Jam 'Ole run

[onionbargee]

About 2 years ago, i'm talking about.

 

If they seek to get from where ever they start, to Bulls Bridge in the fastest time possible, and run all night then it can only be anti social.

 

I shall re-enact the lock keeper role from " the bargee" film.

[J R ALSOP]

Whats that then, go to the pub get "pxxxxd" and leave without paying.

[alan_fincher]

If they seek to get from where ever they start, to Bulls Bridge in the fastest time possible, and run all night then it can only be anti social.

I don't believe they do attept to do it in the fastest time possible, though, and that's the difference.

 

I can only call as I see, and didn't watch the earlier ones, but if we are talking about 2010, then I lock wheeled around the Tring area for boats like Corona and Stanton.

 

I can say with fair confidence that the owners of those boats are interested in making good progress without upsetting other canal users, and, certainly watching them boat then, there was no question of them going flat out - none whatsoever!

 

EDIT:

 

And both those boats have loaded in recent years, Corona very heavily so, so they are not boats just boated around for show - they have both worked in support of the retail coal trade since those events.

Edited September 11, 2012 by alan_fincher

[onionbargee]

I don't believe they do attept to do it in the fastest time possible, though, and that's the difference.

 

I can only call as I see, and didn't watch the earlier ones, but if we are talking about 2010, then I lock wheeled around the Tring area for boats like Corona and Stanton.

 

I can say with fair confidence that the owners of those boats are interested in making good progress without upsetting other canal users, and, certainly watching them boat then, there was no question of them going flat out - none whatsoever!

 

EDIT:

 

And both those boats have loaded in recent years, Corona very heavily so, so they are not boats just boated around for show - they have both worked in support of the retail coal trade since those events.

 

The hard working olde boatmen on Corona, and Stanton ! amazing the massive tonnage they must carry about without ever scratching the paint in the hold. Pull the other one Alan.

[alan_fincher]

[/color]

 

The hard working olde boatmen on Corona, and Stanton ! amazing the massive tonnage they must carry about without ever scratching the paint in the hold. Pull the other one Alan.

I'm afraid your desire to carry this on only demonstrates your ignorance of the topic.

 

Corona is perhaps a carrying boat that has been in the same ownership just about longer than any other.

 

I don't recall the full history, but if you cared to talk to its long term owner, (who is a perfect gentleman), I'm sure he bought it well before the 1970s, and has owned it 40 years plus.

 

He doubtless knows far more about carrying that any of us, (you included), are ever likely to.

 

I imagine he must now be in his 70s, (but don't quote me on that), and regularly single-hands Corona all over the place.

 

He carried this load up at Stoke Bruerne as recently as last year.....

 

 

That is no toy load, just to say "I've had something in the hold". It is a proper load.

 

Care to show us a picture of you carrying anything similar ?

 

You really have picked the wrong target with Corona and its owner. Put bluntly, you don't actually know, do you ? - you are just making assumptions about all these people.

 

EDIT:

 

Oh, and just to add. The boat was anything but shiny until quite recently - it was remarkably un-shiny in fact. It is only shiny now because the place he keeps it gave him a free repaint in recognition of just how long he has moored with them, and his long term contribution to the canals.

Edited September 11, 2012 by alan_fincher

[onionbargee]

yeah Trevor Maggs, ( i was trying to not be personal,) so what, a picture of a one off full load of coal, you can blow me out of the water by telling me how often this happens Alan, once a week ? once a month ? once a decade ?....

 

 

Why are you trying to pretend these boats are somehow carrying or trading except for an occasional hobby. It's just not true is it.

 

it's a forum, that's why i'm "carrying on with it" er, that's what a forum is for. And i am just a mere ordinary boater, i make no claims to anything.

 

And Sickles hold is planked over, and is a rally and festival bothering boat according to your blog, so it's a bit cheeky you asking me what have i ever carried.

