lining out & ballasting myself, not to save money, but to have done the whole job from start to finish. Funny you should mention upholstery – I have a book in front of me about it!

It is early stages, but I'm gradually soaking in the stuff that I think I'm going to need. I think I might have been subconsciously planning this for years...