Nasty incident on the Huddersfield

[NickF]

 

Strikes me though that at these particular locations the lock is emptying so fast behind you that by the time you've hopped off the boat to check the depth and got back on you could still risk grounding.

Yes but as long as you haven't put your bow over the cill the worst that will happen is you will descend with the water in the lock and remain afloat.

[nb Innisfree]

 

I agree - except in this particular accident I read it that the boater was single handed (apart from her dog), so would have to rely on somebody inexperienced such as a passing walker.

 

The bottom line really is that if there is a problem with these particular locks then they should be prioritised for repair before somebody is seriously injured or worse.

Of course, but if she had been fully aware of the risk she wouldn't have attempted to leave the lock, there's no compromise, stay in and suffer the inconvenience of waiting a long time for the pound to fill or lose your boat, it's that simple.

Yes but as long as you haven't put your bow over the cill the worst that will happen is you will descend with the water in the lock and remain afloat.

Correct, the worst that can happen is a long stay, either in the lock or below it. Stick the kettle on and wait, there's no other way.

[Guest]

Yes but as long as you haven't put your bow over the cill the worst that will happen is you will descend with the water in the lock and remain afloat.

 

Indeed but what seems to happen here is that they truly believe they are 'good to go' and only ground when they bow is sufficiently far forward to prevent a good blast of reverse getting you off.

[nb Innisfree]

 

Indeed but what seems to happen here is that they truly believe they are 'good to go' and only ground when they bow is sufficiently far forward to prevent a good blast of reverse getting you off.

If they thought it was good to go then they were either ignorant of the likely consequences or decided to take a gamble. IMO there's generally far too much ignorance of the physics involved in these sort of circumstances, quite often it's thought that the only risk is getting the skeg caught on the cill while descending.

 

It's in these sort of situations when canal boating is EXTREMELY dangerous without appearing to be so.

Edited November 4, 2013 by nb Innisfree

[Guest]

If they thought it was good to go then they were either ignorant of the likely consequences or decided to take a gamble. IMO there's generally far too much ignorance of the physics involved in these sort of circumstances, quite often it's thought that the only risk is getting the skeg caught on the cill while descending.

 

It's in these sort of situations when canal boating is EXTREMELY dangerous without appearing to be so.

 

I agree boaters have a need to take care, but I also think the Trust have a responsibility to make boating as safe as possible too, in this instance it appears they are not 'doing their' bit in fixing gates at a scene where there has now been more than one similar incident

[nb Innisfree]

 

I agree boaters have a need to take care, but I also think the Trust have a responsibility to make boating as safe as possible too, in this instance it appears they are not 'doing their' bit in fixing gates at a scene where there has now been more than one similar incident

Agreed, but it could happen anywhere even if the lock has no leaks and unaware boaters do the wrong thing.

 

Canal boating like the rest of the world is a dodgy old place for the unaware.

[BlueStringPudding]

Surely the pound above must have already been very low before the lock gate was open. That in itself is a warning sign to stay put it the lock with the gate still closed and adjust the water levels higher up.

 

I once scraped the boat along the top cill at the small staircase lock near Long Itch because I'd not got the levels right and one of the locks was leaking (my first staircase). And once I helped heave another boat off the top cill there and slowly refilled their lock for them to get them refloated. These things do happen but certainly the pound wasn't emptying.

I'm jolly careful with top cills now.

Edited November 4, 2013 by BlueStringPudding

[Naughty Cal]

Out of interest is this lock scheduled for any maintenance works this winter?

[Guest]

Out of interest is this lock scheduled for any maintenance works this winter?

 

Not that I can see.

 

http://www.waterscape.com/media/documents/25012.pdf

[mayalld]

Agreed, but it could happen anywhere even if the lock has no leaks and unaware boaters do the wrong thing.

 

Canal boating like the rest of the world is a dodgy old place for the unaware.

 

Actually, no it can't.

 

I suppose that there is the potential for really stupid people to empty a lock and pound with a boat sat on the upper cill, but;

 

1) It isn't a very likely scenario

2) It is more reversible (drop the lower paddles)

 

Grounding on an upper cill where the water level is dropping and you cannot stop the water leaking away is only going to happen with a defective lock.