Edited September 11, 2012 by onionbargee

[Tuscan]

I have no act to grind on this one way or another so merely comment. My understanding is the Jam ole run is a bit of a race in that they seek to get down to London in the fastest and most efficient time. I also believe that the boaters that do this are pretty skilled with lock wheelers riding ahead to set and close the locks to make this happen and I am sure that they do not intentionally set out to disturb anyone.

 

On the wider point I think you are probably right the majority of working boat owners have them as hobbies in the way that someone would have a classic car, the majority are also very competent boatmen I believe. The few boats that are still working on coal and fuel deliveries work bloody hard and I buy off them whenever I can.

[alan_fincher]

Whatever one's views, I'd be very surprised if these particular boaters had behaved as you suggest, either in terms of disruption to others, or in terms of damaging infrastructure. And if they behave OK on both those points, why should they not do it if they want to ? What is the problem with it, even if you think it is pointless ?

 

I'm not an apologist for all in the historic boat set - I'll freely admit I have seen some who's behaviour I consider totally unacceptable - in fact far worse sometimes than what you are complaining of. I've not however seen any of those linked to Jam 'Ole.

 

I'll not name names, but IMO those few morons do a lot of damage for the very much larger number of people who behave responsibly.

 

I'm also not going to claim we all get it right all the time - I made some almighty cods-us just a couple of days ago. Nobody else but my co-owner saw, but I was still pissed off with my ineptitude.

 

But lets let it rest there though - we are never going to agree on whether things like the Jam 'Ole events are worth holding or not, are we ?

Edited September 11, 2012 by alan_fincher

[mykaskin]

If you want to know what the Jam 'ole run is actually like, watch my video:

 

https://vimeo.com/channels/jamole08

 

Dropping the ground paddles on the GU is perfectly acceptable, even the local lengthsmen do this!

 

Mike

[alan_fincher]

Dropping the ground paddles on the GU is perfectly acceptable, even the local lengthsmen do this!

Although I agree historically it was always done, I'm not sure I'd agree with you now.

 

I have certainly witnessed both BW / CaRT staff ticking people off for doing it, (but, as you say, others doing it themselves!...)

 

As one occasionally comes across an example that has become "disconnected", I'm not totally convinced it is a harmless sport. Intuitively it feels like winding them down things are less likely to suffer metal fatigue or other failures over time.

 

Personally, if it is a GU ground paddle, (which I can't easily brake with my hand), I do wind them all down these days.

 

I know a lot of the "historic boat" set don't though.

 

It seems to me that, whether it is a bad idea or not, if many modern canal users now think it is a "bad idea", then they form a negative opinion of those they see doing it.

 

There are plenty of similar things in this category, I guess. For example, working boatmen would not have manually opened uphill gates if they could let the boat(s) push them open for them. There is probably little harm in continuing such practices, unless a lock now has some poor design change that makes it unwise, but people who don't know the history are in danger of thinking it irresponsible to do so. A difficult call, as I don't think we should stop doing labour saving things if they are not dangerous and don't damage the infrastructure, but it can be precisely these things that cause some people to think people operating historic boats are "louts"!

[mykaskin]

...and more the reason to continue to keep tradition alive - for without it, that canals are just another fun park.

 

Mike

[bizzard]

Although I agree historically it was always done, I'm not sure I'd agree with you now.

 

I have certainly witnessed both BW / CaRT staff ticking people off for doing it, (but, as you say, others doing it themselves!...)

 

As one occasionally comes across an example that has become "disconnected", I'm not totally convinced it is a harmless sport. Intuitively it feels like winding them down things are less likely to suffer metal fatigue or other failures over time.

 

Personally, if it is a GU ground paddle, (which I can't easily brake with my hand), I do wind them all down these days.

 

I know a lot of the "historic boat" set don't though.

 

It seems to me that, whether it is a bad idea or not, if many modern canal users now think it is a "bad idea", then they form a negative opinion of those they see doing it.

