Jam 'Ole run

[jake_crew]

Has anyone got an itinerary ?

[mykaskin]

Has anyone got an itinerary ?

 

Guess it will be same as every year - rather than type it all out again, have a quick search for a topic two years ago.

 

Mike

[Nightwatch]

What do you mean? Go as fast as possible and ignore others waiting at locks.

 

 

[alan_fincher]

What do you mean? Go as fast as possible and ignore others waiting at locks.

 

 

Not based on my experiences of observing the last couple, when most of the owners involved have boated with exemplary skills that could put many of us to shame.

 

This has recently attracted only privately owned boats, who don't tend to act in the irresponsible manner you are suggesting.

 

Unfortunately at least one of the "trust owned" pairs seem to boat more in the manner you allude to, which, in my very strong view, they simply should not.

 

EDIT: It has been correctly pointed out to me that my reference to "trust boats" might immediately make people think I'm referring to the Narrow Boat Trust operated pair. I will therefore clarify that whilst I have had issues with one NBT crew in the past, this matter was dealt with by their committee in a manner I was happy with, and I have not witnessed anything from them since that I'm unhappy with. Unfortunately I (and several other forum members) have had recent experiences of one of the other "Friends" type pairs, and personally I think I have seen things that do private working boat owners no favours. So apologies to NBT if my meaning here was misconstrued.

 

(ORIGINAL POST RESUMES) As a working boat owner, I'm frankly a bit pissed off by getting tarred by the actions of what I perceive to be a small minority.

 

It is a bit like being a very experienced hire-boater, when people just assume because it is a hire boat you will be clueless.

 

[Rant ends!....]

Edited September 6, 2012 by alan_fincher

[Nightwatch]

Alan. You are welcome to your 'Rant'

 

My post was a somewhat 'tongue in cheek' post.

 

However I have personally experienced bullish behaviour from people in a hurry on old working boats. (Trust? Not sure.) I am not for one minute suggesting that all the enviable owners of 'working' boats should be tarred with the same blacking brush.

 

A bit like the chap in the car behind flashing his headlights to get past, I carry on at legal speeds and get in the way do my own thing.

 

I'm sure the participants enjoy the experience, truly..

 

 

Martyn

[alan_fincher]

Actually some recent Jam Hole events have produced boatmanship of the highest standards.

 

I shadowed Julia Cook on "Towcester" and David Lowe on "Swallow" on one a couple of years back, and you can learn an awful lot about how to make best possible progress, and still upset nobody, from experienced hands like these.

 

Watching Julia when she is single handing "Towcester" well loaded, sometimes, one can marvel at how little she relies on power, and how much on near perfect positioning and timing.

 

(I don't come close!....)

Edited September 6, 2012 by alan_fincher

[Nightwatch]

For my sins, I have been watching, again, Waterworld from way back in 2000. Gladly they show clips from days gone by when working boats were handled superbly. There was even a shot of closing a top gate using rope. the boatman stayed on the boat for the task.

 

i mention this as it is subject matter in another thread.

 

Alan, I was not slagging off the Jam 'ole Run and it's participants. Great episodes in our waterways history need to be remembered.

 

I used to serve with an Officer who was well into war re-enactments. One day he turned up in the Wardroom in all his regalia, as nice as he looked, I can't to this day understand why he wanted to pretend to be a roundhead or whatever he was. He was in his element.

 

I love boats and boating and all that goes with it. The above snippet applies to people who 'go the whole hog' in dressing up in traditional style and tend to actually believe they are 'in the past'.

 

George, our Staffie sometimes wears his neckerchief, but that's so he doesn't get cold.

 

Martyn

[David Mack]

[Rant ends!....]

 

Sounds like you need one of these:

 

[LEO]

 

 

(ORIGINAL POST RESUMES) As a working boat owner, I'm frankly a bit pissed off by getting tarred by the actions of what I perceive to be a small minority.

 

[Rant ends!....]

 

Alan,

 

Shouldn't that be EX working boat owner......... or rather owner of a former working boat....

 

ATB.

 

Mike.

Edited September 7, 2012 by LEO

[alan_fincher]

Alan,

 

Shouldn't that be EX working boat owner......... or rather owner of a former working boat....

 

ATB.

 

Mike.

It worked last time I tried it.......

 

(But point taken!....)

 

Actually it has had proper "work" more recently than many, having still been in very active service on the BW maintenance fleet locally until just 12 years ago.

