FMC Butties

[Tim Lewis]

At the London Canal Museum we have recently been some pictures taken in London at turn of the (last) century, we know that they were taken before 1907.

 

Not being an expert on historic craft I looked up the fleet numbers and they do not correspond with what I can find on line. The two boats in this picture are 252 Langley and 255 Marsworth:

 

 

Can anyone enlighten us about their history?

 

Tim

[koukouvagia]

This picture is much clearer on the HNBC site where you've also posted it.

I reckon that the fleet numbers and the BCN numbers are exactly as listed in Alan Faulkner's list.

Langley 232, 16588 and Marsworth 233, 16589.

 

Also Faulkner has a picture of Marsworth and Langley at Foxton with the caption that "they are believed to have been the first loaded boats to use the inclined plane which was opened at Foxton on 11 July 1900."

 

 

I've no doubt the real experts will be along soon!

 

Great picture. Thanks for posting. Any idea of the location?

Edited December 19, 2012 by koukouvagia

[Derek R.]

Camden Town, just above Hampstead Rd. locks. Railway buildings behind, towpath bridge above.

[alan_fincher]

Camden Town, just above Hampstead Rd. locks. Railway buildings behind, towpath bridge above.

Yes,

 

I agree with that.

 

EDIT: Removed erroneous comment!

Edited December 20, 2012 by alan_fincher

[Pluto]

At the London Canal Museum we have recently been some pictures taken in London at turn of the (last) century, we know that they were taken before 1907.

 

Not being an expert on historic craft I looked up the fleet numbers and they do not correspond with what I can find on line. The two boats in this picture are 252 Langley and 255 Marsworth:

 

 

Can anyone enlighten us about their history?

 

Tim

B****r the narrow boats, what's the real boat behind them?

[GUMPY]

B****r the narrow boats, what's the real boat behind them?

That was the first boat I saw in the picture , cant answer the question though

[David Mack]

Camden Town, just above Hampstead Rd. locks. Railway buildings behind, towpath bridge above.

 

Its certainly Camden Town, above Hampstead Road Lock, but I don't think those are railway buildings. To me this is a view looking west, probably taken from the island between the two locks. If this view was looking east the boats would be blocking access to the northern lock, which is close to the bridge:

 

 

More likely the boats are moored in the setback south west of the bridge on the right hand side in this picture:

 

 

As the railway is to the north of the canal here, I don't think the buildings on the south side have any railway connection.

[alan_fincher]

I can't easily find other pictures anything like as old.

 

This is much more recent, but unfortunately date is given as a wide 1955 - 1969 range.

 

 

However, although I think it must be that side of the canal, I can't quite work out why in this picture the seems to be canal width for three 14 foot barges without obstructing the bridge or lock, but in the picture of the butties, there seems to only be one barge moored behind. I suppose it is possible that there is a further barge behind that one that is obscured?

 

EDIT:

 

Actually I'm not at all convinced they are full with barges in that picture now.....

Edited December 20, 2012 by alan_fincher

[Derek R.]

Yes, I need to do an about face - it's the buildings opposite where the boats are moored that used to belong to the London and North Western Railway. The Large building that spans a subterranean basin (Dead Dog Basin) was part of the railway interchange yard. The rear of this building is accessed by road from the end of Oval Road, and to this day, or I should say correctly - when I last delivered there in 2002, the main structure along with the old sets and rail tracks were still extant, though the entire building was given over to modern offices and conference suites. The buildings surrounding what is now known as Camden Lock were largely workshops and storage. Part of the complex included a horse hospital which had underground passages connecting various parts. A great many horses were used in Railway haulage and many of their needs were served here. A little further North along Chalk Farm Road is the 'Roundhouse'. Only used for locomotives for a short time due to complications of access, it latterly became a theatre.

 

Log onto this site and scroll down past the artists impression of City Road Basin, and some nice shots of the buildings appear.

 

On the other side, where the boats are tied, was a dock, on the left of which was the North Western Stone wharf. Somewhere in this box of chips I might discover its name etc.

 

Here's an old map: 1875.

 

There's a contemporary page on the Horse tunnels HERE, and a great deal of information about the stable. It's all a bit garish, though better than demolished, but I'm blessed if I can find the names of the basins opposite, or who inhabited them. Will have to leave that to someone else.

 

Addendum:

 

Having scratched around, found these:

Purfleet Wharf (next to Dingwall's)

WWII map showing South side docks gone, and Borough Council on the site opposite Dingwall's. (You will have to play around with the map controls a bit).

 

More: docks and wharves, but still no names!

 

Here we are. Map with wharf and dock names 1837. The two narrow boats and wide boat are tied against the North Western Stone wharf and basin, Stable blocks were positioned behind the buildings immediately behind the boats, and can be seen on the plan.

