derv?????

[station tug]

can someone explain 60/40 split??? just read it on another post and dont understand...help please....

[jake_crew]

You have to pay additional tax on the fuel you use for propulsion, not that used for heating / electricity and this is expressed as x / y ie the split.

 

You tell the fuel seller what your split is and he calculated the tax payable.

 

The "default" split is 60/40 and is an assumption that most peolpe do more cruising than energy generation.

 

If you're a liveaboard and NEVER move, you can declare 0/100 split ie no extra tax, but you may get more hassle.

 

But some boatyards will only sell at 60/40 to save THEM from hassle but this is not correct. You TELL them the split.

[NB Alton]

Just to clarify or Confuse the situation "DERV" stands for Diesel Engined Road Vehicle" or white diesel, not Gas Oil or Red diesel

[MtB]

And to explain the history, a year or two ago EEC law required the UK to start charging the same rates of duty and tax on fuel for boats as for road vehicles when in the past, duty-free agricultural or heating fuel had been the norm.

 

Naturally the boating community pointed out that not all diesel was used for propelling boats around at full duty, and a good proportion of it is used for heating which remains at zero duty. Consequently HMRC declared fuel sold for heating may continue to be sold at zero duty but fuel sold for propulsion must have full duty paid.

 

As the same pumps deliver the same fuel for different uses at different duty rates, usually within the same purchase transaction, the only way to apportion the duty correctly is for the user to declare what proportion of the fuel just purchased is for heating, and what proportion is for propulsion, and for the retailer to calculate the duty payable. Hence the typical and common declaration of 60/40 for propulsion/heating. Or maybe it's 60/40 heating/propulsion ...

 

Simple principle but complicated for the retailer when everybody declares they use a different proportion. Some fuel retailers, for a simple life, therefore decide to turn away customers who are declaring a different proportion from the 'standard' 60/40.

 

The thing I don't understand is why this same problem seems not to exist across all the other EEC countries. Or maybe it does...

 

Mike

[bizzard]

White diesel or DERV is of better quality than red gas oil. The Zetane rating is higher.The equivalent to octane rating for petrol 'the burn rate' and cleaner burning ,less ash. bizzard.

[Dominic M]

 

The thing I don't understand is why this same problem seems not to exist across all the other EEC countries. Or maybe it does...

 

Mike

The boats are very different because almost no one would choose a boat only 7ft(ish) wide to cruise the continental waterways. The installation of a separate tank dedicated to heating and a genset is not difficult. Many barges already had this arrangement anyway. It is not accepted that there should be an allowance for recharging the batteries from the propulsion engine alternator in most other EU states (not sure what Ireland did about this issue). It was accepted by HMRC that retrospective fitting of separate tanks in narrow boats was not a practical option without the owners incurring considerable expense.

 

At the moment it is being suggested that the system devised by the UK to comply with this directive may not be legal. The RYA are strongly resisting this view. The owners of some UK boats arriving in Belgium have been fined for having red diesel in their tanks, despite having paid duty as required under the UK system.

Edited August 21, 2011 by Dominic M

[nb Innisfree]

White diesel or DERV is of better quality than red gas oil. The Zetane rating is higher.The equivalent to octane rating for petrol 'the burn rate' and cleaner burning ,less ash. bizzard.

 

Actually this isn't so since since January this year when all gas oil has to be ultra low sulphur (ULSD) the same as DERV.

[casper ghost]

And for some reason, in many marinas, the price, at the 60/40 split, works out higher than buying white diesel at a garage, which of course, it shouldn't!!

Casp'

[nb Innisfree]

As I have said before a supplier of diesel has a duty of care towards his customers and if for instance a novice boater refuelled and wasn't aware he needed to declare 90/10, that is 90% cruising, and he asked the advice of the supplier he would be making a false declaration, to the disadvantage of HMR, at 60/40.

[scrumpylurcher]

quote - Actually this isn't so since since January this year when all gas oil has to be ultra low sulphur (ULSD) the same as DERV.

As far as I am aware it is possible to buy fame free (no added Bio ) red diesel, this is not the same as road diesel which now by law has to have a percentage of BIO added.

[bizzard]

I always recommend to people to not start their engine for 20mins or so after refueling,but to pull or pole their boat clear if others are waiting, and so to allow any muck stirred up and held in suspension to settle and not get sucked into the fuel line.Take it easy,wait,make tea,have lunch,wait its worth it. bizzard

[Eeyore]

The boats are very different because almost no one would choose a boat only 7ft(ish) wide to cruise the continental waterways. The installation of a separate tank dedicated to heating and a genset is not difficult. Many barges already had this arrangement anyway. It is not accepted that there should be an allowance for recharging the batteries from the propulsion engine alternator in most other EU states (not sure what Ireland did about this issue). It was accepted by HMRC that retrospective fitting of separate tanks in narrow boats was not a practical option without the owners incurring considerable expense.

 

At the moment it is being suggested that the system devised by the UK to comply with this directive may not be legal. The RYA are strongly resisting this view. The owners of some UK boats arriving in Belgium have been fined for having red diesel in their tanks, despite having paid duty as required under the UK system.

Hi Dominic

I'm probably in a minority in having recently had a separate tank fitted for the diesel stove on my narrow boat.

