Gas Bullsh**

[Biggles]

Given that you have installed a gas system without checking that it was in compliance with the relevant requirements, and that you are advocating the use of a potentially lethal device to refill gas bottles, I do have to ask whether you are actually competent to carry out this work.

 

Just because I made a mistake in interpreting the RDC rules NOT the BSS rules, doesn't make me less competent. As soon as I realised the error I successfully corrected it.

 

As for competence, well as the new install is 100% sound, and the old one was then I would have to say yes. Am I qualified? no, is a qualified person competent? one would hope so but mistakes happen

 

As for using an adaptor to fill a gas bottle, I’m happy with the setup. The pressures are quite low and the bottles tested to 5 time the working pressure. Now if you think the risk of explosion due to over filling is a risk, consider this. The air pressure in bus or truck tyre is over the psi in a gas bottle and they will certainly not stand 5 times the pressure. So next time you are standing by such a tyre have a little worry to your self because if that exploded as they do, I think the result would be the same.

 

Of course its impossible to over pressure the gas bottle at the pump. The pump only delivers at a safe pressure. The dangers come from over filling which can result in over pressure from heating of the bottle and expanding the LPG which would deploy the safety valve. Of more concern from over filling IMO would be the delivery of liquid to the regulator in such a case.

 

I feel your question was a littel bit veiled, even bordering on passiv aggressive. Did you want to ask it another way perhaps? Re-word it perhaps?

 

daft answer in return!! as you do not test at 37Mbar pressure!

 

the more this thread goes on. the more it proves that the OP is not competent to be touching Gas in the first place and that actually the installation could be potentially lethal THIS IS THE REASON that we have "THE BULLSHIT" regulations in the first place!.

 

 

OK so given that the pressure in the system is 37mb how could you possibly check at any other pressure?

Edited May 14, 2012 by Biggles

[Timleech]

 

OK so given that the pressure in the system is 37mb how could you possibly check at any other pressure?

 

Use your lungs

 

Tim

[ditchcrawler]

 

 

 

 

OK so given that the pressure in the system is 37mb how could you possibly check at any other pressure?

Did you use the gas from the bottle to test with then?

[Biggles]

Did you use the gas from the bottle to test with then?

 

Of course, what else would you use?

[mayalld]

Daft question! But I'll answer it anyway. It's tested at the regulator setting which is 37mb

 

And thank you for supplying the entirely predictable daft answer.

 

Rest assured that were this an episode of QI, the klaxons would be sounding and the big telly would be flashing 37mb.

 

The mere fact that you got this answer wrong is, BTW, proof positive that you aren't competent to work on gas systems.

[Chris Pink]

I don't profess to know the schoolboy secret here but it's what my suitably qualified BSS tester did. Gas bottle one end manometer the other, 37mB up it.

 

And my gas system, obviously installed by a competent person, passed.

 

 

 

..

Edited May 14, 2012 by Chris Pink

[mayalld]

As for using an adaptor to fill a gas bottle, I’m happy with the setup. The pressures are quite low and the bottles tested to 5 time the working pressure. Now if you think the risk of explosion due to over filling is a risk, consider this. The air pressure in bus or truck tyre is over the psi in a gas bottle and they will certainly not stand 5 times the pressure. So next time you are standing by such a tyre have a little worry to your self because if that exploded as they do, I think the result would be the same.

 

Of course its impossible to over pressure the gas bottle at the pump. The pump only delivers at a safe pressure. The dangers come from over filling which can result in over pressure from heating of the bottle and expanding the LPG which would deploy the safety valve. Of more concern from over filling IMO would be the delivery of liquid to the regulator in such a case.

 

I feel your question was a littel bit veiled, even bordering on passiv aggressive. Did you want to ask it another way perhaps? Re-word it perhaps?

 

So, the basic upshot is that despite the fact that you don't have sufficient knowledge to KNOW whether something is safe, your hunch that it will probably be OK is sufficient?

 

If you were the only person who was going to die when it goes wrong, it wouldn't be such a big problem.

 

 

 

OK so given that the pressure in the system is 37mb how could you possibly check at any other pressure?

 

OK, I sense that others are actually tempted to hand you a larger shovel to dig yourself an even deeper hole here, and as I asked you the trick question, I will actually explain it to you.

 

You start the test by pressurising the system from the bottle, and seeing that the manometer indicates 37mb (showing that the regulator is doing its job).

 

Then you turn the bottle off (please tell me that you at least did this bit). The manometer still shows 37mb.

 

Now, assume that you have a small leak. What will the manometer show 5 minutes later? The answer is that it will STILL show 37mb.

