Leisure mooring lowdown

[Graham Davis]

What area are you looking to moor in? Am i correct in saying Birmingham? There is a RESIDENTIAL mooring on the Engine Arm on the auction site at the moment with a reserve price similar to your average leisure mooring price. I'm not saying you should bid on it straight away, but i've been keeping an eye on the auction site for about 3 months now and there have been a few Birmingham residential moorings pop up.

 

That mooring has been pointed out to the OP at least twice now, in other threads, but she has said she needs to be within a bus journey of Halesown for her childrens schooling, and I doubt that the edge of Smethwick is that.

 

TBH I think the OP needs to think twice about moving onto a boat at all for the moment.

[luctor et emergo]

You are doing this 'cloack and dagger'? Why? Because your children may not like it? Not telling them of your desired plan, but suddenly springing it on them, may not have the desired effect..

 

It sounds more like this may not be for you, unless you get a large widebeam, on a permanent mooring, with permanent hookup to sevices..

[Homer 123]

Slightly changing the subject but which site are these moorings advertised on? I've search CRT and can't find any moorings listed anywhere!

[ditchcrawler]

Thanks for all that info Higgs.

 

At the moment I've had the children with me and therefore since I'm not telling them about my (fairly well formed) plans until such times as I have a bit better idea of what mooring I can get at my preferred location I have to make enquiries when they're not around (it's all very cloak and dagger at the moment!!)

I am wondering how old your children are and if they are still young enough just to do as they are told without rebelling if they are not as keen as you on a life in a Narrowboat. If they are not it may be worth having them on side before committing to this way of life.

[junior]

That mooring has been pointed out to the OP at least twice now, in other threads, but she has said she needs to be within a bus journey of Halesown for her childrens schooling, and I doubt that the edge of Smethwick is that.

 

TBH I think the OP needs to think twice about moving onto a boat at all for the moment.

 

To be honest thats nobody but the OPs decision to make, what will help though is if we answer all her questions as honestly as possible. From what I have read though so far, to make it work some flexibility is required.

 

I dont know much about birmingham, is it not possible to get a bus from Smethwick to Halesowen? Are there any CaRT or private moorings/marinas near there? Id like to offer as much contructive positive help as possible, then allow the OP to decide if it will work or not.

[Richard10002]

You are doing this 'cloack and dagger'? Why? Because your children may not like it? Not telling them of your desired plan, but suddenly springing it on them, may not have the desired effect..

 

It sounds more like this may not be for you, unless you get a large widebeam, on a permanent mooring, with permanent hookup to sevices..

 

What about the alternative where she tells the kids of her plans, they get really excited about it, then she has to let them down when she can't deliver the dream.

 

You have no idea of the how, or the why, of the OPs plan. Perhaps she finds out if it's possible, then she tells the kids and asks how they feel about it. If they don't like the idea, she shelves it.

[Halesowenmum]

To be honest thats nobody but the OPs decision to make, what will help though is if we answer all her questions as honestly as possible. From what I have read though so far, to make it work some flexibility is required.

 

I dont know much about birmingham, is it not possible to get a bus from Smethwick to Halesowen? Are there any CaRT or private moorings/marinas near there? Id like to offer as much contructive positive help as possible, then allow the OP to decide if it will work or not.

 

Last sentence - thank you - that's what I'm looking for! :-)

 

Preceding sentence - yes, you could but it wouldn't just be one it would be at least two and my daughter is only 11 and I think crossing Bham on her own on two or more buses isn't an option I'd feel happy about. I wouldn't mind at all her catching one bus but you have to think of dark nights and hanging around at bus stops - there's some bl**dy odd people out there.

 

Ditchcrawler to a lesser extent and luctor et emerge moreso: Can I just say, good grief – you’ve taken a simple comment and turned it into me secretly moving my children onto a narrowboat with no notice and no involvement at all. Where did I say that I wouldn’t be speaking to them about it and just waiting until the removals van came to the front door? I didn’t say that you see – that’s just what you’ve extrapolated from my one comment based on common sense which is that rather than get them excited about it at this early stage, I will find out more and firm up various figures and so on, before I bring them into the decision making process. At the ages of 11 and 13 they are perfectly capable of seeing pros and cons to different options including this one.