 

There are plenty of similar things in this category, I guess. For example, working boatmen would not have manually opened uphill gates if they could let the boat(s) push them open for them. There is probably little harm in continuing such practices, unless a lock now has some poor design change that makes it unwise, but people who don't know the history are in danger of thinking it irresponsible to do so. A difficult call, as I don't think we should stop doing labour saving things if they are not dangerous and don't damage the infrastructure, but it can be precisely these things that cause some people to think people operating historic boats are "louts"!

You need Mintex or Ferodo brake linings on the palms of your gloves to let the GU gate paddles down quickly. Doing them bare handed will only cause big rusty Segs.

Edited September 12, 2012 by bizzard

[pete harrison]

Dropping the ground paddles on the GU is perfectly acceptable, even the local lengthsmen do this!

 

Mike

Dropping ground paddles may be "perfectly acceptable" but is it really necessary. My view (and I do all of my boating on ex'working boat' pairs) is that if it is not really saving time or effort then it is best to do things the modern way, that way other canal users are less likely to see ex-working boats in a negative light. Personally I usually wind down all paddles and I do not believe it costs me any time whatsoever. What does really concern me with dropping paddles is that other boat owners / hirers may be tempted to copy what the ex-working boats have just done without being aware of the risks to fingers, hair or clothing getting caught in the uncontrolled falling rack.

 

My other ex-working boat gripe is thumblining / gatelining when a pair of boats is mob handed (more than the steerer plus 2). Although this looks 'cool' when done properly it is always quicker to open the gates manually if there is crew on the bank, then of course one crew member can stay back and close the gates behind the boats (the modern way to keep everybody else happy) before cycling ahead to set the next lock. To be honest if boating with a steerer plus 2 it is still easy to close the gates behind you without it costing time, and this is my normal practice. Like everybody else if I am boating lighter handed I will leave some gates open behind me.

 

Please do not use these examples as an excuse to tell me that I do not know what I am doing and I have no historical empathy as neither is true. I have the utmost respect for the boaters and their practices but the canals have moved on. I prefer to see the ex-working boats operated alongside modern boats and not in conflict with them (although this is of course an ideal as I probably upset another canal user every day due to the nature of ex-working boats).

[alan_fincher]

You need Mintex or Ferodo brake linings on the palms of your gloves to let the GU gate paddles down quickly. Doing them bare handed will only cause big rusty Segs.

It's actually very easy to brake the bottom (geared) GU gate paddles down in a harmless way. The more common problem these days is that they are so ill-maintained they will not actually fall, and it needs a windlass to force them down as well as up!

 

You do tend to need more "Ferodo-lined" hands on the (ungeared) top ones, particularly if you are trying to grip rusty flaky paint. Easier for them to run aay from you.

 

However, the (ungeared) ground paddles, of which Mike is talking, generally only show the taper shaft, and, if you are no more "macho" than I am, trying to brake that with a bare hand ain't that easy, (particularly as you'll be trying to hold the pawl off with the other).

 

On the Southern GU, I always wind down ground paddles, but usually hand brake the lower gate ones. Top gates - depends on the paddles. This is usually enough to stop attention from the "you shouldn't be doing that" brigade, and seems to be how many BW operatives do it too.

[pete harrison]

There are plenty of similar things in this category, I guess. For example, working boatmen would not have manually opened uphill gates if they could let the boat(s) push them open for them. There is probably little harm in continuing such practices, unless a lock now has some poor design change that makes it unwise, but people who don't know the history are in danger of thinking it irresponsible to do so. A difficult call, as I don't think we should stop doing labour saving things if they are not dangerous and don't damage the infrastructure, but it can be precisely these things that cause some people to think people operating historic boats are "louts"!

I think there is quite a difference to the boats pushing top gates open when the levels are equalised to trying to gain a few seconds by ramming the gates open when the levels are inches apart. Unfortunately I have seen far to much of the latter with the current crop of ex-working boaters (not all, but some).

