Is this normal or did we encounter a complete twunt?

[Jerra]

However, this is not a school and the guide book is exactly that, unless you can cite some examples of boaters being in trouble for not following its advice.

You seem to misunderstand me. I am not talking about guidance produced by a school I am talking about national guidance produced by the authorities who had then control over schools - just like this is guidance produced by an "authority" that has control over the canals. A reasonable comparison I believe.

 

I suppose I should just accept that there are people who are unprepared to accept that organisations that have control over something have a right (I know you won't accept the word right but I can't think of a better) to issue guidance and expect those using whatever they provide to follow it.

 

I suspect the more people who take your attitude the more likely it will be over the years that the CRT will seek (and probably get) the powers to impose its will on boaters.

[carlt]

Hmm, fine if everyone did it...

 

I assume most of the wear and tear on locks comes from the paddle gear rather than opening and shutting gates, or is this not the case?

Yes so everybody should do it rather than "vilifying and despising" those that do.

 

Paddle gear has to be used regardless so its wear and tear is not relevant to this argument although "back in the day" it was usual to leave paddles up as welll as gates open.

 

I suspect the more people who take your attitude the more likely it will be over the years that the CRT will seek (and probably get) the powers to impose its will on boaters.

I suspect the more people who take my attitude the more likely it is that sensible change will occur and the guidelines will correctly suggest that gates are left open unless signage instructs otherwise and the masses will follow those of us who have already taken the initiative.

Edited May 10, 2013 by carlt

[Terence]

So the crux of the debate is if you meet a gate that is open you only have to close the one and then open the one, if coming the other direction you have to close two then open the one, and in the case of the original post while the chaps boat is half out keep closing the gate many times till you chop his boat in half.

[carlt]

.... in the case of the original post while the chaps boat is half out keep closing the gate many times till you chop his boat in half.

No, if anyone had done that to me then his boat would be pulled out of the lock and, if I was in a good mood, moored up.

[Ex- Member]

Great answer - however it doesn't QUANTIFY anything! I think you need to look up the meaning of the word.....

 

It would be very difficult to quantify and doesn't need to be. Common sense suggests that something used less will not wear out as quick, why you need a quantified figure for this really doesn't make sense. The same applies to the other points, they are all clearly of benefit to the canal system as anyone with a modicum of common sense would agree, so again why the need to quantify, it's simple better as in drinking muddy water might not as good for you as clear water, but most would choose the clear water happily knowing it's better and not necessarily needing to know how many bad bacteria the muddy water contains.

 

I still note you offer no advantages of closing lock gates. Just one a good reason would suffice, I wouldn't think I would need it quantifying though.

[Paul C]

It would be very difficult to quantify and doesn't need to be. Common sense suggests that something used less will not wear out as quick, why you need a quantified figure for this really doesn't make sense. The same applies to the other points, they are all clearly of benefit to the canal system as anyone with a modicum of common sense would agree, so again why the need to quantify, it's simple better as in drinking muddy water might not as good for you as clear water, but most would choose the clear water happily knowing it's better and not necessarily needing to know how many bad bacteria the muddy water contains.

 

I still note you offer no advantages of closing lock gates. Just one a good reason would suffice, I wouldn't think I would need it quantifying though.

 

For the sake of clarity, I am in the "leave the gates open" group - but out of interest more than anything, am interested in the advantage being quantified. If it was very marginal, for example, then its benefits could be outweighed by other factors. Basically decisions should be based on a number of factors.

 

There's actually a good amount of analysis that can be done regarding the savings in time/effort, carlt's quantification earlier is very simplistic. For example, traffic doesn't typically flow 50% in one direction and 50% in the other, there's patterns to it which depend on many things (time of day, location of other locks, location of marinas and other stopping/starting points). Locks aren't always 100% against you if you close the gates - sometimes a little leakage occurs which puts some water into the lock (thus needs stopping, then a paddle opened to drain/refill it). And at other times, the gates don't seal effectively when its full/empty so its level anyway - and if going up, can be opened gently using the boat to very slowly push them open (not ramming, not wearing any infrastructure, etc - GENTLY!)

 

I was hoping to share insight into a little more detail on the analysis, but hey-ho.

