Cheap Engine Oil

[David Schweizer]

The Daytona oil from B&Q has not even been mentioned in this thread until now.

 

Priced at £10.98 for 4.5 litres, that works out at £12.20 per litre for an oil where you are told nothing apart from what API spec it conforms to,, and which it has been suggested may be re-manufactured using previously discarded oil.

 

If bought as a 25 litre container the Golden Film oil from Morris works out at 15.72 per litre. The chandlery price of a single can is generally around £20, but it is sometimes discounted.

 

Assuming the bulk buy, the saving on 5 litres is just £3.52, or around 22%, so unless you are a high engine hours user doing in excess of 3 oil changes a year, then the tenner saved doesn't sound worth it to me, when you have the choice between an oil specifically blended for use in older engines, (remembering that the original post specifically mentioned the BMC!), or one that is clearly being sold principally to go in petrol lawnmowers.

 

Many people doing an oil change on a BMC, (at risk of returning to original post again!), would find the 4.5 litres in a B&Q can not enough, so their initial purchase would be more expensive than 5 litres of Morris, as they would need to buy litres, anyway. My oil changes need more than 4.5 litres, but 5 litres is enough.

 

Bringing us again back to original post, would you be happy to use the Wilko oil that doesn't have a spec on the container, because someone phoned someone, who phoned someone else, and they said it was OK ? Personally I wouldn't touch it.

 

I think you mean £15.72 per 5 litre. otherwise it would be very expensive.

 

 

Try a large horticultural/agricultural merchants. If you can get it for £15/5L I doubt you'll get much better than that.

 

If the engine can use SE/CC that should widen your choice a little.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Is that for Morris oil, or another well known branded oil? I will have a look next time I am at our local Agricultural merchants.

 

They are certainly much cheaper for Oil and Fuel filters, although I have to order the oil filters in now, as they no longer keep the Leyland 1500 one in stock.

[mayalld]

Sorry Dave. but until Churshward pointed out that not all oils are of the same quality despite carrying the same API, the API reference was the intelectual basis of your argument.

 

Now that it has been demonstrated that the API only represents the quality of the additives and the viscosity, your argument is based soley on opinion.

 

You may be correct but, until you can marshall some evidence to support your opinion, I would stop digging.

 

The point is that the most information that you can have about an oil is it's API spec and viscosity.

 

Whilst I would stay clear of an oil that doesn't show an API spec, it remains the case that if you have two oils which show viscosity and API spec, then which is the better oil is simply a matter of opinion.

 

It seems to me that some people are leaping to an assumption that the more expensive oil is better.

[David Schweizer]

The point is that the most information that you can have about an oil is it's API spec and viscosity.

 

Whilst I would stay clear of an oil that doesn't show an API spec, it remains the case that if you have two oils which show viscosity and API spec, then which is the better oil is simply a matter of opinion.

 

It seems to me that some people are leaping to an assumption that the more expensive oil is better.

Who is leaping?

 

I am making a considered decision based on the information available to me. I have known Morris Oils for decades, they have a much respected reputation in the Vintage and Steam vehicle community, and they are very helpful with technical advice when contacted. I doubt whether B&Q or Wilko could match that reputation. Morris oil has also been the favoured brand in the trade for years, why would they use an expensive oil if a cheaper one would do the same job?

 

I cannot understand why people are so cheapskate when it comes to maintaining their boats which are generally worth a great deal more than their car. How much did you pay for oil when your car was last servicerd, and did you grumble about it, or just pay up? I had mine serviced yesterday, £39 fo five litres of VW oil.

Edited August 20, 2010 by David Schweizer

[mayalld]

Who is leaping?

 

I am making a considered decision based on the information available to me. I have known Morris Oils for decades, they have a much respected reputation in the Vintage and Steam vehicle community, and they are very helpful with technical advice when contacted. I doubt whether B&Q or Wilko could match that reputation. Morris oil has also been the favoured brand in the trade for years, why would they use an expensive oil if a cheaper one would do the same job?