[LEO]

It worked last time I tried it.......

 

(But point taken!....)

 

Actually it has had proper "work" more recently than many, having still been in very active service on the BW maintenance fleet locally until just 12 years ago.

 

And Alan you and Cath will never be taken for working boat people - those brown overalls are just too clean..

 

Blog good, you had a great trip.

 

Mike.

[cheshire~rose]

We have had several discussions over the last couple of weeks on whether such boats should be called "working boats" or "historic boats" as we took Python from Alvecote to Shackerstone and then on to The Erewash.

I was almost ready to concede that Python should be referred to as a historic boat but then thought again because while she no longer has to carry heavy loads around the country or, as in her second life, move BW maintenance crew, their plant, tools and suppies around the system, she does move around the system attending festivals to publicise and fundraise for The Chesterfield Canal Trust and while doing so also offers (basic) accomodation to the volunteers. She has a business licence and so therefore I feel she is still a "working boat" It is just her job title that has changed.

 

Maybe The Trust ought to consider adding the Jam 'ole run to Python's itiniary another year. I think it could be lovely to be involved.

 

I have to say that I do understand Alan's frustration at being tarred with that brush -the one that says if you are operating an ex working boat then you will act as if you own the cut! If the boat you are operating belongs to you then, while extremely frustrating you can brush it off and put it down to experience. When operating a boat as a volunteer there is a huge responsibility to ensure that the way you handle that boat is not percieved to be bad as it reflects very badly on the the trust that own the boat. It is also true that if a trust boat has been seen to be handled badly in the past then people assume the next crew will handle it in the same way (Or vice versa)

I do not know any of the details of the trust boat that has been metioned here or the crew but I do hope that people do not automatically expect the same behaviour when they see that boat in future as it is possible it has a different crew.

[twbm]

I'm not here to defend anyone, and I wasn't at Alvecote so know nothing of what went on, however:

 

Speaking as an absolute two-weeks-a-year-if-I'm-lucky-amateur-'pair-boater' I can say I am a bit more reluctant to give up bridge holes when I know for sure it means that the fairly heavy even when empty unpowered boat behind me is going to run into me within seconds, damaging paint and knocking me of course even more than the blast of reverse I've had to apply to stop or slow the motor. The effect is lesss dramatic on cross straps which theoretically means the butty bow is almost immediately sitting on the tipcat and being slowed sort of gracefully, but on a long line with a loaded boat options are often limited to putting the butty firmly aground or deciding what to hit. It's also not unusual for boaters who have let us have the bridge to set off in between the motor and butty when on using a long line.

 

It's occurred to me that when there's a butty on the back we might display a yellow board or something but as no one would know what that meant except us, I can't see it being much use. We could put a sign saying 'Two Boats' but that would be misinterpreted as a pub advert.

 

I'd be pleased to hear from the many more experienced people on the forum as to what is to be done when its definately the 'other' boats bridge, albeit they have time to give way, but you're working a pair.

 

Cheshire Rose: Agreed. It's also worth noting that any given crew may well be a varying mix of old and new hands, some of whom have boated together before and can communicate with a nod a wink, and others who will do somewhat unhelpful things with the very best of intentions.

[alan_fincher]

Trevor,

 

The incident I witnessed at Alvecote relating a boat operated by a "friends of" group, involved the single unloaded motor forging its way through a bridge narrowing that (in my view) another ex-working boat coming the other way already had far more claim to.

 

The other boat's owner was forced to reverse very heavily, whereas the motor coming towards them seemed to take little steps to slow, or even steer away from them.

 

There was no butty in tow at the the time, they had left that behind, and no other boats but the two in question to consider, when deciding how to handle the narrowing.

 

No harm was done, but in my view anybody in charge of 70 foot (plus) of working boat needs if anything to be more cautious than the "average boater", rather than just adopt an "I'm coming through" attitude. This particularly applies (IMO) if you are just "playing" in a parade of boats, on a canal that other boat owners still wish to pass through without feeling intimidated.

 

I agree is a boat is towing a butty the considerations become more complex. However, again, one does wonder about the wisdom of what some "heritage" group crews get up to, when, for example, you see pictures of a butty being towed on a short line, when there is apparently no obvious reason why it could not have been on "straps". Again, I stress, I'm not making reference to NBT, but just taking the "this is all terribly difficult, so you need to get out of the way" line does none of us any favours, in my view.