 

However, if at the end of the day it becomes clear to me that this is the right course of action, then it is what will happen. I imagine had I said "ooh, I can't do it if the kids don't like it" I'd be getting slated for mollycoddling and spoiling them!! At the end of the day I have to do what's best for my children and that decision lies, ultimately, with me.

I'd love to divulge every single reason why I'm thinking of doing this but a. it's not anyone's business really and b. I don't feel that an open forum is the right place to disclose my personal and financial circumstances in fine detail simply in order to mollify others. I am only too aware of why I'm considering this option and as I've said before, it's not some random whim or a romantic and misguided notion of living on the cheap on a boat. There are many contributing factors.

 

Having ready many posts now and especially the very helpful and informative one from Junior which is the most useful précis of the leisure mooring situation I’ve read so far, I’m now very much clearer on the difference between residential and leisure moorings and my preference would be and always will be for a residential mooring. It is these very forums that introduced me to the notion of leisure moorings by the way hence why I’ve been looking into it to ensure I understand it. One would have thought that was a good thing...

In order to be sensible and cover any gaps when I might have a boat but not yet have a residential mooring (you'll forgive me if I insist on having an abode to live in with my children), I wanted to understand the leisure mooring option fully as it may well have to be an option temporarily. For a few months say until I can get onto a residential vacancy it may not be perfect, but it may have to do for a while.

 

Yes you are right Graham Davis thank you, I have indeed seen the Junction moorings and had a good look at them on the CaRT website. It is indeed too far north and west of Bham to be of use really but I thank everyone who has recommended them as being available as I hadn't heard of that location before and I’m gradually building up more ideas of what’s available where with each recommendation. When I go out to look at a couple of boats next weekend it will give me the opportunity to talk to as many people as I get chance to and find out what other mooring opportunities there may be which will be very valuable.

 

As to not moving onto a boat at the moment firstly I haven't even decided yet if that's what I'm doing definitely having not even looked at a boat yet and waiting to hear whether my mooring application has even been accepted at my preferred marina. And as I said in a previous paragraph, you're not privy to my situation and thus you're missing a huge part of the picture, which isn't something I can share on here. I guess you’ll just have to assume that there are very good sound reasons for why I’m considering this and that will have to do.

 

Richard 10002 – at last, the voice of reason. Thank you.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Halesowenmum

[Ray]

I doubt anyone on here has anything other than the best interests of you and your children at heart. The comments they make are heartfelt and in the most based on experience and knowledge. It is only right that people express their concerns if they fear that you may be heading in the wrong direction.

 

I suspect several could be aghast at the thought of someone who has little knowledge of our inland waterways and their craft going to look at just a couple of boats and using that as a trigger or otherwise with regard to a possible future life on the canals.

 

I would hope that I am supported by others in suggesting that you should be looking at a larger number of boats or, at least, the various broker based Internet sites to get some idea of what is on offer. Ignore prices, look at shapes and features. Think of the practicalities of kitchen designs and bedroom layouts. For instance, you'll need to have at least two and probably three bedrooms - that's about 20 feet. The loo/shower will need anothher 6 feet, the kitchen a similar amount. That's 32 feet without living space. The engine room/stern deck is probably another 10 feet and the bow at least 6 feet. The minimum length without a living room is thus 48 feet and that excludes wardrobes and assumes all storage is under beds. Can the three of you spend a fair proportion of your lives in what cannot readily exceed 22 feet and is liable to be nearer 15ft or less unless you buy a full length boat. What will the kids do on the boat during the holidays. Will they always be able to get on?

 

I know of people who have had to wait several years for a residential mooring so please don't assume that they appear that regularly in the area that you desire (unless you have evidence to the contrary) and posts elsewhere seem to indicate a clampdown on people living (what amounts to) illegally on boats on leisure moorings.

 

The longest narrowboat is 70 feet in length and a shade under 7 feet wide. That probably equates to the size of two average(?) house rooms although because of the low roofs in boats the cubic capacity is probably significantly less than that in two house rooms. Could the three of you manage in that space, let alone anything smaller?

 

Finally, whilst I recognise that selling up may be something that you have little control over please remember that living full time on a boat doesn't necessarily work out any cheaper than living ashore but once you're off the land you may have a major problem returning thereto if the boat life doesn't work out.

 

If after all these posts you still think that the boaty life is for you and the kids, take them on a boat holiday over the upcoming school holidays and see how you all get on. Don't forget that they (no doubt like you) have numerous friends, will a boat life cut them off from those friends?

