council tax

[Henhouse]

Would have CCers had to poll tax though, giving they don't have any land based property.

 

 

If they had no property then No.

 

If they owned a property which was rented to someone else, the tennant(s) would have been liable.

 

If they owned a property which was left empty, they would have had to pay poll tax.

[Natalie Graham]

I'll try again.

 

The Council tax is not a charge or payment to use services. It is a property-based tax levied on the residents of domestic properties levied to raise finance for local authorities. If you live in a qualifying property you are liable for the tax, if you don't then you are not. Business rates, levied on business premises, also provides revenue for local authorities. Would anyone suggest everyone should pay business rates if they did not have business premises, or income tax if they have no income, or road tax if they don't have a car?

[PhilR]

We always get back to the old chestnuts on this topic.

 

Local authority funding comes from: Council Tax, Business Rates, Central Government funding + Government grants.

 

If we look at the domestic element (Council Tax), this was originally Domestic Rating (based on a hypothetical rental value of a residential property). This was replaced by the Community Charge (Poll Tax) and then replaced by the Council Tax (banded on the capital value of a residence at a specified valuation date).

 

All three of these domestic taxes/rates were applicable to the *occupation* of *landed property* Taxing the occupation of landed property is relatively cheap to administer and difficult to avoid, which is why it has never been replaced by a more equitable system. The system took no account of *ability to pay* apart from rebate schemes which covered rent and rates.

 

I don't want to get drawn into an argument about who should/shouldn't pay what, but anyone living on a boat without a land based property should accept that they are enjoying local/regional facilities and water very cheaply.

[bag 'o' bones]

Whats the score with boaters and council tax, who's paying it, and whos not ?

 

i'm a constant cruiser and the council have had the balls to invent an address for me, and bill me for £800 !! (which they are not getting.)

 

The question remains. Where did the coucil send your bill?

[cotswoldsman]

the point is that CCer dont pay any council tax where ever they are which I think its wrong. They should pay some sort of tax like the rest of us.

 

I wish you would not assume that CCers do not pay council tax.

 

 

Have you a house as well?

Sue

 

Yes. Is that allowed or should I now be banned from being a CCer?

 

 

That's the point.

 

Council tax is a property based tax. Charged to the owner or tennant of the property. Regardless of how many people are living in it.

 

Not quite right I pay council tax on a property that has been empty for 3 years. I do get a reduction for it being empty.

 

 

All three of these domestic taxes/rates were applicable to the *occupation* of *landed property* Taxing the occupation of landed property is relatively cheap to administer and difficult to avoid, which is why it has never been replaced by a more equitable system. The system took no account of *ability to pay* apart from rebate schemes which covered rent and rates.

 

I don't want to get drawn into an argument about who should/shouldn't pay what, but anyone living on a boat without a land based property should accept that they are enjoying local/regional facilities and water very cheaply.

 

You also have to pay council tax on an empty property, and that comes into two bands you pay less council tax if there is no furniture in an empty house than if you take all the furniture out.

[sueb]

I wish you would not assume that CCers do not pay council tax.

 

 

 

 

Yes. Is that allowed or should I now be banned from being a CCer?

 

 

 

Snipped.

No you can join my club.

Sue

[Albert Smith]

i'm a constant cruiser and the council have had the balls to invent an address for me, and bill me for £800 !! (which they are not getting.)

 

Presumably the address was your last land based abode, unless you advise the council otherwise then you will continue to be billed for Council tax. Should you not advise them, you will be taken to court (in your absence) for the sum involved. If you still fail to respond, the matter will be passed to the Baliff who will seize your assets (your boat). You really need to contact the Council that sent the bill and sort it out.

 

Albert.

[Natalie Graham]

anyone living on a boat without a land based property should accept that they are enjoying local/regional facilities and water very cheaply.

 

Really? I'm not sure I agree. Looking at the figures I think they may be paying a disproportionate amount. Not wanting to spend too long on looking for statistics the latest government the figures I found are from 2002-2003 so not up to date but I doubt the general proportions have changed significantly.

 

Council Tax makes up just 16% of local government revenue. Central Government grants, i.e. general taxation, accounts for 45%, business rates 16%, rental income and charges for services 12% and "other" makes up the remaining 11%. So discounting possible differences between overall contribution to the other sectors between live-aboard continuous cruisers and the rest of the population, then the live-aboard continuous cruiser would need to be able to access and use 84% of council services to be getting equal value from those services.