 

This area fascinates me personally, as I was frequently taken to see my older sister and her family who lived in Fitzroy Road, a stones throw from the railway yards, buildings and canal. Of the canal I knew nothing. It was always hidden from street level view behind high walls - a hidden world. Only from the top deck of a 629 Trolleybus could on catch a glimpse of water as the bus crossed the canal by the Aerated Bread Company (replaced with a horrendous Sainsbury's building). Where the water went and came from, I knew nothing, other than another section that passed through the Zoo, which was as a child, foremost in my mind as any visit to my Sister meant getting into the Zoo free of charge as Dad worked there (as did my Sister and her husband). How those fragmented glimpses of water were connected, I had no idea. Until the day we went on Jason's Trip - and for the first time saw Dead Dog Basin!

 

Apologies for the digression from subject, and thanks to Tim and Alan for posting those lovely B&W shots.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Derek R.

[Tim Lewis]

Yes, I need to do an about face - it's the buildings opposite where the boats are moored that used to belong to the London and North Western Railway. The Large building that spans a subterranean basin (Dead Dog Basin) was part of the railway interchange yard. The rear of this building is accessed by road from the end of Oval Road, and to this day, or I should say correctly - when I last delivered there in 2002, the main structure along with the old sets and rail tracks were still extant, though the entire building was given over to modern offices and conference suites. The buildings surrounding what is now known as Camden Lock were largely workshops and storage. Part of the complex included a horse hospital which had underground passages connecting various parts. A great many horses were used in Railway haulage and many of their needs were served here. A little further North along Chalk Farm Road is the 'Roundhouse'. Only used for locomotives for a short time due to complications of access, it latterly became a theatre.

 

<Snip>

.

 

As Camden seems to be of interest here's another of our recent acquired pictures of barge traffic under Oval Road, doesn't look right without the Pirate Castle there!

 

 

Tim

Edited December 22, 2012 by Tim Lewis

[Derek R.]

Lovely shot, thanks for posting. My Sister would like to see that. One of W. & A. Gilbey's buildings on the right.

 

Nice advert for KODAK on the railway wagon. Stairs similar to those up the side of the LMS railway building were still in use in the late nineties. Jim Henson had his 'Creature shop' up top and the stairs were the main access. That's all changed now.

 

Example of a horse ramp on the left. Quite a few along the Regent's.

Edited December 23, 2012 by Derek R.

[antarmike]

I can't easily find other pictures anything like as old.

 

This is much more recent, but unfortunately date is given as a wide 1955 - 1969 range.

 

 

However, although I think it must be that side of the canal, I can't quite work out why in this picture the seems to be canal width for three 14 foot barges without obstructing the bridge or lock, but in the picture of the butties, there seems to only be one barge moored behind. I suppose it is possible that there is a further barge behind that one that is obscured?

 

EDIT:

 

Actually I'm not at all convinced they are full with barges in that picture now.....

Look like dredging boats to me, a lot of those were between 10 and 12 foot wide, are we sure these are 14 footers?

[Pluto]

As Camden seems to be of interest here's another of our recent acquired pictures of barge traffic under Oval Road, doesn't look right without the Pirate Castle there!

 

 

Tim

This image does show a typical southern square stern which were more designed to increase cabin space than cargo capacity. Those found on canal craft in the north west, where the square stern did add around five tons to the cargo, had square sterns which were built upwards from the keel, rather than from halfway up the stern post as here.

[Tim Lewis]

At the London Canal Museum we have recently been some pictures taken in London at turn of the (last) century, we know that they were taken before 1907.

 

Not being an expert on historic craft I looked up the fleet numbers and they do not correspond with what I can find on line. The two boats in this picture are 252 Langley and 255 Marsworth:

 

 

 

Can anyone enlighten us about their history?

 

Tim

 

OK Here's another one, the picture is of 'Avon' but shows a fleet number of 50 whereas Alan Faulkners books shows it as 51 - am I missing something?

 

 

Tim

[Chris Pink]

Yes, you're missing the fact that people make mistakes.

 

Nice picture.

 

Very shallow depth of field for that era of photography.

[Derek R.]

Where do you find them Tim! I know nothing of the boat, but is the location known?

If not, I would hazard a guess at Old Ford Road crossing above with Duckett's Cut off to the left beyond. Both bridges are different now, and there's no railway as seen beyond. Wide boats too, and maybe a chicken hutch on the cabin top? Or a small dog kennel. Cheeky pair of eyes peeking from just behind!

[AMModels]

I would say that the photo is right and the book/websites are wrong, I would suggest that AVON is the forerunner of AIRE (50) while the two ANKER's are the true 51's in the fleet.

 

Beautiful image tho, Im loving all of them; will they at some point be available online for perusal or locked away behind a paywall/inside some repository? (The question isnt meant as combative as it sounds)

 

Edited December 23, 2012 by AMModels

[pete harrison]

OK Here's another one, the picture is of 'Avon' but shows a fleet number of 50 whereas Alan Faulkners books shows it as 51 - am I missing something?

 

Tim

As Mr Pink has stated people do make mistakes, but unusually in this case it was the painter. All F.M.C. Ltd. records show AVON to be fleet numbered as 51, and the second of their fleet to carry that fleet number. AVON 51 was acquired in 1902 and disposed of in 1917 and for all but the last three years (1914 - 1917) the fleet number 50 was in continuous use on another boat.