 

I don't imagine that they would use an expensive oil when a cheaper one would do the job.

 

I could imagine that if you are selling a "speciality" product, cost price and selling price become decoupled.

 

The kind of oil that boat engines need used to be run of the mill, and inexpensive. The oils that are now run of the mill used to be the premium products next to them on the shelf.

 

All that has changed is that API-CC oils aren't stocked by many places any more, so those that sell them attach a premium for rarity, not for the base cost of the oil.

 

B&Q aren't selling own-brand oil, they are selling Carlube Daytona oil. So far as I can see, carlube are a reputable company, and there is no suggestion (other than from you) that this is remanufactured oil.

[WotEver]

B&Q aren't selling own-brand oil, they are selling Carlube Daytona oil. So far as I can see, carlube are a reputable company, and there is no suggestion (other than from you) that this is remanufactured oil.

From the Daytona page of the Carlube site:

Carlube Daytona is a top quality 20w50 motor oil, engineered to give maximum grade protection through all temperature conditions from cold start to high speed motorway driving.

 

Carlube Daytona is suitable for petrols and diesel engines. This oil is not suitable for turbo-charged engines.

 

Specifications: API SE/CC

 

Tony

[rgreg]

http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/scripts/...p;idProduct=368

 

Just bought some of this at Midland Chandlers. £18.86 for 5 ltrs

[smileypete]

Is that for Morris oil, or another well known branded oil? I will have a look next time I am at our local Agricultural merchants.

For a straight SAE30 oil eg:(clicky)

 

According to the Morris website it's API SF/CC.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited August 20, 2010 by smileypete

[mayalld]

http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/scripts/...p;idProduct=368

 

Well, that does it, I'm convinced.

 

It has a Narrowboat in front of the Union Flag. With such stylish packaging, and such marketing speak, how could anybody dare suggest that any other oil is even close to it in quality.

[rgreg]

Well, that does it, I'm convinced.

 

It has a Narrowboat in front of the Union Flag. With such stylish packaging, and such marketing speak, how could anybody dare suggest that any other oil is even close to it in quality.

 

I'm sure many are equal or even better. It appealed to me because it was specifically for canal boats at a sensible price from a reputable manufacturer. Maybe it's worth it, maybe not. Who knows.

[Nickhlx]

I'm sure many are equal or even better. It appealed to me because it was specifically for canal boats at a sensible price from a reputable manufacturer. Maybe it's worth it, maybe not. Who knows.

 

 

I also have used this - seems ideal for mine and have used their oils in bike engines for years - the club also use Morris oils and products for all their servicing and get through loads of oil ( 2 or 3 sump changes most days, which at over 4 litres a time is a lot of oil over a year)... with never a problem...

 

Nick

[alan_fincher]

Well, that does it, I'm convinced.

 

It has a Narrowboat in front of the Union Flag. With such stylish packaging, and such marketing speak, how could anybody dare suggest that any other oil is even close to it in quality.

 

Dave,

 

How much oil a year do you actually use ?

 

What do you use in practice, and what does it actually cost you ?

 

Are you prepared to say what you think the total cost of ownership of the boat is for a year ?

[steelaway]

I am abit confused.

 

Are you buying cheap oil at an expensive price or are you buying expensive oil because it is a better quality oil for the engine?

This CC grade was superseded many years ago by many modern oils, you can also buy much higher quality oils - cheaper.

It seems you are buying this low grade 'Narrowboat' oil now because your engines need it, allegedly to aviod a glazing problem through low teperatures and light loads.

This probably means the bores are not being lubricated properly and will wear out quicker!

Then why are you paying top price for a cheap grade of oil even though your engine doesn't need it?

Buy cheap oil, its every bit as good as this low grade Morris stuff - even if they do market it as 'Narrowboat' oil.

They are laughing all the way to the bank.