 

It is a very serious situation that rapidly develops to the point of no return (once you run aground, the dropping water level means that within seconds, you will be hard aground and unable to back off), and there will be a critical delay in taking the only action that might save you (drawing water from above)

[Guest]

 

Actually, no it can't.

 

I suppose that there is the potential for really stupid people to empty a lock and pound with a boat sat on the upper cill, but;

 

1) It isn't a very likely scenario

2) It is more reversible (drop the lower paddles)

 

Grounding on an upper cill where the water level is dropping and you cannot stop the water leaking away is only going to happen with a defective lock.

 

It is a very serious situation that rapidly develops to the point of no return (once you run aground, the dropping water level means that within seconds, you will be hard aground and unable to back off), and there will be a critical delay in taking the only action that might save you (drawing water from above)

 

This is the difference for me too.

 

You will do all your normal checks and discover if a paddle is still partly up (done that!), make your move and then suddenly 'grind' something completely unexpected happens.

 

I can't recall of hearing about this type of incident at any other lock, the more usual catastrophe being a traditional 'cilling' so until I read the earlier thread it is something I don't think I would have been prepared for.

[nb Innisfree]

 

Actually, no it can't.

 

I suppose that there is the potential for really stupid people to empty a lock and pound with a boat sat on the upper cill, but;

 

1) It isn't a very likely scenario

2) It is more reversible (drop the lower paddles)

 

Grounding on an upper cill where the water level is dropping and you cannot stop the water leaking away is only going to happen with a defective lock.

 

It is a very serious situation that rapidly develops to the point of no return (once you run aground, the dropping water level means that within seconds, you will be hard aground and unable to back off), and there will be a critical delay in taking the only action that might save you (drawing water from above)

I've seen holidaymakers leave a bottom paddle open or partly open without realising, so have we in fact but the difference is we eventually realise and correct it whereas a novice could quite easily overlook it in an emergency, really stupid perhaps but IMO quite likely if the circumstances are there.

 

This is the difference for me too.

 

You will do all your normal checks and discover if a paddle is still partly up (done that!), make your move and then suddenly 'grind' something completely unexpected happens.

 

I can't recall of hearing about this type of incident at any other lock, the more usual catastrophe being a traditional 'cilling' so until I read the earlier thread it is something I don't think I would have been prepared for.

I think the most likely scenario is a low pound and a deep draughted boat making things a bit marginal, most boats these days are shallow. Its definitely an area that most boaters are quite unaware of.

[Neil2]

Just to reiterate, if a lock on the HNC is leaking badly on many sections you will never get the top gates open because of the shallow pound above. This is what happened to the couple we met. They were stuck in a lock that just simply would not make a level. The only way they could extricate themselves was by opening the paddles in the next lock above to use the pound above that so that the water flow overcame the flow out of the lock they were stuck in. Having got the gates open they had to leave the above lock paddles open as when they tried to shut them they instantly lost the cill clearance.

 

To be honest the state of the locks on the HNC is no worse than elsewhere on the network, it's just that the extremely shallow pounds leave no margin for error. It's a real technical challenge but I agree it shouldn't be dangerous and CRT I think should be a little more proactive maybe with some warning notices etc.

[FadeToScarlet]

I'm trying to think of something that could be done in this kind of emergency. Something you could do quickly.

 

Maybe a 10' wide plastic tarp, carried rolled up- clip the bottom corners onto a mudweight each and drop it in front of the gates, perhaps.

[mayalld]

I'm trying to think of something that could be done in this kind of emergency. Something you could do quickly.

 

Maybe a 10' wide plastic tarp, carried rolled up- clip the bottom corners onto a mudweight each and drop it in front of the gates, perhaps.

 

Run like the clappers to the lock above and draw water down is the answer.

 

If necessary, continue to the next lock and repeat.

[Rich]

I would have thought that occurrence like this, happening more than once and where the fault lies with the "guardians" of the structure allowing it to continue, would be a likely case for a compensation claim. Particularly where there is no notification of any possible problems.

 

I wonder what the insurance companies are going to make of it.

[The Lockie]

 

Boat Name:Cartref

Posted Today, 05:18 PM

 

I would have thought that occurrence like this, happening more than once and where the fault lies with the "guardians" of the structure allowing it to continue,

 

Totally agree!!

 

The navigation authority have a duty of care, the fact that there has been problems recently and that there is no scheduled stoppage to repair would place CART in a very difficult and no doubt expensive situation should they end up in court, bad enough to lose a boat but how could they justify this if someone were to lose their life.