[ditchcrawler]

I pretty much agree with you on everything you say. But when there's a rule you disagree with, the best way to deal with it is to lobby for the rule to be changed, either with the 'authority' or by building a consensus of boaters. Simply ignoring rules which you happen to disagree with is anti-social and seems pretty selfish to me.

O I wish Adrian was a member here

[nicknorman]

I am gratified that neither Carlt or julynian ever venture onto the main part of the canal system where I might encounter them. Carlt doesn't have time for boating, he is too busy formulating the next argumentative point, and julynian seems to have run aground some years ago and is only just getting off the bottom. Phew, the system will be pleasant for a little while longer.

[Ex- Member]

For the sake of clarity, I am in the "leave the gates open" group - but out of interest more than anything, am interested in the advantage being quantified. If it was very marginal, for example, then its benefits could be outweighed by other factors. Basically decisions should be based on a number of factors.

 

There's actually a good amount of analysis that can be done regarding the savings in time/effort, carlt's quantification earlier is very simplistic. For example, traffic doesn't typically flow 50% in one direction and 50% in the other, there's patterns to it which depend on many things (time of day, location of other locks, location of marinas and other stopping/starting points). Locks aren't always 100% against you if you close the gates - sometimes a little leakage occurs which puts some water into the lock (thus needs stopping, then a paddle opened to drain/refill it). And at other times, the gates don't seal effectively when its full/empty so its level anyway - and if going up, can be opened gently using the boat to very slowly push them open (not ramming, not wearing any infrastructure, etc - GENTLY!)

 

I was hoping to share insight into a little more detail on the analysis, but hey-ho.

 

 

Well then a study would be in order. But on use of lock gates alone if their used 50% less, then you could assume 50% less wear & tear due to use.

 

Same applies to use of lock moorings and the rest. But it's clearly more beneficial than not and would by at minimum a decent margin. That's enough to convince me, especially when the alternative argument is "it's written in a guide book" That doesn't need quantifying either.

 

I despair sometimes how basic common sense no longer rules.

[carlt]

I am gratified that neither Carlt or julynian ever venture onto the main part of the canal system where I might encounter them. Carlt doesn't have time for boating, he is too busy formulating the next argumentative point, and julynian seems to have run aground some years ago and is only just getting off the bottom. Phew, the system will be pleasant for a little while longer.

What is the point in being so obnoxious?

 

Why can't you just have a sensible discussion like the rest of us are managing?

 

carlt's quantification earlier is very simplistic.

That doesn't make it wrong.

[nicknorman]

What is the point in being so obnoxious?

 

Why can't you just have a sensible discussion like the rest of us are managing?

 

Because its becoming a tedious argument for the sake of an argument, amongst a handful of opinionated people who are not familiar with the main part of the system regardless of the fact that nearly all the other 10,000 or so boaters go along with guidance because it keeps things running smoothly and happily. Resorting to obnoxiousness when I can't be bothered with the argument is a technique I learnt from you amongst others.

[Ex- Member]

Because its becoming a tedious argument for the sake of an argument, amongst a handful of opinionated people who are not familiar with the main part of the system regardless of the fact that nearly all the other 10,000 or so boaters go along with guidance because it keeps things running smoothly and happily. Resorting to obnoxiousness when I can't be bothered with the argument is a technique I learnt from you amongst others.

 

Because its becoming a tedious argument for the sake of an argument,

 

Find another thread then or switch off

[GUMPY]

O I wish Adrian was a member here

A true professional when it comes to this subject!

He would shut up the shut them up brigade.

 

As for me I leave open unless either they obviously leak, I know there is someone immediately behind or the locks have exceptional signs on them as most do round here.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Loddon

[carlt]

Because its becoming a tedious argument for the sake of an argument, amongst a handful of opinionated people who are not familiar with the main part of the system regardless of the fact that nearly all the other 10,000 or so boaters go along with guidance because it keeps things running smoothly and happily. Resorting to obnoxiousness when I can't be bothered with the argument is a technique I learnt from you amongst others.

Surely if you don't wish to continue the discussion you just don't click on the thread any more?

 

I don't resort to personal insults when I tire of an argument, I just stop posting.

