Invisible overstaying charges

[Dovetail]

Could overstayers with a genuine reason, be issued with a "patrol notice" stating C&RT permission has been granted, and with a moving on/review date, to be displayed, as an acknowledgement of the situation.

 

Rather than what is often seen, a hand written note in very faded biro, "engine broke"Bod

 

In my experience its always gearbox broken this way the engine can run but the boat not able to move.

 

Personally I find this them and us thing creeping into boating a sad thing, when I started on this journey it was the all of us, and you knew that the wave and smile was genuine!

We basically have two interpretations of the licence one with home mooring and CC. The CC licence today covers to many personal situations and perhaps can be looked at, some people able to travel the network, others working and able to move within a certain area, people with long term illness, people who founed dealing with life difficult, some people barley surviving but nevertheless self sufficient.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Dovetail

[Bod]

This is something else we have looked at. It would however only be cost effective if it could be done over the internet with an id number, thus allowing the boater to print it off. Not everyone has internet though, or a printer. So it would again revert to a biro on paper perhaps with some sort of id number relating to the reason for overstay.

Patrol Notices, I understand are physically attached to the boat by Patrol Officers.

 

To obtain an "Overstaying permission" note, the boater would have to speak to the officer, who would use a different form to create the note.

 

This would prevent forgeries, printing off your own, could lead to quite a cottage industry in some areas.

 

Bod

 

PS. I accept innocent until proven guilty.

How ever there are times when when showing innocence, can be beneficial.

[jenlyn]

Patrol Notices, I understand are physically attached to the boat by Patrol Officers.

 

To obtain an "Overstaying permission" note, the boater would have to speak to the officer, who would use a different form to create the note.

 

This would prevent forgeries, printing off your own, could lead to quite a cottage industry in some areas.

 

Bod

 

PS. I accept innocent until proven guilty.

How ever there are times when when showing innocence, can be beneficial.

A unique id number could not be forged

[Tuscan]

I think we need to break out the two distinct groups between the guys like Jenkyn and those who attend the meetings who if you like are the guys who recognise the rules but perhaps don't necessarily follow them because by the same token BW haven't enforced them but probably are flexible enough to work towards complying with those who are in the minority I suspect who have little interest in any changes or complying with existing or proposed changes. If your car hasn't got insurance why worry about an MOT. There will always be an unwilling minority it's working with the majority for acceptable change that's important.

[PiRSqwared]

Why would they care what you think? If they have an arrangement with CRT there is no obligation to notify anyone else.

 

Well it might save the NHS a few quid; just think of all the anger induced strokes it could prevent!

[Phoenix_V]

Could overstayers with a genuine reason, be issued with a "patrol notice" stating C&RT permission has been granted, and with a moving on/review date, to be displayed, as an acknowledgement of the situation.

 

Rather than what is often seen, a hand written note in very faded biro, "engine broke"

 

Bod

They do, at least in London

[cotswoldsman]

Could overstayers with a genuine reason, be issued with a "patrol notice" stating C&RT permission has been granted, and with a moving on/review date, to be displayed, as an acknowledgement of the situation.

 

Rather than what is often seen, a hand written note in very faded biro, "engine broke"

 

Bod

 

I just do not understand this reasoning, The Trust would have to issue some sort of document just to satisfy some passing boater who has nothing better to do that think "they are getting something I am not" Not sure if you are aware but The Trust do not even issue a Mooring Licence if you take a Winter Mooring for less than 3 months. Can I maybe suggest that you will enjoy your boating much more if you stop worrying about what other boaters are doing.

[David Schweizer]

I just do not understand this reasoning, The Trust would have to issue some sort of document just to satisfy some passing boater who has nothing better to do that think "they are getting something I am not" Not sure if you are aware but The Trust do not even issue a Mooring Licence if you take a Winter Mooring for less than 3 months. Can I maybe suggest that you will enjoy your boating much more if you stop worrying about what other boaters are doing.

 

I agree, but isn't this another case of BW shooting itself in the foot? It is not so many years since they were actively encouraging boaters to report unlicenced and over staying boats. I know that CRT is not BW, and they may wish to handle things differently, but they also have to handle coping wth the ill thought out BW legacy.

[Chris Pink]

I think you'll find it was the other way round, they set up the licence checking page as a sop to the people ringing up to give their opinion on someone else's business.

[nicknorman]

I think you'll find it was the other way round, they set up the licence checking page as a sop to the people ringing up to give their opinion on someone else's business.