 

And finally, if you still feel this is the way to go you'll find canal boaters in general a friendly and helpful bunch who won't treat you any different to the way they treat anyone else.

[Halesowenmum]

I suspect several could be aghast at the thought of someone who has little knowledge of our inland waterways and their craft going to look at just a couple of boats and using that as a trigger or otherwise with regard to a possible future life on the canals.

 

 

You see, there you go again. You're doing exactly what the other two posters did who assumed I was going to drag my children out of their house and onto a narrowboat with no notice, even though as no point did I say that was what I was going to do.

 

What I said was this:

 

At the weekend I hope to go and look at a couple of boats.

 

That was all I said. What I didn't say was:

 

I'm going to look at a couple of boats this weekend and I'm going to plan my whole future around just this and never ever go and see any other boats at all.

 

Did I say that?

 

No.

 

This kind of response isn't useful because you're giving opinions and advice on things that I haven't even said.

[Tuscan]

I'd chill I think the tone and sentiment of Ray's post was exactly right. The point he is making regarding space and teenagers need for it is in my opinion very relevant.

[Halesowenmum]

I would hope that I am supported by others in suggesting that you should be looking at a larger number of boats or, at least, the various broker based Internet sites to get some idea of what is on offer. Ignore prices, look at shapes and features. Think of the practicalities of kitchen designs and bedroom layouts. For instance, you'll need to have at least two and probably three bedrooms - that's about 20 feet. The loo/shower will need anothher 6 feet, the kitchen a similar amount. That's 32 feet without living space. The engine room/stern deck is probably another 10 feet and the bow at least 6 feet. The minimum length without a living room is thus 48 feet and that excludes wardrobes and assumes all storage is under beds. Can the three of you spend a fair proportion of your lives in what cannot readily exceed 22 feet and is liable to be nearer 15ft or less unless you buy a full length boat. What will the kids do on the boat during the holidays. Will they always be able to get on?

 

Here we go again. You’ve gone right ahead and assumed I’m just looking at two boats this weekend and then I won't look at any more ever again and I'll base my entire decision on that. I have NEVER stated anywhere that I would only look at two boats and only two boats. I did say I'd look at two this weekend - sorry it can't be more but hey ho, there you go.

 

Did I miss you sitting beside me in bed this evening when I spent several hours perusing about 5 different boat selling sites? Or last week when I drew up a detailed plan of what layout I need based on what would work practically for me and my family? Because I'm pretty sure I would have noticed someone extra in the bed if this had been the case. I've got a clear idea of what layout I need and that is informing which boats I look at, within a budget, yes, of course within a budget.

 

I have no idea what the question about what my children will do in the holidays is to do with, sorry.

 

I am STOKED people are concerned and do not want me to make a mistake. That’s brilliant. But PLEASE: Do not reply if you are going, with every post, to state a whole load of incorrect assumptions about what you THINK I’m saying or doing when that’s not what I’ve said or am doing at all.

 

Thank you. I also am aware that a residential mooring may be some time coming - one reason why going to see tons of boats right now may just be a daft thing to do.

 

The longest narrowboat is 70 feet in length and a shade under 7 feet wide. That probably equates to the size of two average(?) house rooms although because of the low roofs in boats the cubic capacity is probably significantly less than that in two house rooms. Could the three of you manage in that space, let alone anything smaller?

 

Finally, whilst I recognise that selling up may be something that you have little control over please remember that living full time on a boat doesn't necessarily work out any cheaper than living ashore but once you're off the land you may have a major problem returning thereto if the boat life doesn't work out. Some of us have limited choice and a NB is actually a more viable option than trying to continue in a land-based home. As I've said umpteen times now, I am not going into my finances and other reasons so you'll just have to go with me on this one, that it's a very high likelihood that NBing will become the option I have to go for

 

If after all these posts you still think that the boaty life is for you and the kids, take them on a boat holiday over the upcoming school holidays and see how you all get on. Don't forget that they (no doubt like you) have numerous friends, will a boat life cut them off from those friends? 1. I can't afford to take them on a holiday and 2. no it won't cut them off from their friends - the marina is right in the town where they go to school - I'll make sure it doesn't as well.