 

All you are doing is deliberately spoiling an amicable discussion because you are bored.

 

How pathetic!

[nicknorman]

 

 

 

Find another thread then or switch off

One of your better ideas.

[Ex- Member]

One of your better ideas.

 

Thank you

[carlt]

For the sake of clarity,....Locks aren't always 100% against you if you close the gates

Sorry...For the sake of clarity I should have said that the gates are always 100% against you (unless the gate happens to be one of the many that refuse to stay closed)..

 

I shall edit my post accordingly.

[matty40s]

I am gratified that neither Carlt or julynian ever venture onto the main part of the canal system where I might encounter them. Carlt doesn't have time for boating, he is toro busy formulating the next argumentative point, and julynian seems to have run aground some years ago and is only just getting off the bottom. Phew, the system will be pleasant for a little

twhile longer.

Well , as someone whi covered over 2000 miles last year, I agree with Carlts logic and reasoning.

In winter i would generally close gates behind me and if someone is following, I will usually backset for them, however, other than that, would leave open most gates.

The guy in the OP was a twunt, i would have moved his boat and continued my journey.

In wide locks, a narrowboat only leaving one gate open allows half the leakage of a fatboat leaving both open.

[Ex- Member]

Well , as someone whi covered over 2000 miles last year, I agree with Carlts logic and reasoning.

In winter i would generally close gates behind me and if someone is following, I will usually backset for them, however, other than that, would leave open most gates.

The guy in the OP was a twunt, i would have moved his boat and continued my journey.

In wide locks, a narrowboat only leaving one gate open allows half the leakage of a fatboat leaving both open.

 

In wide locks, a narrowboat only leaving one gate open allows half the leakage of a fatboat leaving both open.

Hi Matty

 

Just noticed the wink, I almost thought you were being serious

[john4647]

Having read all of the later posts (not the ones referring to the original subject), I have decided on the following course of action:

 

1. If on wide canals, just close one lock gate.

 

2. On narrow canals, leave every other lock open.

 

I think this could well please all of the people all of the time.

[DHutch]

Ive not read the full thread, but yes, it appears he's an idiot by the sounds of it, and to be honest if you couldn't see one lock from the next, you where going above an beyond to even offer reopening the gate.

 

I would always make life easier for people than harder, and favor the single hander over a boat with more crew, but unless they where very close would have just got on with it with an applogy for having not been able to see him.

 

 

Daniel

[RichardN]

So now can you give the benefits of closing lock gates other than "it's in the handbook"

 

Gates not shut are a pain on wide locks as you need to walk round both sides to shut them and then you shut them again when leaving so you do it all twice. Unless the "handbook" changes it is simply selfish.

 

There is an empty pound this evening below KIngs Langley because gates were not shut. I am not sure what it is this year but I don't think I have seen so many paddles not shut properly and locks not left empty where signs say please leave empty, nice soggy towpath to cycle through and I think I have seen more empty pounds then ever before on the lower GU. Just as well there is too much water at the moment.

[ditchcrawler]

Well then a study would be in order. But on use of lock gates alone if their used 50% less, then you could assume 50% less wear & tear due to use.

 

Same applies to use of lock moorings and the rest. But it's clearly more beneficial than not and would by at minimum a decent margin. That's enough to convince me, especially when the alternative argument is "it's written in a guide book" That doesn't need quantifying either.

 

I despair sometimes how basic common sense no longer rules.

And there would be 50% less chance of upsetting someone when you moor on the lock mooring

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Unfortunately there are the same amount of arses on the Cut as off it, if you dwelled on it you would take up stamp collecting instead, Shrug your shoulders and put the kettle on.

What's wrong with stamp collecting?

I specialise in zvemsto's!

 

Glenn

 

I'll put the kettle on

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

If a boat is travelling behind you (in sight) but no boat is travelling in sight in the other direction, do you still leave the gates open as you leave the lock?

If they're single handed, I'll shut the gate behind me and raise a paddle to fill (or empty) as a help. If they're a full team, I will leave the gate open, usually after we've acknowledged each other, so I can stay ahead.

Or if it's a wide lock I will wait and share, then work my half of the lock.