 

The reason that testing at 37mb won't work is that at 37mb you have still got a small amount of HP gas on the hp side of the regulator, and the regulator will let that gas into the LP side to compensate for any leaks until the HP side is also at 37mb. This means that a small leak will not be apparent.

 

The CORRECT way to test for leaks is at 25-30mb, as follows;

 

Turn the bottle off, light the smallest burner on the cooker and watch as the manometer stays at 37mb for a while. As soon as it starts to drop, turn the burner off. You should now be somewhere in the high 20's, and should stay there.

 

At this point, you know that you are testing the soundness of the LP pipework, rather than simply seeing the leaking gas replaced from the HP side.

 

Testing a gas system for leaks at 37mb proves only that you shouldn't be testing gas systems.

 

I don't profess to know the schoolboy secret here but it's what my suitably qualified BSS tester did. Gas bottle one end manometer the other, 37mB up it.

 

And my gas system, obviously installed by a competent person, passed.

 

 

 

..

 

If your gas system was subjected to a soundness test with a manometer at 37mb, I would suggest that you report him to the BSS office immediately, because he has carried out a test that simply will not prove the soundness of the system, and he shouldn't be testing gas systems.

[Timleech]

Maybe things have changed, but for a new system I was taught to over-pressurise with air for the initial test.

 

That was before the days when CORGI got their sticky fingers into boat gas systems, maybe they & their successors know better?

 

Tim

 

 

 

So, the basic upshot is that despite the fact that you don't have sufficient knowledge to KNOW whether something is safe, your hunch that it will probably be OK is sufficient?

 

If you were the only person who was going to die when it goes wrong, it wouldn't be such a big problem.

 

 

 

 

OK, I sense that others are actually tempted to hand you a larger shovel to dig yourself an even deeper hole here, and as I asked you the trick question, I will actually explain it to you.

 

You start the test by pressurising the system from the bottle, and seeing that the manometer indicates 37mb (showing that the regulator is doing its job).

 

Then you turn the bottle off (please tell me that you at least did this bit). The manometer still shows 37mb.

 

Now, assume that you have a small leak. What will the manometer show 5 minutes later? The answer is that it will STILL show 37mb.

 

The reason that testing at 37mb won't work is that at 37mb you have still got a small amount of HP gas on the hp side of the regulator, and the regulator will let that gas into the LP side to compensate for any leaks until the HP side is also at 37mb. This means that a small leak will not be apparent.

 

The CORRECT way to test for leaks is at 25-30mb, as follows;

 

Turn the bottle off, light the smallest burner on the cooker and watch as the manometer stays at 37mb for a while. As soon as it starts to drop, turn the burner off. You should now be somewhere in the high 20's, and should stay there.

 

At this point, you know that you are testing the soundness of the LP pipework, rather than simply seeing the leaking gas replaced from the HP side.

 

Testing a gas system for leaks at 37mb proves only that you shouldn't be testing gas systems.

 

 

 

If your gas system was subjected to a soundness test with a manometer at 37mb, I would suggest that you report him to the BSS office immediately, because he has carried out a test that simply will not prove the soundness of the system, and he shouldn't be testing gas systems.

[MoominPapa]

The CORRECT way to test for leaks is at 25-30mb, as follows;

 

Turn the bottle off, light the smallest burner on the cooker and watch as the manometer stays at 37mb for a while. As soon as it starts to drop, turn the burner off. You should now be somewhere in the high 20's, and should stay there.

That's the way I do it.

 

I've seen suggestions that you should in fact test at two different pressures, just in case there's a leak through the bottle valve and regulator which happens to exactly balance an second leak out of the pipework.

 

MP.

[mayalld]

Maybe things have changed, but for a new system I was taught to over-pressurise with air for the initial test.

 

That was before the days when CORGI got their sticky fingers into boat gas systems, maybe they & their successors know better?

 

 

 

The actual pressure used isn't vastly important.

 

What is important is that the system is isolated from an source that might replace leaking pressure.

 

If you test at 37mb, then you aren't isolated.

[Biggles]

I was trying to keep it simple in my post #69 the clues were in the words drop and hour, but you clearly missed that.

 

I did indeed drop the pressure down from 37mb not as much as you are suggesting but to 35mb and yes of course the bottle supply tap was turned off indeed my regulator assy. has a tap on it for this very purpose imediatly before the test point.

 

Just for the avoidence of doubt I will post some photos shortly. And if you want further proof I will publish the EXIF data too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, the basic upshot is that despite the fact that you don't have sufficient knowledge to KNOW whether something is safe, your hunch that it will probably be OK is sufficient?

