Gas Bullsh**

[the grinch]

personally i would investigate a claim for compensation as the surveyor was obviously negligent if he passed a boat with defects that have come to light so soon after his "Full Survey"

 

Biggles i feel sorry for you, its seems you have had a bad run first the gas now the engine pipework. never mind only the water left to go! luckily there aren't many things that are regulated on that!

[Joshua]

personally i would investigate a claim for compensation as the surveyor was obviously negligent if he passed a boat with defects that have come to light so soon after his "Full Survey"

 

 

I appreciate your sentiment, but… and I say this as both a retired solicitor and long-suffering consumer, life is too short. For a claim of this type and value, no one would benefit.

 

 

 

Joshua

[Biggles]

 

 

Biggles i feel sorry for you, its seems you have had a bad run first the gas now the engine pipework. never mind only the water left to go! luckily there aren't many things that are regulated on that!

 

No I've had no problem with the engine pipework. This was a side thread that got started.

 

I appreciate your sentiment, but… and I say this as both a retired solicitor and long-suffering consumer, life is too short. For a claim of this type and value, no one would benefit.

 

 

 

Joshua

 

 

I disagree. The BSS inspectors over the 12 years are clearly not doing their job and as gas is probably the biggest reason for the BSS's existance I think at the very lease they should be reported to the BSS admin as they are clearly putting people at risk and need re-educating.

[the grinch]

sorry but have to disagree there, as biggles says the main purpose of BSS is safety with gas being top of a long list if a survey was not done within the criterior of the standards then at least the customer should be entitled to a refund of charges made.

As a business we have to stand the cost of such claims that is why we have things like liability insurance. I do on occassions have to refund charges because I have not done something right (luckily in 20+ years its only been twice) and often i have to either not charge (because i can't fix) or just walk away before even starting. those are the perils of self employment.

[smileypete]

 

The whole ensemble already uses a braided hose, although I admit it may not have the correct markings, I'm not sure.

 

What I think, I was told, is that the interconnect between the 4 injectors ouudt to be chanded to metal, and the (correct) braided hose used only for the subsequent connection.

 

I haven't been back and seen what the book says yet, I'll admit!

 

The boat came with a letter from Calcutt filed with the BSS, explaining why what was there was acceptable, so it had clearly been questioned by a previos inspector. My last inspector passed it without comment, but this time it got a mention, (although examiner used his discretion not to fail it).

Maybe ask the BSS inspectior to point out the relevant part of the guide, and if it really is a grey area clarify it with the BSS office.

 

 

I shouldn't feel too bad about it.

 

We purchased a 12 year old boat at the beginning of the year, having taken the precautions of getting a full survey.

 

A couple of weeks ago, it failed its BSS.

 

The inspector (not the one that did the pre-purchase survey) found it failed on all counts, including the use of soldered joints.

 

It also failed because none of the joints were accessible to inspection, none of the piping was properly supported and in many places it had electrical cable wrapped around it!

 

Amazingly it has passed all its BSS certificates over the last 12 years, until now!!

 

We had to have the whole lot stripped out and replaced.

Maybe likewise when buying a boat, look for any iffy areas and ask the BSS inspector/surveyor to point out the relevant section in the guide that shows it's OK (or not!)

 

cheers,

Pete.

smpt

Edited May 11, 2012 by smileypete

[larkshall]

 

Just a thought. if I was having a full survey done on a boat, I'd ask the surveyor to issue a new BSS ticket at the same time...

 

(If I'd ordered a survey, I would be pretty serious about the purchase)

[MtB]

 

Just a thought. if I was having a full survey done on a boat, I'd ask the surveyor to issue a new BSS ticket at the same time...

 

(If I'd ordered a survey, I would be pretty serious about the purchase)

 

Are all surveyors qualified to issue BBS certificates then? I thought BSS inspecting and safety certificating were different (although related) occupations. I'd imagine there are quite a few about who are both but I'm pretty certain not all BSS bods are qualified surveyors.

 

Equally I wouldn't be surprised to find fully qualified marine surveyors consider BSS inspections a little beneath them, and something to do only when the better paying survey work is quiet

[ditchcrawler]

and i am still at a loss to figure out how to fit a metal spill rail to a ford 1.8 as used by thornycroft, also fitted to countles foxes boats. the injector has the hose tails for the spill rail built into the injector body, unlike the bmc which uses banjos.