 

When you look at expenditure, then the biggest sector is education at 31.7%. I would have thought it reasonable to assume that for most people, continuously cruising, within the guidelines set down by BW, would preclude having children attending a local authority school, or themselves attending a further education college. So the majority at least of this 31.7% of local authority expenditure is on something that is not accessible to a continuous cruiser. That is the 16% council tax contribution right there. However, transport accounts for 7.1% of which 4.2% is on roads. Disregarding those very few individuals who crane aboard a small car then that is another area of expenditure which is of little use to the continuous cruiser. Housing makes up 15% of local authority expenditure. That one is pretty much self-explanatory and again, by itself, almost equals the level of income to local authorities from the Council Tax. Equally so, Social Services at 15.7%. Again this is a service of which the continuous cruisers are going to be able to make little or no use of, since access to those services will generally require an individual to be resident within the local authority area."Cultural, Environmental and Planning" is the other major sector at 10.7%. I think this is the area which will most benefit continuous cruisers with the exception of the planning segment. The Police and fire services, which were cited earlier in the thread come in at 8.6% and 1.8%.

 

The home help is not likely to follow you along the towpath to empty your lavatory cassette and change the gas bottles. If the Continuous cruiser puts their rubbish out on bin day does the lorry come and empty it? What is the reaction in the library if they say they will take the books back to whatever library they might be nearest to in three weeks time?

 

Overall, it would appear that, for the 16% reduction in expenditure provided by the non-Council Tax paying continuous cruiser, the value of the services they cannot access is a much greater proportion of the total. I do not believe the argument that the continuous cruiser is getting services they are not contributing to stands up.

[BlueStringPudding]

the point is that CCer dont pay any council tax where ever they are which I think its wrong. They should pay some sort of tax like the rest of us.

 

Why? Council tax helps pay towards refuse collection, cemetries, housing, schools, swimming pools, and more councils! I don't use any of those services. I pay BW instead. That's my council tax.

 

Meanwhile I work for a living and pay all the other taxes associated with that. I pay VAT on things I buy. I contribute to the tax systems plenty! But certainly not council tax. (And having worked with various branches of the local councils and seen how they haemmorrage money that could be better prioritised elsewhere I wouldn't want to pay them for that anwyay. Another free catered conference, anyone? Or how about gallons of free plonk at the local museum to lubricate a bit of pointless "networking"?)

[MrCJ]

some of you are not seeing the point unless CCers just sit on there boats and never leave the towpath and if thats the case then ok no dont pay anything. But if they do leave their boat and towpath they all will at some point use items/services that council tax pays towards.

 

As I said before why do some people believe they have the right to something for free.

[WotEver]

some of you are not seeing the point...

On the contrary, it is YOU who is missing the point. Re-read Natalie's post #33 posted around 2 hours before you wrote this.

 

Tony

[Smelly]

and where's the OP in all this I wonder

[WotEver]

and where's the OP in all this I wonder

[mrsmelly]

I'll try again.

 

The Council tax is not a charge or payment to use services. It is a property-based tax levied on the residents of domestic properties levied to raise finance for local authorities. If you live in a qualifying property you are liable for the tax, if you don't then you are not. Business rates, levied on business premises, also provides revenue for local authorities. Would anyone suggest everyone should pay business rates if they did not have business premises, or income tax if they have no income, or road tax if they don't have a car?

Very well put, I think you covered it very well..............

 

some of you are not seeing the point unless CCers just sit on there boats and never leave the towpath and if thats the case then ok no dont pay anything. But if they do leave their boat and towpath they all will at some point use items/services that council tax pays towards.

 

As I said before why do some people believe they have the right to something for free.

Hammer and chisel anyone ?

[cotswoldsman]

Really? I'm not sure I agree. Looking at the figures I think they may be paying a disproportionate amount. Not wanting to spend too long on looking for statistics the latest government the figures I found are from 2002-2003 so not up to date but I doubt the general proportions have changed significantly.

 

Council Tax makes up just 16% of local government revenue. Central Government grants, i.e. general taxation, accounts for 45%, business rates 16%, rental income and charges for services 12% and "other" makes up the remaining 11%. So discounting possible differences between overall contribution to the other sectors between live-aboard continuous cruisers and the rest of the population, then the live-aboard continuous cruiser would need to be able to access and use 84% of council services to be getting equal value from those services.

 

When you look at expenditure, then the biggest sector is education at 31.7%. I would have thought it reasonable to assume that for most people, continuously cruising, within the guidelines set down by BW, would preclude having children attending a local authority school, or themselves attending a further education college. So the majority at least of this 31.7% of local authority expenditure is on something that is not accessible to a continuous cruiser. That is the 16% council tax contribution right there. However, transport accounts for 7.1% of which 4.2% is on roads. Disregarding those very few individuals who crane aboard a small car then that is another area of expenditure which is of little use to the continuous cruiser. Housing makes up 15% of local authority expenditure. That one is pretty much self-explanatory and again, by itself, almost equals the level of income to local authorities from the Council Tax. Equally so, Social Services at 15.7%. Again this is a service of which the continuous cruisers are going to be able to make little or no use of, since access to those services will generally require an individual to be resident within the local authority area."Cultural, Environmental and Planning" is the other major sector at 10.7%. I think this is the area which will most benefit continuous cruisers with the exception of the planning segment. The Police and fire services, which were cited earlier in the thread come in at 8.6% and 1.8%.

