Navigating at night

[nigel carton]

I allways use a light at night, the only time my night vision dissapears is when my phone goes off or I light a fag.

[Tam & Di]

....so what are the light requirements for a powered vessel >20m on a BW commercial waterway? or are you saying that there is no standard?

 

 

I'd have to check with BW regs to check what lights are required as I've not boated commercially in the UK for about 18+ years, and even then our last trading was the Thames and East coast where we were more subject to COLREGS. But I'm sure they would be BW regs, not CEVNI regs, and even though the basic set of lights would probably be similar I wouldn't bet on them being identical as to their brightness for instance.

 

Alan did put a table on of what lights are applicable that I think related to BW commercial waterways, and I imagine it would give full details of requirements in that document. I know there used to be minor differences between various other authorities in different parts of the country, but hopefully they might have come closer together now.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Tam & Di

[Ray T]

I put navigation lights on CF as close as I could to the COLREG rules (cos I like that sort of thing) but was told by a forum member they were "iffy".

 

If you're worried about rules, give up narrow boating and sail offshore the rules are a lot clearer!

Edited November 17, 2011 by Ray T

[Keeping Up]

Travelling late on the River Witham last year, my tunnel light wasn't powerful enough to reach the bank if I was in the middle of the river. That was perfect because my night vision remained good and I knew I was correctly in the middle of the "wet bit" as long as the light didn't show anything at all. Mind you, I did get slightly confused at one point by the reflection from a set of chevrons by the road that runs along the bank.

[ditchcrawler]

Yes. The person I quoted assumed you would realise that his post did not give you carte blanche to ignore local regulations or restrictions. If he had tried to do that, his post might have taken several pages.

 

For instance:

 

Exception No 947. You can't navigate on waterways that have no water in them.

Exception No 948. You can't use a lock if BW have closed it for repairs.

Exception No 949. You can't navigate on the Thames if flood warnings are in force.

 

Etc.

I think 949 is wrong

 

Just picked up December`s edition of Waterways World, page 42 shows what can happen at night, even more frightening than if happened through day.

 

" A 40` narrowboat negotiating Camden locks on the Regents late at night on the 2nd Oct. came stuck on the cill.This mishap closed the locks for 2 days BW are likley to charge him for the cost of recovery"

 

A lot more get cilled in daylight, therefore locking is safer at night.

[Dalesman]

....so what are the light requirements for a powered vessel >20m on a BW commercial waterway? or are you saying that there is no standard?

The 1965 General Canal Bye-Laws state that on Commercial waterways ALLcraft must show the normal navigation lights ie Masthead, Port, Starboard, and Stern light.

[alan_fincher]

The 1965 General Canal Bye-Laws state that on Commercial waterways ALLcraft must show the normal navigation lights ie Masthead, Port, Starboard, and Stern light.

But they don't.......

 

The only commercial waterways that it seems to explicitly spell this out for are those in 10 (5)

 

Displaying of Lights and Visual Signals

 

(5) On the Trent Navigation, the Weaver Navigation, the Aire and

Calder Navigation, the New Junction Canal and the Sheffield and

South Yorkshire Navigation (below Doncaster) a power-driven

vessel shall in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraphs (1),

(2), (3) and (4) as the case may be of this Bye-law display:-

(a) On the starboard side a visible green light so constructed as

to show an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of ten points

of the compass (112½°) so fixed as to show the light from right

ahead to two points (22½°) abaft the beam on the starboard side.

( On the port side a visible red light so constructed as to show

an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of ten points of the

compass (112½°) so fixed as to show the light from right ahead

to two points (22½°) abaft the beam on the port side.

 

There were certainly other "commercial waterways" in 1965, and it is obvious from 10 (1) and 10.2 that narrow boats on these were exempted from anything other than a forward facing white light.