 

And finally, if you still feel this is the way to go you'll find canal boaters in general a friendly and helpful bunch who won't treat you any different to the way they treat anyone else. This is just one of the many positives I look forward to if I do indeed choose this life. My neighbours are bl**dy awful and I'd love to be somewhere within a like minded supportive community of interesting and varied people. It's got to be one of the most important positives for me.

[Ray]

With due respect, may I point out that I said that I thought several (people) could be aghast at the thought.

 

I did not say that is what you had or were doing, nor did I mention your children in that respect.

 

We've all been there and done that with regard to rose coloured glasses. Heaven knows, some of us probably wouldn't have a boat now if we didn't. It doesn't mean that because we bought a boat that we'd still have bought a boat if we'd viewed certain elements differently - i.e. knew what we know now.

 

We know we won't dissuade someone who may be determined - and I'm not saying that you are - to move onto a boat. We're simply trying to be realistic and in our own individual ways point out everything that we think you should be aware of/investigate. We're not giving you any more or any less advice that we would or have done for others.

 

What we'd all hate is for you to think we didn't care and didn't give you enough information to make an informed decision on what will be a huge step for you and the kids.

 

I don't recall it being mentioned here or elsewhere but have you done a fairly detailed analysis of the costs of owning and running a boat? You would for example need to factor in the cost of bus fares for the kids if you move out of the catchment area for their school. That could also apply if you move house but things like that are often overlooked.

 

Please remember that boats deteriorate far fastet than property normally appreciates and you have no guarantee that should you need to sell the boat even soon after you buy it that you will get anywhere near what you pay for it.

 

Feel free to ask as many questions as you wish but please don't mistake the knowledge and experience that we're trying to impart as anything as other than constructive comment. Please remember that some people can express themselves in words much better than others.

[bizzard]

I would hope that I am supported by others in suggesting that you should be looking at a larger number of boats or, at least, the various broker based Internet sites to get some idea of what is on offer. Ignore prices, look at shapes and features. Think of the practicalities of kitchen designs and bedroom layouts. For instance, you'll need to have at least two and probably three bedrooms - that's about 20 feet. The loo/shower will need anothher 6 feet, the kitchen a similar amount. That's 32 feet without living space. The engine room/stern deck is probably another 10 feet and the bow at least 6 feet. The minimum length without a living room is thus 48 feet and that excludes wardrobes and assumes all storage is under beds. Can the three of you spend a fair proportion of your lives in what cannot readily exceed 22 feet and is liable to be nearer 15ft or less unless you buy a full length boat. What will the kids do on the boat during the holidays. Will they always be able to get on?

 

Here we go again. You’ve gone right ahead and assumed I’m just looking at two boats this weekend and then I won't look at any more ever again and I'll base my entire decision on that. I have NEVER stated anywhere that I would only look at two boats and only two boats. I did say I'd look at two this weekend - sorry it can't be more but hey ho, there you go.

 

Did I miss you sitting beside me in bed this evening when I spent several hours perusing about 5 different boat selling sites? Or last week when I drew up a detailed plan of what layout I need based on what would work practically for me and my family? Because I'm pretty sure I would have noticed someone extra in the bed if this had been the case. I've got a clear idea of what layout I need and that is informing which boats I look at, within a budget, yes, of course within a budget.

 

I have no idea what the question about what my children will do in the holidays is to do with, sorry.

 

I am STOKED people are concerned and do not want me to make a mistake. That’s brilliant. But PLEASE: Do not reply if you are going, with every post, to state a whole load of incorrect assumptions about what you THINK I’m saying or doing when that’s not what I’ve said or am doing at all.

Haven't read all the posts but it seems like your children are approaching the age when they will want ''demand'' their own space, at the very least their own bedrooms. So that will be what 3 bedrooms plus living room and all the rest, mmm quite a big boat might be needed I reckon.

[Tuscan]

Haven't read all the posts but it seems like your children are approaching the age when they will want ''demand'' their own space, at the very least their own bedrooms. So that will be what 3 bedrooms plus living room and all the rest, mmm quite a big boat might be needed I reckon.

 

 

Careful now, the detailed plans have already been drawn up.

[Dave_P]

This thread was about what meaning of 'leisure mooring' was. It wasn't a thread about the practicalities of living afloat with 2 kids. The fact is that there are plenty of people out there happily bringing up a family on their boat. Granted, it's not for everyone but I'd suspect that the best person to make that call in this case is the parent. In this, and in Halesowenmum's other thread, there's been a fair amount of insinuation that she doesn't know what she's doing, she is going to jump in without thinking things through and that she doesn't have her childrens' best interests at heart. All this from people who know nothing about her situation.

