Jam 'Ole run

[alan_fincher]

I think there is a big difference in "dropping" paddles in a controlled manner and just allowing them to fall.

 

Winding them down with the windlass is potentially dangerous and should be discouraged.

Most people who pretend they can drop GU ground paddles in a controlled manner, in my view often can't.

 

If you are not going to wind them, most people end up letting them crash down, because trying to brake the taper with just the average bare hand is at best painful, and typically nigh on impossible. A leather glove you don't mind getting knackered might help.

 

Anyway, I can't agree with the last point, when inexperienced people are involved - trying to train hirers to let paddles down braked by hand (even leaving out the ground paddle problems doing this) is potentially a lot "iffier" than trying to train them how to wind them down IMO.

 

BY THE WAY: I'm assuming Mike is saying that letting ground paddles free fall is quite OK - if that's not what he means, perhaps he can elaborate ?

Edited September 13, 2012 by alan_fincher

[carlt]

Anyway, I can't agree with the last point, when inexperienced people are involved - trying to train hirers to let paddles down braked by hand (even leaving out the ground paddle problems doing this) is potentially a lot "iffier" than trying to train them how to wind them down IMO.

 

Having sucked in breath whilst looking at the nasty bruise on a first timer's arm and discussing how much worse it could have been, you will never convince me.

 

I'd rather novices risked the wrath of CRT and forumites by accidentally letting a paddle fall than getting a smack in the face by a spinning windlass.

 

Leather work gloves are not expensive and teaching a lock wheeler how to control the descent of paddle gear is not that difficult.

[ChimneyChain]

Having sucked in breath whilst looking at the nasty bruise on a first timer's arm and discussing how much worse it could have been, you will never convince me.

 

I'd rather novices risked the wrath of CRT and forumites by accidentally letting a paddle fall than getting a smack in the face by a spinning windlass.

 

Leather work gloves are not expensive and teaching a lock wheeler how to control the descent of paddle gear is not that difficult.

 

Well surely the first timer that was doing the paddles was just clumsy?? It can't be that hard to lift a lever and wind the paddle down in a controlled manner.

 

Darren

[bizzard]

Letting them down with that square spindle by hand can bring on the shakes and trembles in that hand for some time afterwards, and if you drink tea with that trembling hand it will be spilt. Looks like a windlass with a built in clutch is needed for some folk to wind these paddles down at a moderate speed, like that's on a fishing reel. Or wind em up and down with a large variable speed battery drill. Or every set of paddle gear could have one of these drills permanently attached to it, to prevent spilt tea.

[alan_fincher]

We'll agree to differ, I think.

 

A further point to consider, by the way, is that poor design of replacement paddle gear on GU locks has often resulted in pawls that can no longer be hooked out of the way, so have to be permanently held out of the way using one hand, whilst the other hand is the only means available to actually lower the paddle, however you try to do it.

 

So, if faced, as you often are, with one that needs a slight use of the windlass to release the gear from the pawl, (because most people don't have the strength in their wrists to twist the bar or taper by hand), then you are faced with not being able to safely take the windlass off, and switching over to braking with your hand. (Clearly this issue doesn't arise where you can fully flick the pawl out the way, but many locks no longer allow this - possibly not realised by those no loinger travelling the length of this canal on a regular basis?).

 

Similar arguments apply on the "grounds - one hand has to be tied up holding the "pawl", (usually a cover with a "tooth" concealed behind on the modern replacement gear), so again you only ever have one hand to control the windlass and/or taper. Mike Askin can no doubt release most by hand - I probably can too, on a good day - but lots of the "silver boaters" simply do not have that kind if muscle strength, in my experience.

 

On balance, I firmly believe it is best if the less experienced wind, not brake. That said, I brake about 50% of the time, including on all bottom gates - except that except that a lot of those require a windlass anyway , because these days they are too stiff to even fall if encouraged by a hand turning the rodding....