IMHO - The CF/CG spec (cheap as chip oil) is a better oil than any CC grades

 

 

Alex

[n.b.Goldie]

I am abit confused.

 

Are you buying cheap oil at an expensive price or are you buying expensive oil because it is a better quality oil for the engine?

This CC grade was superseded many years ago by many modern oils, you can also buy much higher quality oils - cheaper.

It seems you are buying this low grade 'Narrowboat' oil now because your engines need it, allegedly to aviod a glazing problem through low teperatures and light loads.

This probably means the bores are not being lubricated properly and will wear out quicker!

Then why are you paying top price for a cheap grade of oil even though your engine doesn't need it?

Buy cheap oil, its every bit as good as this low grade Morris stuff - even if they do market it as 'Narrowboat' oil.

They are laughing all the way to the bank.

IMHO - The CF/CG spec (cheap as chip oil) is a better oil than any CC grades

 

 

Alex

When I had a BMC motor I was advised by the Lockhart bros (boys in blue) at Milton Keynes marina to buy the cheapest oil I could get cos the demands made on it by use on the canal just does not justify a 'quality oil'.

 

When I dumped the BMC for a Beta Marine I queried the advice in the handbook and was given similar (verbal) advice by Beta. Only rider was to avoid oil suitable for turbos.

[bottle]

We can discuss infinitum about the merits of value, grades of oil etc. but engineering and oils move on.

 

Years ago Beta recommended API:CC they now state in their manuals API:CF.

 

Those with 'older' engines that were recommended to use API:CC should check with their engine manufacturer (if possible) whether the more recent grades are suitable. Personally (and this not a recommendation) I believe they are backward compatible but am willing to be corrected.

 

or stick with what they know.

 

There will be no definitive answer for years to come because it will take years of testing to find out.

 

Nobody is wrong in their choice whether cheap and cheerful or expensive and....

 

ps. I am about to put Halfords own non turbo diesel 15w40 oil (API:CF) in my year old engine, If I remember I'll pop back and let you know how it goes, in about ten years maybe sooner, because I will probably stick with it .

[n.b.Goldie]

ps. I am about to put Halfords own non turbo diesel 15w40 oil (API:CF) in my year old engine, If I remember I'll pop back and let you know how it goes, in about ten years maybe sooner, because I will probably stick with it .

 

Please can you tell me the product info, when I last visited my local (Bletchley) Halfords I could not find any non-turbo oil!

[alan_fincher]

Please can you tell me the product info, when I last visited my local (Bletchley) Halfords I could not find any non-turbo oil!

This one, I guess.....

 

Halfords non-turbo diesel oil.

 

 

Those with 'older' engines that were recommended to use API:CC should check with their engine manufacturer (if possible) whether the more recent grades are suitable. Personally (and this not a recommendation) I believe they are backward compatible but am willing to be corrected.

 

I am persuaded they are not, which is why I specifically look out an API-CC oil for my BMC, (and would if I had a Lister of similar age).

 

Of course there are many opinions on this, but when I attended Tony Brooks Diesel Engine Maintenance course his comments persuaded me not to use a "higher" API specced oil in this engine - I trust him as one of the more experienced names on boat engines.

 

I haven't checked recently, but certainly only a short while back HMI Isuzu had fairly strong recommendations about what to use in theoir engines, and I don't think that Halfords oil would have been accepted.

 

At £17 it's hardly cheap, anyway, (although I admit easy to find if you are travelling around....)

[journeyperson]

This one, I guess.....

 

Halfords non-turbo diesel oil.

 

Interesting that it says on the label it's suitable for engines built from the mid 80s to the early 90s and is CF grade.

[PhilR]

I am abit confused.

 

Are you buying cheap oil at an expensive price or are you buying expensive oil because it is a better quality oil for the engine?

This CC grade was superseded many years ago by many modern oils, you can also buy much higher quality oils - cheaper.

It seems you are buying this low grade 'Narrowboat' oil now because your engines need it, allegedly to aviod a glazing problem through low teperatures and light loads.