 

The very fact that she come on here, and is asking these questions indicates to me that she's thinking long and hard about whether this is the right thing for her and her family.

[Ray]

I've no wish to fill this page with multi-quotes of other posts.

 

I may have posed a few questions in my earlier posts. Neither I nor many of the others on here want the answers, we're just hoping that you have asked yourself the questions we've raised.

 

Please remember that you are only drip feeding us with information in response to posts that we make. You'd not, for example, previously told us that you've seen other boats, planned to see other boats or been trawling the broker sites. In the absence of that information we highlighted things that we thought you'd need to consider. If you've already done so then there's no problem, you can tick that off the list that we're hoping you are building up from our comments.

 

I may love a specific make of car. People may suggest that it is costly on fuel but I may have factored that in. However, I may not have factored in that (say) a replacement catalytic converter cost several thousand pounds and that they need changing every three years. If only someone had pointed that out I wouldn't have bought the car!

 

I hope your kids get on, I don't need to know, but I would suggest that you need to factor that in. If you have then fair enough, if you haven't we've made our point and moved on.

 

We don't know whether there is a practical alternative to boating for you and we don't need to know. What we would really hope is that you have explored all the alternatives with as much vigour as you seem to be persuing the idea of a boat based life and compared your current situation with all the options. Again, we don't need to know the answer, we are just expressing a point that may be a little cloudy to see in the distance with the wrong shade of glasses on.

 

I worked out the other day that I reckon my boat costs me about £5000 per annum (or about £100 per week) without actually moving it or living on it so there's nowhere near the wear and tear of a liveaboard. I'm factoring in engine servicing, mooring charges, licences, insurance, new batteries every few years, saftey certification, hull blacking and a repaint every now and again in an attempt to stave off the rapid speed of depreciation. You've probably considered all those things but if you haven't its food for thought. Please be aware that I fitted my own boat out so I am reasonably sure that most of the other maintenance and repairs are within my capabilities and won't cost me anything other than replacement parts. I could unscrew everything on my boat if I had to for that purpose but I know of many boats where everything is glued together and won't come apart. I know that I have no joins in the electrical cables that I can't access. You may be very DIY orientated or a quick learner - I don't need to know - but you do need to be alert to the need to factor these things in as well. Just in case you're not aware, you can't call the gas board in to fix an LPG stove for example and the electricity board will laugh at you if you ask them to come and find a short circuit on your lighting.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Ray

[Ray]

This thread was about what meaning of 'leisure mooring' was. It wasn't a thread about the practicalities of living afloat with 2 kids. The fact is that there are plenty of people out there happily bringing up a family on their boat. Granted, it's not for everyone but I'd suspect that the best person to make that call in this case is the parent. In this, and in Halesowenmum's other thread, there's been a fair amount of insinuation that she doesn't know what she's doing, she is going to jump in without thinking things through and that she doesn't have her childrens' best interests at heart. All this from people who know nothing about her situation.

 

The very fact that she come on here, and is asking these questions indicates to me that she's thinking long and hard about whether this is the right thing for her and her family.

 

Dave

 

I take your point and I probably have gone way off topic. Notwithstanding that, from the information that the OP is initially posting there is evidence to suggest that there may be some things that haven't fully been worked through - and please note that I haven't said they haven't been worked through, it is just the evidence that I believe that I've seen from the posts suggests otherwise to me hence my posts and, possibly, my poor use of English has been the cause of some of the comebacks.

 

There's no malice intended but I have seen a number of boats with families living on them, probably for very good reasons, where the living situation is far from ideal for the kids (and probably wouldn't be tolerated on dry land) - children barely clothed, cruisers no more than twenty foot long with three kids on to name but a few.

 

I'm not suggesting that this will happen with the OP (in fact I'm reasonably certain that it won't) but by passing on our respective knowledge and experience, much of which may be known by the OP but we haven't been told as much, we hope we will prevent her heading in the wrong direction. I can talk to two forum members and get completely opposite views from them both and the same can happen when talking to boaters. As far as I can see the various threads on here are all looking the same way.

 

My posts at least are made with the best intention. I'm not the world's fastest typist (or the most accurate) so I'm not writing these posts for any other reason than to try to help the OP make the right decision. I don't want to know the OPs personal situation, that's her business. I don't necessarily want answers to my questions, I just hope she has asked herself those questions.