 

according to bss they boat should be re-engined for a problem that does not really exsist?

Is there not some get out by using a none return valve in there somewhere?

[gazza]

I was going to keep away from this subject as I have already said all I want to on soldered gas pipes in a previous thread.

However the subject of "spill Rails" came up

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There seems to be a misunderstanding of the purpose or implementation of the BSS requirements on spill rails.

The requirement is that all fuel lines must meet ISO 7840 or equivalent standard, the issue being fire resistance.

Should they fail the danger is that the fuel tank will empty into the engine bay feeding the fire.

On most modern diesel engines the injector spill is connected between injectors by metal pipe by the manufacturer this meets the standard.

Some manufacturers however use small flexible "rubber" hoses often of their own design.These, if they are in good condition are acceptable. These hoses do perish over time and finding replacements of the correct rating of the required diameter is difficult. Under this circumstance, other hose may be suitable with the following provisos: -

1. That the hose is suitable for the fuel.

2. That the spill rail should return to the top of the fuel tank so as to be self draining (Spill rail conncctions must therefore be above the fuel tank top), or a non return valve be fitted at the engine end of the line to the tank.

3. They must of course fit correctly and not leak.

 

I hope this has cleared up a few points. BSS Dont ask anyone to change engine!

 

Biggles, I'm sorry you had so much hassle

 

my point was that BSS recomendation is not actually best practice in this case. the OEM fit for flexible leak off rails are perfectly safe and servicable, the use of a non return valve is about the only sensible recomendation.

 

i was being a bit flipant re engine replacement, see post 44 regarding fire ratings etc...

[Radiomariner]

my point was that BSS recomendation is not actually best practice in this case. the OEM fit for flexible leak off rails are perfectly safe and servicable, the use of a non return valve is about the only sensible recomendation.

 

i was being a bit flipant re engine replacement, see post 44 regarding fire ratings etc...

 

The BSS does not recommend that you replace or modify the OEM fittings for flexible leak off rails. The problem was, as I said, finding replacement for the small hoses that met the required standard. (If I recall, should be able to withstand temperature of 600 C for 2.5 minutes), BSS therefore came up with the ideas I mentioned. On some boats where the fuel tank is below the top of the engine the first suggestion is possible, otherwise as you say a NRV is required.

 

To answer queries of other posters in this thread.

Not all surveyors are qualified to do BSS examinations.

Not all BSS examiners are qualified or experienced enough to do surveying.

 

Some surveyors consider BSS examiners to be "Box Tickers", a job requiring little knowledge and won't pay a few thousand pounds and study for a "lesser" qualification.

 

Examiners are box tickers. Keeping things consistant is the aim. Old school surveyors habituallly make descisions "outside the box " this can lead to inconsistancy such as the case where a boat has passed its BSC for twelve years then fails when a "box ticker" comes along

 

Me? After retiring from the Merchant Navy, for something to do while waiting to attend the course for BSS Examiners, I studied for and attained a Diploma in Marine Surveying. My surveying experience since is limited to assisting a more experienced surveyor. In my late 60's I no longer wish to grovel around in the mud under boats or squeeze into minute cofferdam spaces to examine scantlings. So I do not do surveying, just "box ticking"

[smileypete]

The BSS does not recommend that you replace or modify the OEM fittings for flexible leak off rails. The problem was, as I said, finding replacement for the small hoses that met the required standard. (If I recall, should be able to withstand temperature of 600 C for 2.5 minutes), BSS therefore came up with the ideas I mentioned. On some boats where the fuel tank is below the top of the engine the first suggestion is possible, otherwise as you say a NRV is required.

But originally the BSS did require all spill rails had to be metal. And 'came up with the ideas'? I think you're being a bit generous here

 

So a lot of boats have the more expensive and potentially inferior metal spill rails because of the requirements of the BSS when the boat was made some time ago.

 

Thankfully these days the BSS is much better, but it seems a few examiners are still biased toward the original requirement.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Radiomariner]

But originally the BSS did require all spill rails had to be metal. And 'came up with the ideas'? I think you're being a bit generous here

 

So a lot of boats have the more expensive and potentially inferior metal spill rails because of the requirements of the BSS when the boat was made some time ago.