Presumably then if you saw someone beating someone up, a theft taking place, knew someone claiming a state benefit they were not entitled to etc, you would consider it their business and not take any action? Or are you selective in these matters?

Edited January 11, 2013 by nicknorman

[Chris Pink]

Yes, very. Aren't you?

 

Or are you perhaps on some kind of curtain twitchers list at your local council after reporting Ethel next door for putting plastic in the glass recycling (again!)

 

You aren't perchance the person who reported my mum for having a non-compliant front door?

 

Interesting the way people *like you* conflate overstaying with 'beating someone up'. Revealing, no?

[alan_fincher]

I agree, but isn't this another case of BW shooting itself in the foot? It is not so many years since they were actively encouraging boaters to report unlicenced and over staying boats. I know that CRT is not BW, and they may wish to handle things differently, but they also have to handle coping wth the ill thought out BW legacy.

 

I think you'll find it was the other way round, they set up the licence checking page as a sop to the people ringing up to give their opinion on someone else's business.

 

This anomaly still survives, unfortunately.....

 

There is still an online boat checker page, now transferred to the new CRT web-site, although the underlying functionality is surprisingly now on a British Waterways page here.

 

The survival of this checker is at total variance with what Denise Yelland (head of enforcement at CRT) said in passing at the recent boaters meeting at Milton Keynes. She said displaying of permits was no longer in any way necessary for their processes, provided the boat index number is displayed, and she would dearly like to get away from issuing any kind of paper licence, and rely solely on the electronic systems that tell them all they need to know about a boat and its home mooring.

 

It wasn't an appropriate time to interrupt the meeting further to challenge the obvious inconsistency in what she said, versus the survival of the online checker, (it would have diverted an important discussion that was in full flow), but I might now just ask the question anyway!

[cotswoldsman]

I agree, but isn't this another case of BW shooting itself in the foot? It is not so many years since they were actively encouraging boaters to report unlicenced and over staying boats. I know that CRT is not BW, and they may wish to handle things differently, but they also have to handle coping wth the ill thought out BW legacy.

I certainly remember the curtain twitching licence one but do not remember overstaying, surely in order to report someone overstaying I would have to stop and watch for 14 days as I would have to assume they arrived the same day I did.

 

Presumably then if you saw someone beating someone up, a theft taking place, knew someone claiming a state benefit they were not entitled to etc, you would consider it their business and not take any action? Or are you selective in these matters?

 

Nothing like comparing like with like. So you are comparing someone overstaying with beating someone up and theft? As for benefits how would I know they were not entitled to benefits? The same as how would I know if someone was overstaying? Luckily I have a life and better things to do than worry about how long someone has been moored.

[Chris Pink]

It does lead to one of those modern day dilemmas; you see two people kicking a third on the ground at the same time that you notice a boat spending a 3rd day on a 48 hour mooring.

 

What do you do first?

 

A. Ring the police and report the violence

B. ring CRT and report the boat

C. Walk on by

[matty40s]

Hawkesbury Junction is one area where the enforcement officers have done a LOT of work in the last 9 months. I have passed through it about 15 times in the last 12 months, and in the last three months, it has cleared out remarkably.

At this weekends passage, there was a single boat on the North Oxford VM and only 3 on the Coventry VM. Two of which have winter moorings. further out, there were quite a few boats, as usual, however, these are off the visitor moorings.

 

The notices at Hawkesbury now say 7 days only, or a £25 per day charge for "extended stops".

However, the Patrol Notices being issued, state it is a £25 per day "overstay levy"

Also, the old trick of 7 days on the Coventry and then through the lock and 7 days on the North Oxford no longer works - Hawkesbury is classed as one "place".

[jenlyn]

It does lead to one of those modern day dilemmas; you see two people kicking a third on the ground at the same time that you notice a boat spending a 3rd day on a 48 hour mooring.

 

What do you do first?

 

A. Ring the police and report the violence

B. ring CRT and report the boat

C. Walk on by

I would check first to see if it was two overstayers kicking shite out of another boater for reporting them for overstaying.

[cotswoldsman]

It does lead to one of those modern day dilemmas; you see two people kicking a third on the ground at the same time that you notice a boat spending a 3rd day on a 48 hour mooring.

 

What do you do first?

 

A. Ring the police and report the violence

B. ring CRT and report the boat

C. Walk on by

 

If the boat was also not displaying a licence then it would be easy to chose what to do as the chances are the person being kicked will survive, come on now we must get our priorities right. Anyway the person getting kicked might well be claiming benefits he is not entitled to so deserves a good kicking.