 

AS AN ASIDE: I know some experienced BW (now CaRT) operatives quite well - including some that do a lot of the repairs and gate replacements, and will have seen a lot of paddle failures. I'll ask them next time I see them whether they think free-falling any of the paddle types actually contributes to damage or not......

[IanM]

I think, as quite often is the case, that terminology that people use is often the cause of confusion and then the arguments discussions.

 

In my understanding, to drop a paddle means to lower it. Whether that be by winding it down or using one's hand as a brake (I do both depending on the design of the paddle gear).

 

I would like to think that if I said to most people on this forum "just go and drop that paddle over there" they wouldn't just pull off the pawl and let the hole thing rocket down*... would they???

 

 

*- apart from the GU worm gear (we've been through that before).

[alan_fincher]

I think, as quite often is the case, that terminology that people use is often the cause of confusion and then the arguments discussions.

 

In my understanding, to drop a paddle means to lower it. Whether that be by winding it down or using one's hand as a brake (I do both depending on the design of the paddle gear).

 

I would like to think that if I said to most people on this forum "just go and drop that paddle over there" they wouldn't just pull off the pawl and let the hole thing rocket down*... would they???

 

 

I took that to be exactly Mike's meaning here......

 

Dropping the ground paddles on the GU is perfectly acceptable, even the local lengthsmen do this!

 

Mike

 

As it would make no sense to say "even the local lengthsmen lower the paddles slowly in a controlled way", would it - it would be totally obvious that is acceptable!

 

Certainly in the last days of regular long distance working boat traffic on the Southern GU, more often than not, that is exactly what was done - pawl off, and let them crash down uncontrolled - the same whether it was grounds, top gates, or bottom gates. THe noise of them cannoning down is etched in my memory, and, leisure boating in the 1970s, most people had no qualms about mimicking the behaviour.

 

Perhaps Mike can confirm he means "it is still OK to drop GU ground paddles without braking them" - or, if not, what he does mean ?

 

*- apart from the GU worm gear (we've been through that before).

 

Actually it is not worm gear (we have been through that before to!....)

[IanM]

 

 

 

Actually it is not worm gear (we have been through that before to!....)

 

I was trying to think of a way to describe it having forgotten the name of it

[alan_fincher]

I was trying to think of a way to describe it having forgotten the name of it

Someone actually found a diagram of the internals before.

 

It is based on bevel gears, not worm gears.

 

Linky

 

The information on this confirms they were actually designed to free-fall, despite some people now telling you they should not!

 

A sluice valve is operated by screw gearing of such a pitch that the valve, when raised and released, will descend by its own weight.

[IanM]

Someone actually found a diagram of the internals before.

 

It is based on bevel gears, not worm gears.

 

Linky

 

The information on this confirms they were actually designed to free-fall, despite some people now telling you they should not!

 

That's the thread I was thinking of

[mayalld]

I think there is a big difference in "dropping" paddles in a controlled manner and just allowing them to fall.

 

Winding them down with the windlass is potentially dangerous and should be discouraged.

 

I am going to have to agree with Carl here.

 

There is FAR less prospect of injury or damage with a hand braked paddle than there is winding down an unbraked paddle.

[bizzard]

Lets be realistic and talk sense folks. As a great many jobs these days involve office work, just sitting about at desks playing computers and all i doubt very much if these peoples hands would be anywhere near strong and tough enough to let paddles down by bare hand without injury as from what i've seen at any rate most blokes hands these days are like babies hands, and would be cut and blistered in no time.

[alan_fincher]

I am going to have to agree with Carl here.

 

There is FAR less prospect of injury or damage with a hand braked paddle than there is winding down an unbraked paddle.

So do you claim to be able to hand brake a ground paddle on the Southern GU with 100% reliability then ?

 

It is not like many ground paddles, and there is absolutely nothing round you can get hold of.