 

Out of interest which Alan Faulkner books are you referring to ? As far as I am aware F.M.C. Ltd. horse boat and butty fleet numbers appear in very few publications, the most comprehensive possibly appearing in NarrowBoat magazine Spring 2007 and Summer 2007 editions - although these only include boats joining the fleet from 1900 onwards. The lists published in NarrowBoat magazine were based on a combination of records held by both Mr Faulkner and myself.

[Laurence Hogg]

OK Here's another one, the picture is of 'Avon' but shows a fleet number of 50 whereas Alan Faulkners books shows it as 51 - am I missing something?

 

 

Tim

 

Irrespective of the era, the boat number being "wrong" and a location not confirmed, that is a cracking shot. Its shows to my eyes a unique FMC livery, I have never seen the stern so highly decorated and departing from the normal two dark colours with maybe a dividing piece of lining. Is this the work of possibly Bushell Brothers in this case? it seems their style.

[pete harrison]

Irrespective of the era, the boat number being "wrong" and a location not confirmed, that is a cracking shot. Its shows to my eyes a unique FMC livery, I have never seen the stern so highly decorated and departing from the normal two dark colours with maybe a dividing piece of lining. Is this the work of possibly Bushell Brothers in this case? it seems their style.

AVON was acquired from John Walley, Stoke on Trent and I suspect this unusual F.M.C. Ltd. livery is an adaption of the previous owners, complete with its incorrect fleet number.

 

I would say that the photo is right and the book/websites are wrong, I would suggest that AVON is the forerunner of AIRE (50) while the two ANKER's are the true 51's in the fleet.

The photo is definately wrong. F.M.C. Ltd. records are clear in this. Fleet number 50 was allocated twice - first to LEO (1889 to 1914) then to AIRE (1917 onwards). Fleet number 51 was allocated three times - first to TRING (1889 to circa 1902) then to AVON (1902 to 1917) then to ANKER (1917 onwards).

 

F.M.C. Ltd. did not ever re-allocate a boat name and fleet number together on any second or third generation boat. The other ANKER which was in the F.M.C. Ltd. fleet from 1889 to 1903 originated from William Clayton and was the first to carry the fleet number 140.

 

This information is not subject to copyright and is free to anybody who has an interest.

Edited December 23, 2012 by pete harrison

[koukouvagia]

These are amazing pictures. I'm fascinated by the small details of decoration that I haven't seen elsewhere, e.g.: the double lining round the patterns on the back bulkhead and on the rudder stock and the little decoration in the bottom right hand corner of the "mouse's ear".Most interesting of all is the roundel surrounding the fleet number. Can anyone make out whether it says "Registered at Uxbridge"? Are these features characteristic on any particular yard or painter?

 

Thanks for posting. By the way, I don't suppose you've come across any pictures of "Hampton". Our butty seems never to have been photographed in its working days!

Edited December 23, 2012 by koukouvagia

[pete harrison]

These are amazing pictures. I'm fascinated by the small details of decoration that I haven't seen elsewhere, e.g.: the double lining round the patterns on the back bulkhead and on the rudder stock and the little decoration in the bottom right hand corner of the "mouse's ear".Most interesting of all is the roundel surrounding the fleet number. Can anyone make out whether it says "Registered at Uxbridge"? Are these features characteristic on any particular yard or painter?

Registered at Uxbridge 338 (30 September 1902).

[AMModels]

AVON was acquired from John Walley, Stoke on Trent and I suspect this unusual F.M.C. Ltd. livery is an adaption of the previous owners, complete with its incorrect fleet number.

 

 

The photo is definately wrong. F.M.C. Ltd. records are clear in this. Fleet number 50 was allocated twice - first to LEO (1889 to 1914) then to AIRE (1917 onwards). Fleet number 51 was allocated three times - first to TRING (1889 to circa 1902) then to AVON (1902 to 1917) then to ANKER (1917 onwards).

 

F.M.C. Ltd. did not ever re-allocate a boat name and fleet number together on any second or third generation boat. The other ANKER which was in the F.M.C. Ltd. fleet from 1889 to 1903 originated from William Clayton and was the first to carry the fleet number 140.

 

This information is not subject to copyright and is free to anybody who has an interest.

 

Sorry to be pedantic, but the picture isnt wrong; the painter got it wrong and ergo the picture highlights the painters error but the picture (in this case) never lies.

 

Thanks for clarifying the sequence of events regarding these boats, interesting to see that the GUCC painters werent the only ones with 'dicky' brush strokes.

 

As you pointed out the similarities between the previous livery and the 'new' FMC one is clear, when youve pointed it out to us anyway,

be interesting to know if this was a pattern with second hand boats or if it all depended on where the boat was docked.

 

 

[pete harrison]

Sorry to be pedantic, but the picture isnt wrong; the painter got it wrong and ergo the picture highlights the painters error but the picture (in this case) never lies.

To clarify, yes the picture is correct as it depicts AVON as it was on that day (providing it has not been 'photoshopped') and it is the fleet number painted onto the cabinside that is incorrect.

[Ray T]

 

Tremendous picture. What is the little "shed like" structure where the cabin block usually sits?