My home marina at Sawley doesn't seem have a problem dispensing zero rated fuel into a separate tank; but just up river is a different story. The other marina have a sign that says they will only dispense zero rated fuel into cans, and I confirmed that this applies to me as well!

It is often said that other european countries seem to "interpret" the rules to the best advantage oftheir population.

In this country it is some businesses interpreting to thier best advantage that causes problems.

Steve

Edited August 21, 2011 by Eeyore

[by'eck]

There is an article about red diesel in the September issue of Canal Boat magazine.

 

It claims that the UK chose to implement the EU directive on disallowing the use of low duty diesel for UK pleasure boats by permitting the continued use of red diesel, with the proportion used for propulsion charged at the full DERV duty rate.

 

This decision was to avoid suppliers having to sell two fuels. Apparently though Belgian authorities have fined sea boaters arriving from the UK with illegal red diesel in their tanks even though they had proof duty had been paid on the propulsion part (60/40 split).

 

The RYA has raised the issue with the EU, but the commission has announced that it is to take legal action against the UK for implementing the directive incorrectly. This may take years though

[nb Innisfree]

quote - Actually this isn't so since since January this year when all gas oil has to be ultra low sulphur (ULSD) the same as DERV.

As far as I am aware it is possible to buy fame free (no added Bio ) red diesel, this is not the same as road diesel which now by law has to have a percentage of BIO added.

 

Same cetane rating though as far as I am aware though trying to ensure fame free is a bit of a lottery at the moment.

 

Not sure about this but I think certain segments of the marine trade will be allowed to use high sulphur diesel via a special licence?

[ditchcrawler]

There is an article about red diesel in the September issue of Canal Boat magazine.

 

It claims that the UK chose to implement the EU directive on disallowing the use of low duty diesel for UK pleasure boats by permitting the continued use of red diesel, with the proportion used for propulsion charged at the full DERV duty rate.

 

This decision was to avoid suppliers having to sell two fuels. Apparently though Belgian authorities have fined sea boaters arriving from the UK with illegal red diesel in their tanks even though they had proof duty had been paid on the propulsion part (60/40 split).

 

The RYA has raised the issue with the EU, but the commission has announced that it is to take legal action against the UK for implementing the directive incorrectly. This may take years though

But it is impossible to prove that the duty was paid on the red diesel in the tank. All the boater could provide was a receipt for some red diesel he bought. It may or may not be that which was in his tank at the time the Dutch pulled him over.

[nb Innisfree]

In WW2 Churchill gave permission for canal boats to use red duty free as they were contributing to the war effort so on that basis I can't see us hanging on to it indefinitely.

[luctor et emergo]

Why bring the Dutch into it?

[furnessvale]

In WW2 Churchill gave permission for canal boats to use red duty free as they were contributing to the war effort so on that basis I can't see us hanging on to it indefinitely.

 

At the risk of reopening an old debate, why have pleasure boats been singled out to pay full duty?

 

If I want to play with an old vehicle off road I can use red diesel (provided I do not want to also go on road with it at a later stage). If I want to play in an old army tank, burning one mpg and issuing clouds of black smoke, I can use red diesel. Any other pleasure use of diesel off road can use red diesel EXCEPT boats, why? (apart from the obvious answer that Europe won't let us)

 

George ex nb Alton retired

Edited August 21, 2011 by furnessvale

[nb Innisfree]

At the risk of reopening an old debate, why have pleasure boats been singled out to pay full duty?

 

If I want to play with an old vehicle off road I can use red diesel (provided I do not want to also go on road with it at a later stage). If I want to play in an old army tank, burning one mpg and issuing clouds of black smoke, I can use red diesel. Any other pleasure use of diesel off road can use red diesel EXCEPT boats, why? (apart from the obvious answer that Europe won't let us)

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

I assume it wasn't allowed pre WW2, maybe canals were considered a transport link the same as roads?

[scrumpylurcher]

Same cetane rating though as far as I am aware though trying to ensure fame free is a bit of a lottery at the moment.

 

Not sure about this but I think certain segments of the marine trade will be allowed to use high sulphur diesel via a special licence?

I would agree, and even go as far as to say that it is and will continue to be impossible to GUARANTEE that you are buying FAME free deisel.

[carlt]

Why bring the Dutch into it?

In the Netherlands, if your vessel is on their equivalent of the National Register of Historic Vessels, they can still use red diesel at the lower duty rate...

 

What a sensible bunch they are.

[Tim]

I also think that our days with a tax concession on diesel are numbered. We will all be paying full tax for white diesel in the not too distant!

[station tug]

I also think that our days with a tax concession on diesel are numbered. We will all be paying full tax for white diesel in the not too distant!

 

and there will be blood running into the canal when it happens!!!... thefts of deisel have gone up over the last few years on farms..farmers have increased security and the thieves have upped there game..wait untill there are boats tied up in the middle of no were full of lovely white diesel..im shocked the scum bags havnt cottoned onto large floating tanks of fuel already..its only a matter of time.....sad days.......

[ditchcrawler]

and there will be blood running into the canal when it happens!!!... thefts of deisel have gone up over the last few years on farms..farmers have increased security and the thieves have upped there game..wait untill there are boats tied up in the middle of no were full of lovely white diesel..im shocked the scum bags havnt cottoned onto large floating tanks of fuel already..its only a matter of time.....sad days.......

They have, I lost the best part of a tank full 200 lts about 6 years ago at Napton.