 

Displaying of Lights and Visual Signals

 

10. (1) Subject as hereinafter provided, a power-driven vessel (other

than a narrow canal boat) when under way at night shall carry –

(a) On or in front of the foremast, or if a vessel without a foremast

then in the forepart of the vessel, and in either case at a height

above the hull of not less than four feet, a visible white light so

constructed as to show an unbroken light over an arc of the

horizon of twenty points on the compass (225°) so fixed as to

show the light ten points (112½°) on each side of the vessel that

is, from right ahead to two points (22½°) abaft the beam on either

side; and

( in addition to the above light, at her stern a visible white light

so constructed as to show an unbroken light over an arc of the

horizon of twelve points of the compass (135°) so fixed as to

show the light six points (67½°) from right astern on each side of

the vessel.

 

(2) A power-driven vessel, being a narrow canal boat, under way

at night shall display in the forepart of the vessel, where it can

best be seen and at a height above the deck or gunwhale or not

less than one foot, a visible white light.

Edited November 17, 2011 by alan_fincher

[The Pipe]

Exception No 949. You can't navigate on the Thames if flood warnings are in force.

 

My understanding is the Thames is still open to navigation but read your insurance policy and most will not cover you for it (Red Boards)also most state you are only covered on the Thames to the tidal barrier in a narrowboat.

Yellow boards you are OK insurance wise I think.

[sebrof]

Exception No 949. You can't navigate on the Thames if flood warnings are in force.

 

My understanding is the Thames is still open to navigation but read your insurance policy and most will not cover you for it (Red Boards)also most state you are only covered on the Thames to the tidal barrier in a narrowboat.

Yellow boards you are OK insurance wise I think.

 

My tongue was firmly in cheek when I mentioned exceptions 947, 8, and 9.

[saltysplash]

 

 

If you read the regulations carefully there is very little chance of ever fitting nav lights to a narrowboat and them actually being compliant.

 

Having read the rules many times could you explain why you think the above?

 

Do bigger vessels have night vision equipment for the Pilots ?

 

Nick

 

Yep, Radar, AIS, Supposedly proper lookouts and experience, oh and probably decent chartplotters

[onionbargee]

I hate and despise and want to violently assault canal boaters who think they can make up their own lighting rules, it's one central headlamp on the bow, and nothing else. River lights are not needed, nor are stern lights, fairy lights or disco lights.

 

deep breaths....wheres my pills ?

[matty40s]

I hate and despise and want to violently assault canal boaters who think they can make up their own lighting rules, it's one central headlamp on the bow, and nothing else. River lights are not needed, nor are stern lights, fairy lights or disco lights.

 

deep breaths....wheres my pills ?

 

should I remove the little red and green lights on the port and starboard side near the front before I come to your pound......

[onionbargee]

No, just don't switch them on until you get to a RIVER !

[blodger]

No, just don't switch them on until you get to a RIVER !

I do not agree, if you have them use them.

[Naughty Cal]

No, just don't switch them on until you get to a RIVER !

 

Why?

 

If you have them fitted you may as well use them. Making your boat visible at night is very important and to those of us who do boat on rivers with proper navigation lights a single white light would most probably be mistaken for the stern light of a boat travelling in the same direction as us.

[Hairy-Neil]

a single white light would most probably be mistaken for the stern light of a boat travelling in the same direction as us.

 

I always found assuming the worst is the best option....

[Naughty Cal]

Having read the rules many times could you explain why you think the above?

 

 

Ok so having read them you will know these quotes, but for the benefit of thos who have not here goes:

 

"NON-POWERED VESSELS UNDER 7 METERS, (23 feet):

Vessels not under power , such as rowing boats, canoes, and sailing boats under 7 meters (23 feet), in length may use a torch for navigation.

The light does not have to be turned on at all times, but should be turned on in time to avoid a collision.

When under power, and the speed is less than 7 knots, these vessels shall exhibit a fixed all-round white light, with visibility of two nautical miles, also sidelights, with a visibility of one nautical mile."

 

"VESSELS UNDER 12 METERS, (39 feet):

Motorboats: A motorboat under 12 meters (39 feet) shall exhibit:

- A mastheadlight, with visibility of two nautical miles, placed at least one meter over the sidelights.

- Separate Sidelights or a single "bicolor" light, with visibility of one nautical mile

- A stern light, with visibility of two nautical miles.

The mastheadlight and the stern light may be replaced with an all-round white light, with a visibility of two nautical miles."