 

Only if you can restrain the rotating square taper is it possible - I certainly can't manage that with anything approaching reliability, and whilst I'm not Mr Muscles, I'm probably a lot stronger than many people who'll wish to "drop" those paddles.

 

Do you reckon you could reliably train a hire boater to do it ? I'd love to see you try!

 

Lets be realistic and talk sense folks. As a great many jobs these days involve office work, just sitting about at desks playing computers and all i doubt very much if these peoples hands would be anywhere near strong and tough enough to let paddles down by bare hand without injury as from what i've seen at any rate most blokes hands these days are like babies hands, and would be cut and blistered in no time.

I suspect some of the input here is coming from people with little practical experience of the actial paddle gear being talked about.

 

I've covered hundreds of miles n the last couple of months, and on many of the canals, particularly the Midlands "narrow" ones, I would hand brake paddles, because it is dead easy to do.

 

The design of a Southern GU ground paddle, though, means you either need leather gloves, or at least leather palms!

 

Many people will not even be able to get the pawl back off "sans windlass", let alone do a controlled drop without one.

 

(...... and I still think Mike was saying it is still fine just to let them free fall, anyway!).

Edited September 13, 2012 by alan_fincher

[bizzard]

So do you claim to be able to hand brake a ground paddle on the Southern GU with 100% reliability then ?

 

It is not like many ground paddles, and there is absolutely nothing round you can get hold of.

 

Only if you can restrain the rotating square taper is it possible - I cerytainly can't manage that with anything approaching reliability, and whilst I'm not Mr Muscles, I'm probably a lot stronger than many people who'll wish to "drop" those paddles.

Reckon you could reliably train a hire boater to do it ? I'd love to see you try!

I agree Alan, ''You need hends'' Max Byegraves, well used to hard manual graft to do it without injury, strong and well calloused.

[alan_fincher]

We should be pushing on through Braunston and Buckby locks on Saturday, and then Stoke Bruerne either late Saturday or early Sunday, depending on progress.

 

That's 20 GU locks, and 40 top ground paddles, (well 39 actually because one at Stoke Bruerne hasn't worked for months - perhaps it has been "dropped" too much! ).

 

Cath and I would be very happy for anyone to turn out and demonstrate they can gently lower all those ground paddles, with none crashing down, and without use of windlass, (and not have damaged hands by the end....).

 

Until they do, I'm sticking with my version, based on my own experience!

[mayalld]

So do you claim to be able to hand brake a ground paddle on the Southern GU with 100% reliability then ?

 

It is not like many ground paddles, and there is absolutely nothing round you can get hold of.

 

No, I fully accept that there are some paddles that need to be lowered with a windlass.

 

The point remains that for others ("T&M, Northwich gear", and "BCN" are much safer friction braked by hand than lowered with a windlass.

 

Perhaps we all need those friction devices that the eclusiers on the Canal du Midi use.

[alan_fincher]

No, I fully accept that there are some paddles that need to be lowered with a windlass.

Fair enough - no argument then!

[bizzard]

We should be pushing on through Braunston and Buckby locks on Saturday, and then Stoke Bruerne either late Saturday or early Sunday, depending on progress.

 

That's 20 GU locks, and 40 top ground paddles, (well 39 actually because one at Stoke Bruerne hasn't worked for months - perhaps it has been "dropped" too much! ).

 

Cath and I would be very happy for anyone to turn out and demonstrate they can gently lower all those ground paddles, with none crashing down, and without use of windlass, (and not have damaged hands by the end....).

 

Until they do, I'm sticking with my version, based on my own experience!

I doubt whether most peoples hands would be tough or strong enough these days to even brake the GU's gate paddle shafts successfully barehanded never mind ground paddle spindles.

Have a good trip.

[Keeping Up]

I doubt whether most peoples hands would be tough or strong enough these days to even brake the GU's gate paddle shafts successfully barehanded never mind ground paddle spindles.

Have a good trip.