[system 4-50]

I'm trying to think of something that could be done in this kind of emergency. Something you could do quickly.

 

Maybe a 10' wide plastic tarp, carried rolled up- clip the bottom corners onto a mudweight each and drop it in front of the gates, perhaps.

Bizz, where are you?

[billh]

Boat Name:Cartref

Posted Today, 05:18 PM

 

I would have thought that occurrence like this, happening more than once and where the fault lies with the "guardians" of the structure allowing it to continue,

 

Totally agree!!

 

The navigation authority have a duty of care, the fact that there has been problems recently and that there is no scheduled stoppage to repair would place CART in a very difficult and no doubt expensive situation should they end up in court, bad enough to lose a boat but how could they justify this if someone were to lose their life.

The problems are not just recent.

Working a famous wooden boat up there about a year after the HNC opened. Exact same problem, boat halfway out of the lock and she sticks on the top cill, water level dropping fast. One of the crew sprinted up to 10 lock and got all paddles up which just about made up for the leakage through the bottom gates of nine. If he hadn't done that so promptly the boat would have broken in two, with the weight of the Bolinder in the stern end.

As far as I know, nothing has been done to resolve the issues at this lock.

What needs to be done in priority order is:

1. Fix the leaks in the tail gates ( maybe just fit them properly)

2. Repair the leaking cill

3.Replace the useless hydraulic paddle gear with conventional rack & pinion ( nobody in CART knows how to fix the hydraulics beyond topping up with very expensive biodegradeable oil when its leaked out)

4, Dredge the short pound between 9 & 10 to give as much water capacity as possible and raise the byewash level

5. Get the local staff "on the ground" to do minor maintenance on the locks , all year round, instead of just driving out to places all day just to clear the byewash trash grids of leaves- while they are doing that , they could oil a few paddles, check gates are closing properly, report faults that they can't fix themselves.

 

 

Bill

[The Lockie]

Bill

 

Afraid I cannot agree with your priority points they all have the same flaw. They are all far to sensible to be implemented :-) :-) :-)

[Coelum Ruat]

I talked with a couple going the other way through these locks last week. They had been stranded in the bottom of one of the locks because there was little or no water in the pound below. They waited a couple of hours for CRT to re-water the stretch from above. Don't know which lock. I spoke with them by the university lock 1E.

[Pete & Helen]

With the stoppages on the Rochdale I would think more people will be travelling along this route over the next few months so hope CaRT at least put out some warning (with an explanation), to boaters to make check there is enough water. It seems very obvious once you read about this type of grounding but I can look back on a couple of occasions where I now realise I must have been very close to this situation and must have only cleared the cill by fractions of an inch.

[RichardH]

I raised this directly with CRT in the summer, suggesting at the very least a warning notice.

 

I received a we'll look into it.

 

Which I suspect means nothing has happened.

[Neil2]

I appreciate the points about maintenance but there is a chicken and egg thing going on here.

 

I'll wager the HNC is probably the least used canal on the network, so CRT are not going to be prioritising maintenance work when there are scores of issues with lock gates/paddles etc etc elsewhere on the system.

 

On the other hand it may well be that many potential visitors are put off using the canal because of the difficulties of navigation and occasional high profile accidents which are mostly, but not entirely, caused by maintenance problems.

 

Personally I think the HNC, like many of the northern canals, has declined in popularity for reasons other than the standard of maintenance, so I wouldn't be too quick to judge CRT's performance. From our experience the maintenance team there work very hard, even if most of it is reactive. It won't cut it with the insurance companies though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[blackrose]

I can't recall of hearing about this type of incident at any other lock, the more usual catastrophe being a traditional 'cilling' so until I read the earlier thread it is something I don't think I would have been prepared for.

 

That's right, I don't think many of us would have been prepared for cilling at the bow when going uphill. The main things you look for when going uphill are not getting water in the well deck from opening gate paddles too early or quickly and not getting a bow fender caught in the gate. I'd be having a claim-up against CRT for leaving this lock in such hazardous state if it were me.

 

One thing still I don't understand is how it's possible to even partially fill a lock that's leaking so badly to get in, and how would you fill it if going downhill? The answer is probably in one of these posts if only I could be bothered to read them all...

Edited November 4, 2013 by blackrose