This probably means the bores are not being lubricated properly and will wear out quicker!

Then why are you paying top price for a cheap grade of oil even though your engine doesn't need it?

Buy cheap oil, its every bit as good as this low grade Morris stuff - even if they do market it as 'Narrowboat' oil.

They are laughing all the way to the bank.

IMHO - The CF/CG spec (cheap as chip oil) is a better oil than any CC grades

 

 

Alex

 

You may be correct, but I don't have an oil filter on my Lister. Maybe it might be a good idea to fit one and use the CF grades? Apart from bore glazing issues, a lot of posts on this subject seem to recommend CC grade on the basis of whether the additives hold the cr*p in suspension or allow it to be caught by the filter.

 

I am happy to continue using either Morris's SAE 30 or Lister 10/40 API CC. The engine has been happy with that for 34 years. How long does a modern Japanese engine last on higher spec oil?

[bottle]

Please can you tell me the product info, when I last visited my local (Bletchley) Halfords I could not find any non-turbo oil!

 

See Alan's post below, that's the one

 

 

This one, I guess.....

 

Halfords non-turbo diesel oil.

 

 

 

 

I am persuaded they are not, which is why I specifically look out an API-CC oil for my BMC, (and would if I had a Lister of similar age).

 

Of course there are many opinions on this, but when I attended Tony Brooks Diesel Engine Maintenance course his comments persuaded me not to use a "higher" API specced oil in this engine - I trust him as one of the more experienced names on boat engines.

 

I haven't checked recently, but certainly only a short while back HMI Isuzu had fairly strong recommendations about what to use in theoir engines, and I don't think that Halfords oil would have been accepted.

 

At £17 it's hardly cheap, anyway, (although I admit easy to find if you are travelling around....)

 

Alan you are doing the correct thing, as far as you know, I would not try to persuade you otherwise and for your engine API:CC was recommended, so it makes sense. Beta recomend API:CF (now) for mine so I will use that.

 

I didn't buy it for its price but the convenience as you say.

 

 

Interesting that it says on the label it's suitable for engines built from the mid 80s to the early 90s and is CF grade.

 

Maybe because at that time turbo's were rare. I guess.

[Tony Brooks]

This one, I guess.....

 

Halfords non-turbo diesel oil.

 

 

 

 

I am persuaded they are not, which is why I specifically look out an API-CC oil for my BMC, (and would if I had a Lister of similar age).

 

Of course there are many opinions on this, but when I attended Tony Brooks Diesel Engine Maintenance course his comments persuaded me not to use a "higher" API specced oil in this engine - I trust him as one of the more experienced names on boat engines.

 

I haven't checked recently, but certainly only a short while back HMI Isuzu had fairly strong recommendations about what to use in theoir engines, and I don't think that Halfords oil would have been accepted.

 

At £17 it's hardly cheap, anyway, (although I admit easy to find if you are travelling around....)

 

 

Just to clarify this statement and my position:

 

Whilst trying to research this topic Lister Petter kindly sent me a technical report into bore glazing and in so far as it relate to anything we could do about it said that the size of the oil additive pack seemed to be implicated.

 

My understanding is that with non-synthetic oils the higher the API spec the larger the additive pack so it seemed prudent to recommend that boaters stick with the API spec originally recommended for their engines.

 

This is PRECAUTIONARY rather than proven fact and I have been experimenting with API CE & CF in the Bukh, so far with no apparent ill effects but as Bottle says do not expect results any time soon.

 

As far as basic lubrication is concerned I am, sure any API spec oil will be more than adequate for canal use. The additives seek to improve a number of characteristics some of which affect the oils useful life.

 

As far as modern engines are concerned Trevor, the boss of RCR, says when they are used on plant on building sites they are often left idling all day and then suddenly revved up and worked hard and the higher API spec oils they use do no harm and do not seem to cause bore glazing. My colleague at TVU says that the when he worked at the gas board the on call engineers used to sit in their J4s with the engine ticking over all nigh to keep the heater working and they did run into massive bore glazing problems on the engines (BMC 1.5s).