 

I fine they're OK if they are in good condition, but many of them have sharp flakes of rust beneath the paint, that can make quite a nasty cut on your palm.

[Tuscan]

Isn't it just common sense , you are all right , doesn't everybody just adapt to the canal they are on, hydraulic just knock off, narrow normally you can lower by hand , GU South ground paddles windlass but the top paddles by hand. Best the hirers are shown one process using windless, and taught to use safety hasp and remove windless , they can learn more during the normal lock chat.

[mayalld]

Lets be realistic and talk sense folks. As a great many jobs these days involve office work, just sitting about at desks playing computers and all i doubt very much if these peoples hands would be anywhere near strong and tough enough to let paddles down by bare hand without injury as from what i've seen at any rate most blokes hands these days are like babies hands, and would be cut and blistered in no time.

 

 

I must be the exception.

 

Office work, playing with computers, yet with hands that can brake a paddle spindle.

 

Isn't it just common sense , you are all right , doesn't everybody just adapt to the canal they are on, hydraulic just knock off, narrow normally you can lower by hand , GU South ground paddles windlass but the top paddles by hand. Best the hirers are shown one process using windless, and taught to use safety hasp and remove windless , they can learn more during the normal lock chat.

 

 

Yes, to a large extent it is about common sense knowing which methos is best.

 

However, I can't agree that it is better that hirers are just shown one method, because that will mean that on some paddles, they are using a dangerous method.

[Tuscan]

I must be the exception.

 

Office work, playing with computers, yet with hands that can brake a paddle spindle.

 

 

 

 

 

If you can do that on the buckby and stoke flight , as Alan says then I am impressed well dne.

[carlt]

If you can do that on the buckby and stoke flight , as Alan says then I am impressed well dne.

 

I did it all the time on the Buckby flight, wearing a stout pair of leather rigger gloves (not those skinny ones from the pound shop).

[David Schweizer]

I doubt whether most peoples hands would be tough or strong enough these days to even brake the GU's gate paddle shafts successfully barehanded never mind ground paddle spindles.

Have a good trip.

Our ex-working boatman captain on Pisces used to hand brake the GU ground paddles (without gloves!), I tried it a couple of times and soon gave up, resorting to winding them down. I did (and still do) hand brake geared gate paddles, using the round bar. Now that really was a familiar sound on the Southern GU in the 60's.

[XAlan W]

I'm afraid your desire to carry this on only demonstrates your ignorance of the topic.

 

Corona is perhaps a carrying boat that has been in the same ownership just about longer than any other.

 

I don't recall the full history, but if you cared to talk to its long term owner, (who is a perfect gentleman), I'm sure he bought it well before the 1970s, and has owned it 40 years plus.

 

He doubtless knows far more about carrying that any of us, (you included), are ever likely to.

 

I imagine he must now be in his 70s, (but don't quote me on that), and regularly single-hands Corona all over the place.

 

He carried this load up at Stoke Bruerne as recently as last year.....

 

 

That is no toy load, just to say "I've had something in the hold". It is a proper load.

 

Care to show us a picture of you carrying anything similar ?

 

You really have picked the wrong target with Corona and its owner. Put bluntly, you don't actually know, do you ? - you are just making assumptions about all these people.

 

EDIT:

 

Oh, and just to add. The boat was anything but shiny until quite recently - it was remarkably un-shiny in fact. It is only shiny now because the place he keeps it gave him a free repaint in recognition of just how long he has moored with them, and his long term contribution to the canals.

I`m not sure when Trevor acquired Corona but he had it in 1967 so that makes 45 years at least

 

Our ex-working boatman captain on Pisces used to hand brake the GU ground paddles (without gloves!), I tried it a couple of times and soon gave up, resorting to winding them down. I did (and still do) hand brake geared gate paddles, using the round bar. Now that really was a familiar sound on the Southern GU in the 60's.

 

David as you probably well know, shaking hands with Dennis was like grasping hold of an elephants trunk