 

"VESSELS UNDER 20 METERS, (65 feet):

Motorboats: A motorboat less than 20 meters (65 feet) shall exhibit:

- A mastheadlight, with visibility of three nautical miles, placed at least 2,5 meters over the upper deck.

- Separate sidelights or a single "bicolor" light, with visibility of two nautical miles.

- A stern light, with visibility of two nautical miles."

 

"VESSELS OVER 20 METERS, (65 feet):

Motorboats: A motorboat over 20 meters (65 feet) and less than 50 meters (164 feet) shall exhibit:

- A mastheadlight, with visibility of five nautical miles positioned over the sidelights.

- Separate Sidelights,

- A stern light.

When the motorboat is more then 50 meters (164 feet) it must show two mastheadlights, with visibility of six nautical miles with the forward mastheadlight positioned lower than the aft mastheadlight."

 

So for narrowboats over feet the requirements for nav lights are a mast head light 2.5m above the upper deck, (thats one big bloody mast ), seperate port and starboard lights or a bi coulour light with visibility of two miles (not the pissy little excuses of lights fitted to most narrowboats that bother to display lights) and a stern light visible for two miles (yet to see one fitted to any narrowboat)

 

I always found assuming the worst is the best option....

 

Indeed. Which is why we never do but you can see the confusion that can be caused by not displaying the internationally recognised lighting and making up your own simplified version.

[carlt]

I always found assuming the worst is the best option....

Indeed. Which is why we never do....

Huh?

[alan_fincher]

Ok so having read them you will know these quotes, but for the benefit of thos who have not here goes:

 

"NON-POWERED VESSELS UNDER 7 METERS, (23 feet):

Vessels not under power , such as rowing boats, canoes, and sailing boats under 7 meters (23 feet), in length may use a torch for navigation.

The light does not have to be turned on at all times, but should be turned on in time to avoid a collision.

When under power, and the speed is less than 7 knots, these vessels shall exhibit a fixed all-round white light, with visibility of two nautical miles, also sidelights, with a visibility of one nautical mile."

 

"VESSELS UNDER 12 METERS, (39 feet):

Motorboats: A motorboat under 12 meters (39 feet) shall exhibit:

- A mastheadlight, with visibility of two nautical miles, placed at least one meter over the sidelights.

- Separate Sidelights or a single "bicolor" light, with visibility of one nautical mile

- A stern light, with visibility of two nautical miles.

The mastheadlight and the stern light may be replaced with an all-round white light, with a visibility of two nautical miles."

 

"VESSELS UNDER 20 METERS, (65 feet):

Motorboats: A motorboat less than 20 meters (65 feet) shall exhibit:

- A mastheadlight, with visibility of three nautical miles, placed at least 2,5 meters over the upper deck.

- Separate sidelights or a single "bicolor" light, with visibility of two nautical miles.

- A stern light, with visibility of two nautical miles."

 

"VESSELS OVER 20 METERS, (65 feet):

Motorboats: A motorboat over 20 meters (65 feet) and less than 50 meters (164 feet) shall exhibit:

- A mastheadlight, with visibility of five nautical miles positioned over the sidelights.

- Separate Sidelights,

- A stern light.

When the motorboat is more then 50 meters (164 feet) it must show two mastheadlights, with visibility of six nautical miles with the forward mastheadlight positioned lower than the aft mastheadlight."

 

So for narrowboats over feet the requirements for nav lights are a mast head light 2.5m above the upper deck, (thats one big bloody mast ), seperate port and starboard lights or a bi coulour light with visibility of two miles (not the pissy little excuses of lights fitted to most narrowboats that bother to display lights) and a stern light visible for two miles (yet to see one fitted to any narrowboat)

But there remains the moot point what is "compliant" on the parts of rivers like the Trent that are controlled by BW, (indeed anything controlled by BW).

 

It is obvious that many on here consider "colregs" to be "a good thing", and they may of course be quite correct.

 

But has anyone yet produced evidence that they actually apply on waterways like the part of the Trent controlled by BW ?