[alan_fincher]

Dropping ground paddles may be "perfectly acceptable" but is it really necessary. My view (and I do all of my boating on ex'working boat' pairs) is that if it is not really saving time or effort then it is best to do things the modern way, that way other canal users are less likely to see ex-working boats in a negative light. Personally I usually wind down all paddles and I do not believe it costs me any time whatsoever. What does really concern me with dropping paddles is that other boat owners / hirers may be tempted to copy what the ex-working boats have just done without being aware of the risks to fingers, hair or clothing getting caught in the uncontrolled falling rack.

 

My other ex-working boat gripe is thumblining / gatelining when a pair of boats is mob handed (more than the steerer plus 2). Although this looks 'cool' when done properly it is always quicker to open the gates manually if there is crew on the bank, then of course one crew member can stay back and close the gates behind the boats (the modern way to keep everybody else happy) before cycling ahead to set the next lock. To be honest if boating with a steerer plus 2 it is still easy to close the gates behind you without it costing time, and this is my normal practice. Like everybody else if I am boating lighter handed I will leave some gates open behind me.

 

Please do not use these examples as an excuse to tell me that I do not know what I am doing and I have no historical empathy as neither is true. I have the utmost respect for the boaters and their practices but the canals have moved on. I prefer to see the ex-working boats operated alongside modern boats and not in conflict with them (although this is of course an ideal as I probably upset another canal user every day due to the nature of ex-working boats).

Excellent post Mr Harrison.

 

Your logic is unflawed in my view.

 

It frustrates the hell out of me when I not only have to wait whilst a fully crewed "trust" boat insists on gate-lining, (badly usually!), but then also insists on "educating" me about "this is how it used to be done". No it isn't chum! - when they did it, they probably only had a crew of two - nobody was on the bank watching, as the wheeler was already on his or her way to the next lock. And it was perfectly acceptable to motor off with gates and paddles left open. These days, if you are going to (perhaps reluctantly!) agree to comply with modern convention, then shutting up after you (if nothing else is coming) is what is now expected, and pi**ing about gate-lining is more likely to waste time than save it, IMO.

 

I think there is quite a difference to the boats pushing top gates open when the levels are equalised to trying to gain a few seconds by ramming the gates open when the levels are inches apart. Unfortunately I have seen far to much of the latter with the current crop of ex-working boaters (not all, but some).

Agree again.

 

There is one particular Josher I hate to see approaching, because ramming and slamming seems to be what they think constitutes good boatmanship. You know what it will be like, before any hand (or boat) gets let loose on a lock.

 

And I don't mean as a "one off, I was a bit too quick there" kind of thing - I mean as their normal behaviour at every lock - it is their standard way of working, and they seem to want to intimidate other canal users.

 

I'll happiy use the word "moron" in that particular case - a handful of these morons can result in their loutish behaviour then being wrongly associated with everybody who likes to work old boats, but in a way that attempts not to cross the boundaries that most "ordinary" boaters expect of you.

[bizzard]

It's actually very easy to brake the bottom (geared) GU gate paddles down in a harmless way. The more common problem these days is that they are so ill-maintained they will not actually fall, and it needs a windlass to force them down as well as up!

 

You do tend to need more "Ferodo-lined" hands on the (ungeared) top ones, particularly if you are trying to grip rusty flaky paint. Easier for them to run aay from you.

 

However, the (ungeared) ground paddles, of which Mike is talking, generally only show the taper shaft, and, if you are no more "macho" than I am, trying to brake that with a bare hand ain't that easy, (particularly as you'll be trying to hold the pawl off with the other).

 

On the Southern GU, I always wind down ground paddles, but usually hand brake the lower gate ones. Top gates - depends on the paddles. This is usually enough to stop attention from the "you shouldn't be doing that" brigade, and seems to be how many BW operatives do it too.

And appropriately if Jam is rubbed into the palms would lubricate them and ease the pain.

[alan_fincher]

And appropriately if Jam is rubbed into the palms would lubricate them and ease the pain.