 

But I think in your heart of hearts you probably know any of us can get it wrong on occasions, and when a "friends of" or "trust" crew cocks up, it is probably more likely to get commented on - perhaps unfair, but, I suspect, true!

[Derek R.]

If you make a mistake, the World and it's wife will know in minutes. Moreover, if you meet someone many years later, you will encounter stories of the incident that bear no relationship at all to what happened - through Chinese Whispers.

 

We had a big Dutchman, and locking through a Thames lock one day were joined by a Bells and Whistles Gin palace who made a cock up of making fast, such that a cleat was damaged under stress due to lack of observance by crew. This was without any interference from us or our vessel - we were observers.

 

Years later I met someone on the cut who related a story of our passage through that lock and we had become the third party who caused the cleat to be ripped right out of the other vessel.

 

However, boat perfectly and without incident, few notice, few comment, but you'll still get flack.

[Blaker]

I'm not here to defend anyone, and I wasn't at Alvecote so know nothing of what went on, however:

 

Speaking as an absolute two-weeks-a-year-if-I'm-lucky-amateur-'pair-boater' I can say I am a bit more reluctant to give up bridge holes when I know for sure it means that the fairly heavy even when empty unpowered boat behind me is going to run into me within seconds, damaging paint and knocking me of course even more than the blast of reverse I've had to apply to stop or slow the motor. The effect is lesss dramatic on cross straps which theoretically means the butty bow is almost immediately sitting on the tipcat and being slowed sort of gracefully, but on a long line with a loaded boat options are often limited to putting the butty firmly aground or deciding what to hit. It's also not unusual for boaters who have let us have the bridge to set off in between the motor and butty when on using a long line.

 

It's occurred to me that when there's a butty on the back we might display a yellow board or something but as no one would know what that meant except us, I can't see it being much use. We could put a sign saying 'Two Boats' but that would be misinterpreted as a pub advert.

 

I'd be pleased to hear from the many more experienced people on the forum as to what is to be done when its definately the 'other' boats bridge, albeit they have time to give way, but you're working a pair.

 

Cheshire Rose: Agreed. It's also worth noting that any given crew may well be a varying mix of old and new hands, some of whom have boated together before and can communicate with a nod a wink, and others who will do somewhat unhelpful things with the very best of intentions.

 

BW (C&RT?) Byelaw 17

 

a) a vessel which is not towing another vessel shall give way to a vessel which is towing another vessel or vessels

 

vessels which are unladen shall give way to vessels which are laden

 

This byelaw is in place for the reasons you have highlighted. Trouble is not many boaters know this byelaw, or perhaps don't wish to know. Realistically I doubt many hire boaters have read these byelaws or even know they exist.

 

(Don't know how the yellow face got there, can't get rid of it)

Edited September 7, 2012 by Blaker

[FadeToScarlet]

For my sins, I have been watching, again, Waterworld from way back in 2000. Gladly they show clips from days gone by when working boats were handled superbly. There was even a shot of closing a top gate using rope. the boatman stayed on the boat for the task.

 

i mention this as it is subject matter in another thread.

 

Alan, I was not slagging off the Jam 'ole Run and it's participants. Great episodes in our waterways history need to be remembered.

 

I used to serve with an Officer who was well into war re-enactments. One day he turned up in the Wardroom in all his regalia, as nice as he looked, I can't to this day understand why he wanted to pretend to be a roundhead or whatever he was. He was in his element.

 

I love boats and boating and all that goes with it. The above snippet applies to people who 'go the whole hog' in dressing up in traditional style and tend to actually believe they are 'in the past'.

 

George, our Staffie sometimes wears his neckerchief, but that's so he doesn't get cold.

 

Martyn

 

From looking at photos of previous years, I don't think the participants do much dressing up. I could be wrong, though.

 

I think the biggest point of runs like this is to preserve skills and attitudes, which are as important an aspect of history as the boats themselves. Skills like pair boating, using snatchers and snubbers, strapping in, holding back lines, gatelining, etc. are as worthy of preservation and practice and dissemination as, say, a grained back cabin with roses, or well-scrubbed ash strips and white cotton rope.

 

In your example above, your colleague probably felt it was important to know pike drill or how to load and fire a matchlock- such skills being as important as the dressing up.

 

A good analogy is preserving the skills to work Tornado flat out down the main line, in addition to shiny polished engines preserved in aspic at the National Railway Museum.