 

If you consult BW bye-laws, then I think the only reference made to height of lights above deck is for a front light, (minimum 1 foot for a narrowboat, minimum 4 feet for other powered vessels, I believe), and even in cases where navigation lights are required, nothing is mentioned about height, only the displayed arc.

 

So on these (and in fact all) BW waterways it seems very possible for boats to be "compliant", without having 2.5 metre tall masts, if "colregs" don't have to enter in to it.

 

Unless someone can produce evidence where you need to comply with "colregs" in addition to BW bye-laws ?

[Evo]

[mayalld]

But there remains the moot point what is "compliant" on the parts of rivers like the Trent that are controlled by BW, (indeed anything controlled by BW).

 

It is obvious that many on here consider "colregs" to be "a good thing", and they may of course be quite correct.

 

But has anyone yet produced evidence that they actually apply on waterways like the part of the Trent controlled by BW ?

 

If you consult BW bye-laws, then I think the only reference made to height of lights above deck is for a front light, (minimum 1 foot for a narrowboat, minimum 4 feet for other powered vessels, I believe), and even in cases where navigation lights are required, nothing is mentioned about height, only the displayed arc.

 

So on these (and in fact all) BW waterways it seems very possible for boats to be "compliant", without having 2.5 metre tall masts, if "colregs" don't have to enter in to it.

 

Unless someone can produce evidence where you need to comply with "colregs" in addition to BW bye-laws ?

 

I believe that I have already proved the contrary

 

Colregs rule 1( is explicit that navigation authorities are allowed to make their own rules in place of Colregs.

 

BW have made such rules (the 1965 bye-laws), and as such colregs don't apply on BW waters.

[Chris Pink]

I believe that I have already proved the contrary

 

Colregs rule 1( is explicit that navigation authorities are allowed to make their own rules in place of Colregs.

 

BW have made such rules (the 1965 bye-laws), and as such colregs don't apply on BW waters.

 

Which raises the interesting point. If a boat on BW waters has to display a light on the foredeck that, in waters covered by international law, would show a vessel going away, then are BW liable in the case of an accident caused by the confusion caused by their rules?

[mayalld]

Which raises the interesting point. If a boat on BW waters has to display a light on the foredeck that, in waters covered by international law, would show a vessel going away, then are BW liable in the case of an accident caused by the confusion caused by their rules?

 

No, why would they be.

 

Colregs allows them to make different rules, and they have made different rules.

 

Any claim that the accident was caused because somebody assumed that Colregs applied would be bound to fail, because anybody who claimed to know colregs should also know that they are subordinate to local rules.

[sebrof]

I hate and despise and want to violently assault canal boaters who think they can make up their own lighting rules, it's one central headlamp on the bow, and nothing else. River lights are not needed, nor are stern lights, fairy lights or disco lights.

 

deep breaths....wheres my pills ?

For a moment I found myself agreeing with you (well, not to the point of contempt), but then you went and spoilt it.

 

There is no legal or practical reason to have navigation lights on the canals proper, but boats that venture onto big rivers at night are legally obliged to have proper nav lights.

 

And those do NOT include a bloody great searchlight on the front, which will blind people coming the other way. Nav lights are not for illumination; they are for telling other vessels your location, speed, propulsion method, and type.

 

And for larger NBs, while under way, the regulations call for a mast light, facing forwards, not a mast-head light (which is visible from all angles).

 

Phylis is right to say that it is not straightforward to fit nav lights to NBs. A small mast is required to elevate the mast light, and the side lights need to be elevated sufficiently so that they can be seen from ahead.

 

Proper lighting is quite rightly enforced by the authorities. I was hailed by a police boat recently because the mast light on a friend's barge that I was skippering was U/S. I placed a man on the bow with a torch , and was allowed to proceed.

Edited November 18, 2011 by sebrof

[sebrof]

No, why would they be.

 

Colregs allows them to make different rules, and they have made different rules.

 

Any claim that the accident was caused because somebody assumed that Colregs applied would be bound to fail, because anybody who claimed to know colregs should also know that they are subordinate to local rules.

 

BW rules don't normally apply on waters where Colregs do apply.

 

If you take your BW boat on the tidal Thames, for instance, you are subject to PLA rules (which embrace Colregs), not BW rules.