 

If you were the only person who was going to die when it goes wrong, it wouldn't be such a big problem.

 

 

 

 

OK, I sense that others are actually tempted to hand you a larger shovel to dig yourself an even deeper hole here, and as I asked you the trick question, I will actually explain it to you.

 

You start the test by pressurising the system from the bottle, and seeing that the manometer indicates 37mb (showing that the regulator is doing its job).

 

Then you turn the bottle off (please tell me that you at least did this bit). The manometer still shows 37mb.

 

Now, assume that you have a small leak. What will the manometer show 5 minutes later? The answer is that it will STILL show 37mb.

 

The reason that testing at 37mb won't work is that at 37mb you have still got a small amount of HP gas on the hp side of the regulator, and the regulator will let that gas into the LP side to compensate for any leaks until the HP side is also at 37mb. This means that a small leak will not be apparent.

 

The CORRECT way to test for leaks is at 25-30mb, as follows;

 

Turn the bottle off, light the smallest burner on the cooker and watch as the manometer stays at 37mb for a while. As soon as it starts to drop, turn the burner off. You should now be somewhere in the high 20's, and should stay there.

 

At this point, you know that you are testing the soundness of the LP pipework, rather than simply seeing the leaking gas replaced from the HP side.

 

Testing a gas system for leaks at 37mb proves only that you shouldn't be testing gas systems.

 

 

 

If your gas system was subjected to a soundness test with a manometer at 37mb, I would suggest that you report him to the BSS office immediately, because he has carried out a test that simply will not prove the soundness of the system, and he shouldn't be testing gas systems.

[mayalld]

That's the way I do it.

 

I've seen suggestions that you should in fact test at two different pressures, just in case there's a leak through the bottle valve and regulator which happens to exactly balance an second leak out of the pipework.

 

MP.

 

That is correct.

 

The second test should be carried out at a very low pressure (5mb) to ensure that there is no pass-by skewing the soundness test.

[Timleech]

The actual pressure used isn't vastly important.

 

What is important is that the system is isolated from an source that might replace leaking pressure.

 

If you test at 37mb, then you aren't isolated.

 

Yes I'm well aware of the second part, that was also included in what we were taught (by Calor).

 

Tim

[mayalld]

I was trying to keep it simple in my post #69 the clues were in the words drop and hour, but you clearly missed that.

 

I did indeed drop the pressure down from 37mb not as much as you are suggesting but to 35mb and yes of course the bottle supply tap was turned off indeed my regulator assy. has a tap on it for this very purpose imediatly before the test point.

 

Just for the avoidence of doubt I will post some photos shortly. And if you want further proof I will publish the EXIF data too.

 

So, after saying 37mb because it would be impossible to test at any other pressure, you now say that it was 35mb.

 

far too close to working pressure to be relied upon, and frankly the fact that you say you dropped the pressure having previously not even grasped the point about it suggests that if you tested at 35mb, it was because you have a reg that locks up at 35mb, rather than because you dropped the pressure.

 

What about the pass by test at a lower pressure still?

 

I still say that a number of comments about LPG that you have made clearly show you NOT to be competent to fiddle with gas systems.

[Biggles]

So, after saying 37mb because it would be impossible to test at any other pressure, you now say that it was 35mb.

 

far too close to working pressure to be relied upon, and frankly the fact that you say you dropped the pressure having previously not even grasped the point about it suggests that if you tested at 35mb, it was because you have a reg that locks up at 35mb, rather than because you dropped the pressure.

 

What about the pass by test at a lower pressure still?

 

I still say that a number of comments about LPG that you have made clearly show you NOT to be competent to fiddle with gas systems.

 

 

Whatever:- I am having a BSS done anyway next week so my competence will be proved or otherwise.

 

 

 

BSS don't do a low pressure test, at least I'v never seen one.

 

FYI I have done 100's of gas installation in my previous business, and while not a qualified installer, in order for my products to be be issued a Cert. of Comformation accredited people were sourced to check and sign off on the work, both gas and electrical. Now guess what, I won't say I ever had to re-do something as I really dont ever recall but I'm pretty sure I never had to re-do something.

 

It's clear that you will never be convinced of my competance but really do I care? I am, my wife is, and so too will the BSS inspector in due course just as he was on my last boat gas installation.

 

ETA pic of my regulator showing test point and isolation tap.

 

Edited May 14, 2012 by Biggles

[the grinch]

sorry biggles but I as a gassafe lpg boats registered engineer have to agree with dave and would go as far as saying you from what has been said on this thread are actually incompetent!