 

I shall post no more on this matter (other than to correct typos which I think I have now done).

Edited February 18, 2013 by Ray

[tree]

Ray, as you have said, you are just trying to help and that is one of the bestest things about the boating community, people giving lots of information and advice, but most of all helping other boaters and prospective boaters

[Ange]

Agreed - you've given some well thought out advice Ray and it's clear your intentions are good. It's a shame some of your wording has been misinterpreted - but that's the trouble with the internet as a medium of communication - it lacks so many of the essential ingredients of conversation.

[Arthur Brown]

An issue with modern life is power consumption, and kids are usually very wired and their lifestyle needs electricity. Work out where the power will come from, and how much it will cost. Previous threads on this forum have indicated that electricity produced on board costs drastically more than mains electricity (about 10X was a fair guess) Solar may be free but the cells are not and they will produce your needs in summer but 10% of that in the winter.

[Higgs]

Two years on a visitor mooring? Gosh. You're the one they're moaning about!

 

What a bunch of Janus', they were moaning about you, the other day.!

[MtB]

Time to get a bit of perspective here. If you want and need absolutely 100% security of tenure for yourself and your kids to feel happy then I think your options are limited to buying a house, or buying a residential mooring. Anything less then this involves a small risk of eviction.

 

Having said that, it is rarely in the interest of a landlord (eg CRT, a marina, farmer renting his online space) to evict a paying tenant who is not causing a problem. The right to terminate a tenancy are almost always used to get rid of a 'problem' tenant, whatever that might mean to any landlord in any particular situation. 'Problem tenants' can be for example, those who upset the neighbours, spread mess about on the bank, fail to pay their rent, or otherwise take up management time of the landlord enforcing the terms of the tenancy.

 

This means if you don't make a general nuisance of yourself and draw yourself to the attention of the landlord, they are highly UNlikely to arbitrarily terminate your mooring agreement. It can still happen, but the chances are vanishingly small and you'd have to be incredibly unlucky for it to happen to you in particular.

 

MtB

 

 

Edited to add: Damn, I wrote this to answer the concern expressed in the original post and didn't notice the thread had run on to three pages of squabbling....

Edited February 18, 2013 by Mike the Boilerman

[alan_fincher]

This means if you don't make a general nuisance of yourself and draw yourself to the attention of the landlord, they are highly UNlikely to arbitrarily terminate your mooring agreement. It can still happen, but the chances are vanishingly small and you'd have to be incredibly unlucky for it to happen to you in particular.

Not sure about "vanishingly small".

 

Cow Roast marina got taken over from a private operator by BWML, and the usual story here is that many of the boats that were believed to be "unofficially residential" have been told to move on. (The towpath telegraph differs on "to what extent", but erainly some have lost what they thought was a secure-ish situation).

 

Also what happens if the operator goes bust - I'm thinking of current postings of one that has done just that.

 

Generally I agree with the thrust of what you are saying, but I question "vanishingly small".

[MtB]

Not sure about "vanishingly small".

 

Cow Roast marina got taken over from a private operator by BWML, and the usual story here is that many of the boats that were believed to be "unofficially residential" have been told to move on. (The towpath telegraph differs on "to what extent", but erainly some have lost what they thought was a secure-ish situation).

 

Also what happens if the operator goes bust - I'm thinking of current postings of one that has done just that.

 

Generally I agree with the thrust of what you are saying, but I question "vanishingly small".

 

Yes good point, maybe I should change that to 'extremely small'!

 

So to put some 'finger in the air' figures on it, I'd estimate about 100 unofficial liveaboards have had their moorings terminated through no fault of their own over the last year or so. Would you agree that is a fair estimate? And do we know how many unofficial liveaboards in total? I'd guess perhaps 100,000. What you you reckon Alan?

 

If these figures are right, then the chances of drawing the short straw are one in a thousand in a year. I'd still class that as vanishingly small. Just

 

MtB

[alan_fincher]

And do we know how many unofficial liveaboards in total? I'd guess perhaps 100,000. What you you reckon Alan?

Well there are only about 34,000 private boats on CRT waters, so unless each has an average of three unofficial live-aboards on it, then I can't see where 100,000 would come from!

 

Did you mean to type 10,000, perhaps?