 

Thankfully these days the BSS is much better, but it seems a few examiners are still biased toward the original requirement.

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

The alternative options came out on a Bulletine to all examiners about nine years ago I believe and is now incorporated into the Examiners training manual. (Before my time!)

[blackrose]

I spoke to the local BSS inspector and was told so long as its seamless drawn copper tube that would be fine. He will be the one doing the inspection at some point so I went with that. After all This is the exact same stuff used in home and commercial properties every day.

 

Is this the same as soft "refrigeration quality" copper tube or are you talking about rigid pipe?

 

Sorry I don't know the British Standard or ISO numbers.

[the grinch]

refredigeration comes in different grades 22,21,20& 19 SWG and are specifically designed for that purpose only

see p.76 of BES catologue

[smileypete]

refredigeration comes in different grades 22,21,20& 19 SWG and are specifically designed for that purpose only

see p.76 of BES catologue

If the wall thickness is adequate, it must be fine for LPG, surely?

 

cheers,

Pete.

[the grinch]

if it was, i doubt that bes would point it out!

[MtB]

If the wall thickness is adequate, it must be fine for LPG, surely?

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

No. It must be annealed copper tube to be OK for LPG, not half-hard or any of the other hardness options.

 

The BSS bod advising Biggles is simply wrong. All copper tube is 'seamless drawn'.

[smileypete]

No. It must be annealed copper tube to be OK for LPG, not half-hard or any of the other hardness options.

 

The BSS bod advising Biggles is simply wrong. All copper tube is 'seamless drawn'.

I meant the coils which are annealed:

 

Refrigeration quality seamless copper tubes and coils, dehydrated, cleaned (degreased) capped and plugged. Annealed to half hard (straight lengths) and soft (coils). Manufactured to BS EN 1057 (BS 2871 : Part 2 : 1972), ASTM B280, DIN 1754/8905. All dimensions refer to outside diameter.

NOTE: THESE TUBES AND COILS ARE SPECIFICALLY FOR USE IN REFRIGERATION. FOR PLUMBING TUBES AND COILS PLEASE CLICK HERE.

 

14575 15 m x 3/8", 21 SWG

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Biggles]

 

The BSS bod advising Biggles is simply wrong. All copper tube is 'seamless drawn'.

 

 

Er, not sure where that came from I was advised to use EN1057 which I have.

 

Did a manometer test over he weekend an after an hour absolutely no drop at all.

[jonathanA]

Is that compression fitting still tight - yes - good. No - tighten it up.

 

Now, I can see a ring of solder on the end of this fitting, but does it extend to the full depth of the joint??? Where's my x-ray machine?

 

Richard

oops just over tightened that with my big spanner/bulging biceps and its b**gered...

 

or

 

squirt leak detector everywhere to see if it bubbles ...

 

not really convincing imho....

[RLWP]

oops just over tightened that with my big spanner/bulging biceps and its b**gered...

 

or

 

squirt leak detector everywhere to see if it bubbles ...

 

not really convincing imho....

 

This isn't a leak test. That is done with a manometer and a watch

 

Richard

[mayalld]

Er, not sure where that came from I was advised to use EN1057 which I have.

 

Did a manometer test over he weekend an after an hour absolutely no drop at all.

 

 

What pressure did you test at?

[mayalld]

I have spent the day ripping out a perfectly good and sound gas system because I used solder joints, which in millions of omes, factories, farms, shops, hospitals, in fact just about anywhere accept a boat.

 

I have now replaced it with the regulation compression fittings which IMO is very much inferior.

 

Total BS as far as I'm concerned.

 

Given that you have installed a gas system without checking that it was in compliance with the relevant requirements, and that you are advocating the use of a potentially lethal device to refill gas bottles, I do have to ask whether you are actually competent to carry out this work.

[Biggles]

What pressure did you test at?

 

Daft question! But I'll answer it anyway. It's tested at the regulator setting which is 37mb

[the grinch]

Daft question! But I'll answer it anyway. It's tested at the regulator setting which is 37mb

 

 

daft answer in return!! as you do not test at 37Mbar pressure!

 

the more this thread goes on. the more it proves that the OP is not competent to be touching Gas in the first place and that actually the installation could be potentially lethal THIS IS THE REASON that we have "THE BULLSHIT" regulations in the first place!.