 

I suspect also that it serves as a good reminder of how bloody hard actually working boats could be. It's very easy to be sucked into the wild flowers on the cabin top, cosy back cabin, polished brass idealistic view of the past, forgetting about 16 hour days, slippery lock beams in the wet, and getting soaked to the skin, just to "get 'em ahead".

 

I think it's important to recreate and show what the boats did, in addition to the boats just being preserved.

[alan_fincher]

BW (C&RT?) Byelaw 17

 

a) a vessel which is not towing another vessel shall give way to a vessel which is towing another vessel or vessels

 

vessels which are unladen shall give way to vessels which are laden

 

This byelaw is in place for the reasons you have highlighted. Trouble is not many boaters know this byelaw, or perhaps don't wish to know. Realistically I doubt many hire boaters have read these byelaws or even know they exist.

Many boaters, (both owner boaters and hirers), probably pass a motor/butty combination rarely enough that they do not even always spot that what is coming towards them is two boats.

 

Stories of what happens when boaters think they can nip past one and into the "gap" between the two would seem to amplify that point!

 

The crew in charge of a pair (loaded and unloaded) should, in my view, possess some of the skills necessary to deal with situations that the less experienced may throw at them, (is a "day boater" really going to have been instructed what they should do if they pass a fully loaded set of coal boats at a bridge ? - I hardly think so!).

 

Unfortunately some working boat enthusiasts, (fortunately a very small minority), don't seem to even need the additional argument that it is "a pair" to justify a boating style that often says "I think I have priorty, whatever!".

 

On the other hand, most are highly responsible, even if (like me), sometimes lacking the experience to get it fully right 100% of the time. But all of those of us who love our ex working boats in my view need to constantly try to second guess what those who know little of their operation may do next. Just because a bye-law exists, it doesn't mean we should use it without exemption to say "I've got a pair - therefore my right of way".

 

(Interesting aside: I towed my relatively modern leisure boat a fair bit with our historic tug on our recent trip - should I then cite that bye-law each time I try and forge through a bridge to the detriment of a single boat trying to come the other way ? I don't believe I should...)

[Nightwatch]

From looking at photos of previous years, I don't think the participants do much dressing up. I could be wrong, though.

 

I think the biggest point of runs like this is to preserve skills and attitudes, which are as important an aspect of history as the boats themselves. Skills like pair boating, using snatchers and snubbers, strapping in, holding back lines, gatelining, etc. are as worthy of preservation and practice and dissemination as, say, a grained back cabin with roses, or well-scrubbed ash strips and white cotton rope.

 

In your example above, your colleague probably felt it was important to know pike drill or how to load and fire a matchlock- such skills being as important as the dressing up.

 

A good analogy is preserving the skills to work Tornado flat out down the main line, in addition to shiny polished engines preserved in aspic at the National Railway Museum.

 

I suspect also that it serves as a good reminder of how bloody hard actually working boats could be. It's very easy to be sucked into the wild flowers on the cabin top, cosy back cabin, polished brass idealistic view of the past, forgetting about 16 hour days, slippery lock beams in the wet, and getting soaked to the skin, just to "get 'em ahead".

 

I think it's important to recreate and show what the boats did, in addition to the boats just being preserved.

Of course i agree with your comments about the many people that take part in this event. To be admired and I do realise the importance of running this event.

On another point, I don't need to be patronised into realising the skills hard work and commitment that working boatmen and their families had during our past. Their contribution, as you will appreciate was vital to the development of the country during the industrial revolution and later years.

 

My oringinal post was a little tongue in cheek as already stated, based on an incident many years ago involving an 'ex' working boat and it's crew, not on The Jam 'ole Run, unless they sometimes navigated the K&A!!. Which before anyone else takes a pop, I realise they didn't. Did they???

 

Martyn

[Blaker]

Many boaters, (both owner boaters and hirers), probably pass a motor/butty combination rarely enough that they do not even always spot that what is coming towards them is two boats.

 

Stories of what happens when boaters think they can nip past one and into the "gap" between the two would seem to amplify that point!

 

The crew in charge of a pair (loaded and unloaded) should, in my view, possess some of the skills necessary to deal with situations that the less experienced may throw at them, (is a "day boater" really going to have been instructed what they should do if they pass a fully loaded set of coal boats at a bridge ? - I hardly think so!).