[Guest]

FYI I have done 100's of gas installation in my previous business, and while not a qualified installer, in order for my products to be be issued a Cert. of Comformation accredited people were sourced to check and sign off on the work, both gas and electrical. Now guess what, I won't say I ever had to re-do something as I really dont ever recall but I'm pretty sure I never had to re-do something.

 

Now I am confused as I had always thought it was OK to still do electrical and gas connection stuff on a DIY basis and have it checked off by a 'competent' qualified person afterwards - but then I'm sure it's been said on here recently that this is no longer allowed - or is it on boats and not domestic or vice versa....

[Biggles]

Now I am confused as I had always thought it was OK to still do electrical and gas connection stuff on a DIY basis and have it checked off by a 'competent' qualified person afterwards - but then I'm sure it's been said on here recently that this is no longer allowed - or is it on boats and not domestic or vice versa....

 

 

I don't even think you need it checked off if its DIY. I was selling on my products so they needed systems sign off. The reason I never got self certed was because I never had the time to do the courses and keep up with changes and it was cheaper to get in outside contractors.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Biggles

[the grinch]

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's clear that you will never be convinced of my competance but really do I care? I am, my wife is, and so too will the BSS inspector in due course just as he was on my last boat gas installation.

 

ETA pic of my regulator showing test point and isolation tap.

 

 

 

yet again your arrogance shines through! orange hose on your test equipment which isn't suitable for testing gas should be black neoprene.

 

how have you tested the complete installation with only one bottle? how have you tested the HP part of your installation?

[mayalld]

 

BSS don't do a low pressure test, at least I'v never seen one.

 

 

Well, I will leave it to BSS examiners to say whether such a test is included. Certainly every BSS I have had done has included a let-by test, and the paperwork has space for recording the pressure at which the let- by test was done.

 

 

It's clear that you will never be convinced of my competance but really do I care? I am, my wife is, and so too will the BSS inspector in due course just as he was on my last boat gas installation.

 

 

So, provided YOU are happy with your installation, and YOU are happy with filling bottles on the forecourt, it is OK?

 

No, it isn't OK, because you are incompetently playing with things that will when they go wrong kill or injure other people.

 

I now find myself in a quandry.

 

I have always opposed the stranglehold that CORGI and GasSafe had on installations, and pointed out repeatedly that own-account installations without being registered, and have vigorously defended my right to competently install my own gas.

 

Having read your ill-founded views of your own competence, I am now increasingly of the belief that for the greater good, it may be necessary to remove the right to work on your own installation without registration.

 

If that were imposed, it would cost be money, but rather that than you costing somebody their life.

[smileypete]

yet again your arrogance shines through! orange hose on your test equipment which isn't suitable for testing gas should be black neoprene.

Er, why? Reference?

Edited May 14, 2012 by smileypete

[dor]

I don't want to get into the argument about whether or not your gas installations are competent, but I do find it remarkable that someone would install a complete boat gas system without bothering to have a look at the BSS guide book first.

[the grinch]

lp gas eats into the orange rubber hose material and makes it brittle

[Biggles]

The manometer was loaned to me by a gas safe regestered engineere who I know has been in the industry 40+ years so I'll trust his equipment over your assumption that it's orange it can't be neoprene.

 

If you look at the date of the photo you will see its of when I fitted it Not when I tested it which was yesterday. It was purely to show the test point and tap proximity.

 

It's clear your are not going to be convinced I am competent, and as I said before I don't really care as you are nothing to me. I am really disappointed in myself for letting myself be drawn it this debate so deeply with you. Had ii not been raining cats and dogs I would have much better things to do today.

 

Hopefully this debate will deter others with even less competence that are reading it from having a go at gas as despite your thoughts on me you do make valid points.

 

I shall now retire from this side debate on my competence. But please knock yourselves out boys by continuing to berate me. I know I have made a safe and beautiful boat with my otherwise incompetent hands.

[mayalld]

The manometer was loaned to me by a gas safe regestered engineere who I know has been in the industry 40+ years so I'll trust his equipment over your assumption that it's orange it can't be neoprene.

 

Does he actually test LPG installations, or is his manometer used for natural gas?

 

or is that just another minor detail that you aren't going to bother with?

 

The manometer was loaned to me by a gas safe regestered engineere who I know has been in the industry 40+ years so I'll trust his equipment over your assumption that it's orange it can't be neoprene.

 

Does he actually test LPG installations, or is his manometer used for natural gas?

 

or is that just another minor detail that you aren't going to bother with?