If you then get it back on the paddle gear though, doesn't that result in it getting jammed ?

[bizzard]

If you then get it back on the paddle gear though, doesn't that result in it getting jammed ?

Only sticky and ready for the next user. Fly's would be the biggest problem.

[FadeToScarlet]

If you then get it back on the paddle gear though, doesn't that result in it getting jammed ?

 

It might *ahem* preserve them for the future.....

[onionbargee]

dropping paddle gear is ok, i never heard such a load of cobblers. Any CRT lock maintainance man will tell you why.

 

Or show me a picture of the special buffer the paddle gear falls on for doing this, don't Google image it because there isn't one.

 

The video posted states and shows they are trying to get from A to B as fast as possible. And they are slamming the gates.

[Laurence Hogg]

dropping paddle gear is ok, i never heard such a load of cobblers. Any CRT lock maintainance man will tell you why.

 

Or show me a picture of the special buffer the paddle gear falls on for doing this, don't Google image it because there isn't one.

 

The video posted states and shows they are trying to get from A to B as fast as possible. And they are slamming the gates.

 

Dont forget the HAm Baker gear is designed to be dropped but I do agree dropping without any braking of other gear is a no no, I drop gear but control the speed with my hand on the shaft, if I cant do that its wound down. Some of the "werkin boat" crowd of today leave a lot to be desired when it comes to practice.

[alan_fincher]

...and more the reason to continue to keep tradition alive - for without it, that canals are just another fun park.

 

Mike

Whilst I fully appreciate where you are coming from Mike, it isn't actually necessary to let ground paddles free fall, or to shove gates open against a head of water to "keep tradition alive".

 

Working boatmen used to do both on a regular basis - there is no doubt about that - and I'm old enough to remember.

 

But there is no actual skill in either, is there ? So we are not exactly letting an "art" die, are we, if we decide not to do them ourselves - a simple video of someone doing either now would be more than sufficient to allow a total novice to practice the "skill" at any future date, and get it "right" first time!

 

So whilst I totally agree with your sentiment on "keeping tradition alive" for boating activities where there is genuine "skill", I can't really see an argument for perpetrating some practice that may actually be making failure of the infrastructure more likely, and where no actual "skill" comes into it.

 

dropping paddle gear is ok, i never heard such a load of cobblers. Any CRT lock maintainance man will tell you why.

Note I'm trying to balance both sides of an argument here!

 

Actually I don't think a lot of those maintaining the locks will necessarily agree that dropping a GU ground paddle is guaranteed to damage it. For a start, as Mike rightly says, some employees can often be seen doing just that, (although others equally may tick you off if you do it.......).

 

I still subscribe to Pete Harrison's view though. Generally the time saved is highly marginal - it may encourage others who have been trained to wind to try it as an alternative, and they may not get it right - and a lot of people do now (rightly or wrongly) believe it is bad practice in the modern age, so seeing historic boat crews do it, is likely to cause them to label us as irresponsible.

 

The video posted states and shows they are trying to get from A to B as fast as possible. And they are slamming the gates.

Out of interest, as there have been lots of videos, lots of boats and lots of years, which boats/video/year are you referring to. I still think we are in danger of tarring the responsible ones with the actions of just a few, (and maybe not a recent few ?).

Edited September 12, 2012 by alan_fincher

[carlt]

I think there is a big difference in "dropping" paddles in a controlled manner and just allowing them to fall.

 

Winding them down with the windlass is potentially dangerous and should be discouraged.

[Tuscan]

Dont forget the HAm Baker gear is designed to be dropped but I do agree dropping without any braking of other gear is a no no, I drop gear but control the speed with my hand on the shaft, if I cant do that its wound down. Some of the "werkin boat" crowd of today leave a lot to be desired when it comes to practice.

 

 

 

 

Agreed I drop gear where I can take the pressure off using my hand , and use my hand as a break. I also always chech when entering the lck that the paddle is fulling down, as this method sometimes means the paddle doesn't ground properly.