[matty40s]

It does lead to one of those modern day dilemmas; you see two people kicking a third on the ground at the same time that you notice a boat spending a 3rd day on a 48 hour mooring.

 

What do you do first?

 

A. Ring the police and report the violence

B. ring CRT and report the boat

C. Walk on by

you forgot D

Ask them how long the Elsan has been blocked.

[nicknorman]

Although the thread is about overstaying, the discussion had moved on to the licence checker and that was what I had in mind in my comments. Licence evasion is not as serious as physical assault, but that does not mean it should be ignored. Probably the people who watched Jimmy Savile sticking his tounge down the throats of 500 school girls didn't think it was that serious, although they must have realised it was wrong.

 

Anyway, license evaders do impact me because they reduce the amount of revenue available to maintain the system. Overstayers do impact me - for example (our marina being fairly close to Fradley Jn) last summer we often struggled or didn't find anywhere to moor at the visitor moorings because they were full. A few boats there were notable by always being there in the same place and so the chances are they never moved for the entire summer.

 

Like so many such things, if a few people do it, perhaps it doesn't matter too much. But if you allow it, the rate creeps up until it is a big problem (which according to rumour is the case at the W K&A).

 

The noisy minority on this forum who don't care about such things are "like that" I suspect because they use the canal not as it was intended (for transport) but for cheap housing, and don't want to move around. They have claimed their patch and are happy with it.

 

They should however remember that the silent and vast majority of boaters keep their boats in a marina and don't see why the freeloaders should abuse the system by parking their boat in a nice place, without a licence, for the duration (note that I have nothing against genuine CCers).

 

So whether the former group like it or not, the latter will continue to object to the abusers, and of course vastly outnumber the former group.

 

Chris, you have already told me that you are a wannabe anarchist, so you are in the "no hope" category but fortunately most of the rest of us realise that an anarchistic society is not compatible with civilised infrastructure such as a canal system.

Edited January 11, 2013 by nicknorman

[mayalld]

Btw, I'm not a big overstayer at all; but it does happen from time to time.

 

"It does happen from time to time"

 

How does it "happen"?

 

To the best of my knowledge I have NEVER overstayed other than when a genuine unforseen circumstance cropped up (in one case an emergency stoppage, in another a failed drive plate).

 

Your "it does happen" seems to indicate that you regard the limits as a guideline rather than as a limit, and that it is no big deal to overstay if it might be mildly inconvenient to move on.

 

Perhaps a £25 overstaying charge is exactly what you need.

[carlt]

Could overstayers with a genuine reason, be issued with a "patrol notice" stating C&RT permission has been granted, and with a moving on/review date, to be displayed, as an acknowledgement of the situation.

 

Bod

Perhaps they could be issued with a "patrol notice" saying "None of your bleeding business!"

[alan_fincher]

It does lead to one of those modern day dilemmas; you see two people kicking a third on the ground at the same time that you notice a boat spending a 3rd day on a 48 hour mooring.

 

What do you do first?

 

A. Ring the police and report the violence

B. ring CRT and report the boat

C. Walk on by

More information needed.

 

For example are any of the three people, (the two kickers or the one on the ground), CRT enforcement officers?

[Chris Pink]

And pray, does Rumour have this at first hand or were they they told by Salacious?

Edited January 11, 2013 by Chris Pink

[cotswoldsman]

 

 

The noisy minority on this forum who don't care about such things are "like that" I suspect because they use the canal not as it was intended (for transport) but for cheap housing, and don't want to move around. They have claimed their patch and are happy with it.

 

They should however remember that the silent and vast majority of boaters keep their boats in a marina and don't see why the freeloaders should abuse the system by parking their boat in a nice place, without a licence, for the duration (note that I have nothing against genuine CCers).

 

 

 

I love my patch and being a freeloader gives me immense satisfaction. If we could just find a way of stopping these boaters coming out of their marinas and hogging all the Visitor Moorings.

[Chris Pink]

"It does happen from time to time"

 

How does it "happen"?

 

To the best of my knowledge I have NEVER overstayed other than when a genuine unforseen circumstance cropped up (in one case an emergency stoppage, in another a failed drive plate).

 

Your "it does happen" seems to indicate that you regard the limits as a guideline rather than as a limit, and that it is no big deal to overstay if it might be mildly inconvenient to move on.

 

Perhaps a £25 overstaying charge is exactly what you need.

 

NEVER in big shouty capitals, followed by two examples which equate to 'time to time'.

 

Rank hypocrisy