 

Unfortunately some working boat enthusiasts, (fortunately a very small minority), don't seem to even need the additional argument that it is "a pair" to justify a boating style that often says "I think I have priorty, whatever!".

 

On the other hand, most are highly responsible, even if (like me), sometimes lacking the experience to get it fully right 100% of the time. But all of those of us who love our ex working boats in my view need to constantly try to second guess what those who know little of their operation may do next. Just because a bye-law exists, it doesn't mean we should use it without exemption to say "I've got a pair - therefore my right of way".

 

(Interesting aside: I towed my relatively modern leisure boat a fair bit with our historic tug on our recent trip - should I then cite that bye-law each time I try and forge through a bridge to the detriment of a single boat trying to come the other way ? I don't believe I should...)

 

I'm not disagreeing with your comments but put yourself in the loaded pairs position. (Unloaded on cross-straps shouldn't be a problem). Imagine meeting another boat at a bridgehole, the other boat should be able to stop very quickly, a loaded motor takes far longer. The loaded butty carries on regardless, stuffing it in the bank may not be an option due to moored boats, even if you could the result may mean an age trying to refloat it again afterwards. The motor steerer meanwhile has to throw the motor in reverse, try to steer, quickly pull in yards of tow line so that it doesn't foul the prop', worry about where the butty is going - all of this in the space of a few seconds. If the butty steerer doesn't manage to hit the motor square up the arse of the stern fenders (this is difficult to achieve) then the butty flies past the stern of the motor and all hell breaks loose. Nobody will be going anywhere for a while.

 

Consider the same situation except that the other boat stops, loaded pair go through the bridge, then other boat goes through - no problem. Surely this is the far better and stress free scenario.

[GUMPY]

I have fond memories of a certain skipper that never gave way to anything on account that he had a pair and there was nothing bigger on the cut.

Unfortunately he was wrong and happened to meet it at a bridge...........when it had claim to the bridge.

Oh how I smiled

[Dekazer]

What are the dates for this year's Jam 'Ole run please? Thank you

[alan_fincher]

Consider the same situation except that the other boat stops, loaded pair go through the bridge, then other boat goes through - no problem. Surely this is the far better and stress free scenario.

Yes, for a loaded pair......

 

But quite a few of the boats I'm thinking about haven't been loaded with anything vaguely significant in many years.

 

I'd say the NBT boats are the only "trust" or "friends" ones to regularly carry anything significant ? I know President occasionally carries a token "load" of something, but it seldom weighs more than a ton or two, does it ?

[mykaskin]

I'm not disagreeing with your comments but put yourself in the loaded pairs position. (Unloaded on cross-straps shouldn't be a problem). Imagine meeting another boat at a bridgehole, the other boat should be able to stop very quickly, a loaded motor takes far longer. The loaded butty carries on regardless, stuffing it in the bank may not be an option due to moored boats, even if you could the result may mean an age trying to refloat it again afterwards. The motor steerer meanwhile has to throw the motor in reverse, try to steer, quickly pull in yards of tow line so that it doesn't foul the prop', worry about where the butty is going - all of this in the space of a few seconds. If the butty steerer doesn't manage to hit the motor square up the arse of the stern fenders (this is difficult to achieve) then the butty flies past the stern of the motor and all hell breaks loose. Nobody will be going anywhere for a while.

 

Consider the same situation except that the other boat stops, loaded pair go through the bridge, then other boat goes through - no problem. Surely this is the far better and stress free scenario.

 

Yes, and no. At the end of the day, learning how to pull up a loaded pair in any situation is good practice. Also controlling other users of the waterways to allow smooth passage. It's all part of steering and controlling historic boats and should be part of the syllabus for running working boats.

 

What are the dates for this year's Jam 'Ole run please? Thank you

 

If it happens, it should be:

 

13th - 21st October

 

Yes, for a loaded pair......

 

But quite a few of the boats I'm thinking about haven't been loaded with anything vaguely significant in many years.

 

I'd say the NBT boats are the only "trust" or "friends" ones to regularly carry anything significant ? I know President occasionally carries a token "load" of something, but it seldom weighs more than a ton or two, does it ?

 

President never (well, not that I'm aware of) carries a load in the butty - it is crew accommodation, however is know to carry several tons of coal in the motor:

 

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

Edited September 7, 2012 by mykaskin

[twbm]

'Also controlling other users of the waterways to allow smooth passage.'

 

Now that's an interesting phrase.