 

The home help is not likely to follow you along the towpath to empty your lavatory cassette and change the gas bottles. If the Continuous cruiser puts their rubbish out on bin day does the lorry come and empty it? What is the reaction in the library if they say they will take the books back to whatever library they might be nearest to in three weeks time?

 

Overall, it would appear that, for the 16% reduction in expenditure provided by the non-Council Tax paying continuous cruiser, the value of the services they cannot access is a much greater proportion of the total. I do not believe the argument that the continuous cruiser is getting services they are not contributing to stands up.

 

very well put and researched thank you.

You can return a book to any library in the same county will become more difficult as libraries are closed due to funding crisis.

 

some of you are not seeing the point unless CCers just sit on there boats and never leave the towpath and if thats the case then ok no dont pay anything. But if they do leave their boat and towpath they all will at some point use items/services that council tax pays towards.

 

As I said before why do some people believe they have the right to something for free.

 

Think maybe you are missing the point!! As a CCer the main reason I leave my boat is to spend money in a local area thereby contributing to the local economy helping local business's pay there business rates and helping with local employment. When I want water and to get rid of my rubbish I use BW to whom I pay a fee every year.

 

 

No you can join my club.

Sue

 

Thank you, but no thanks not very good at joining clubs and societies as sometimes they don't agree with me.

[WotEver]

Thank you, but no thanks not very good at joining clubs and societies as sometimes they don't agree with me.

"I refuse to belong to any club that will have me as a member" Groucho Marx

 

He also said "I never forget a face, but in your case I'll be glad to make an exception" but that's not important right now...

 

Tony

[carlt]

"I refuse to belong to any club that will have me as a member" Groucho Marx

I believe it was Groucho Marx who also said:

 

"I'm going to join a club and beat you over the head with it."

[Smelly]

"I'm going to join a club and beat you over the head with it."

 

This one?

[Henhouse]

some of you are not seeing the point unless CCers just sit on there boats and never leave the towpath and if thats the case then ok no dont pay anything. But if they do leave their boat and towpath they all will at some point use items/services that council tax pays towards.

 

As I said before why do some people believe they have the right to something for free.

 

 

 

They are not getting something for free. If you don't own or rent a property you have no obligation to pay.

 

There are plenty more who don't have to pay either;

 

Gypsies / Travellers, Travelling Showmen, Fairground Operaters, Tramps, and the Homeless.

[NB Alnwick]

They are not getting something for free. If you don't own or rent a property you have no obligation to pay.

 

There are plenty more who don't have to pay either;

 

Gypsies / Travellers, Travelling Showmen, Fairground Operaters, Tramps, and the Homeless.

 

So which classification best fits the 'continuous cruiser'? I've always fancied myself as a 'Travelling Showman' . . .

[KeithL]

So which classification best fits the 'continuous cruiser'? I've always fancied myself as a 'Travelling Showman' . . .

does that mean you can ride about in an old truck with bald tyres. . Maybet thats just the showmans wagons ive seen at the dorset stean fair ;-)

[paulcatchpole]

So which classification best fits the 'continuous cruiser'? I've always fancied myself as a 'Travelling Showman' . . .

 

I can see you in something like this:

 

 

 

PC

[Henhouse]

does that mean you can ride about in an old truck with bald tyres. . Maybet thats just the showmans wagons ive seen at the dorset stean fair ;-)

 

 

 

Dorset Steam fair is not the place to go if you are not legal.

 

There are regular visits by HMRC checking for diesels running on Red. Including Tractors !!

 

The men from the Ministry of Transport also go on the offensive, especially at the checkpoints on the A31 and A35.

 

The police also make tours of all the campsites looking for stolen caravans. Four years ago they seized over 20

[CV32]

Dorset Steam fair is not the place to go if you are not legal.

 

There are regular visits by HMRC checking for diesels running on Red. Including Tractors !!

 

The men from the Ministry of Transport also go on the offensive, especially at the checkpoints on the A31 and A35.

 

The police also make tours of all the campsites looking for stolen caravans. Four years ago they seized over 20

 

 

Glad to hear it - thats what some of my council tax pays for ... so if you pay no council tax you should not get any help from the boys in blue when your boat gets burgled ... got me coat already !

[RLWP]

So which classification best fits the 'continuous cruiser'? I've always fancied myself as a 'Travelling Showman' . . .