 

I am sure the majority of us can use the easily obtainable modern oils with no apparent problems but some just might end up requiring expensive de-glazing work and we do not know who those "some" will be.

 

The need for (say) API CC oil is precautionary rather than proven fact.

[alan_fincher]

Alan you are doing the correct thing, as far as you know, I would not try to persuade you otherwise and for your engine API:CC was recommended, so it makes sense. Beta recomend API:CF (now) for mine so I will use that.

I would have no hesitation using that oil in your engine, based on what Beta say.

 

In fact, I bought some myself early on, but was persuaded not to use it in my BMC. No loss, as it was totally suitable for my PRM gearbox, and over time it all got used in oil changes on there, (all gone now!).

 

I have yet to find a source of a suitable API-CC oil that saves me very much over the discounted price of the Morris oils, that I am convinced by the quality of. Apparently, we are told, there is no requirement to tell you it contains re-manufactured oil on the packaging, so I will not use any of the cheap "own brands" without that re-assurance. I simply cannot imagine that oil is "as good" even if it meets an API-spec. I have yet to find a B&Q that actually has that Daytona oil on the shelf, in the 4.5 litres, (have seen 1 litres), but as it's no huge saving, I don't think I'd bother anyway now.

[bottle]

In fact, I bought some myself early on, but was persuaded not to use it in my BMC.

 

Exactly and if I had on older engine that was recommended a certain grade that is what I would use.

 

Simple really, the only problem then is to choose the oil manufacturer.

 

been here before

[Albion]

Tony said

snipped

 

As far as modern engines are concerned Trevor, the boss of RCR, says when they are used on plant on building sites they are often left idling all day and then suddenly revved up and worked hard and the higher API spec oils they use do no harm and do not seem to cause bore glazing. My colleague at TVU says that the when he worked at the gas board the on call engineers used to sit in their J4s with the engine ticking over all night to keep the heater working and they did run into massive bore glazing problems on the engines (BMC 1.5s).

 

That's an interesting illustration Tony of the apparent enigma in this situation and is, apparently, contradictory to the opinions being put forward by many in this discussion. Industrial engines, abused, neglected and idling all day, running high spec oils appear not to have a problem. Old BMCs, that in the days of J4s would have been running low spec oils changed at relatively short intervals compared to today, did suffer bore glazing. Could it be more to do with the closer tolerances, finer finishes and better materials involved in modern engine manufacture and the tougher, more robust, design of industrial diesels (compared to automotive) than the spec of the oil used? Interesting but I wonder if we'll ever get to a definitive answer on this.

Roger

Edited August 21, 2010 by Albion

[David Schweizer]

Exactly and if I had on older engine that was recommended a certain grade that is what I would use.

 

Simple really, the only problem then is to choose the oil manufacturer.

 

been here before

And that is the problem. All the suggested sources of cheaper oil have been rated higher than CC API.

 

Apart from Morris Oils, the only other branded 30SAE oil I have been able to locate with a CC API rating is Castrol Classic and that costs about £22 for a Gallon can (yes they actually refer to it as a Gallon can)

[steamraiser2]

I am still astonished at the continued obsession with cheap engine oil on this forum. Narrowboats are a significant financial commitment and to risk the long term health of your engine for a "haapeth of tar" is beyond me. I have a marine engine business and see the result of skimping on oil quality time and again. We regularly strip engines from commercial fishing boats that have done thousands of hours of seriously hard work and usually find them clean inside, a testament to decent oil. On the other hand if you want to see an engine that is sludged , tarred up and glazed take a peek at a narrowboat engine that poodles along on cheap oil..save a shilling spend a lot. On the other hand....... I have a hankering for a new tug and therefore highly recommend that you use as much supermarket recycled rubbish as you can buy!