Can you hand pump waste??

[luctor et emergo]

But then why did BWB first install Elsan disposal points? If people chose to have a different system than a galvanised bucket and an entrenching tool then it was up to them to find somewhere suitable to empty it and it was not BWB's responsibility to provide them with facilities to empty their new-fangled chemical toilets.

 

 

quite.

 

Lets return to the roots of narrow boating. A bucket in the engine room. And simply tip the contents overboard.

[carlt]

But then why did BWB first install Elsan disposal points? If people chose to have a different system than a galvanised bucket and an entrenching tool then it was up to them to find somewhere suitable to empty it and it was not BWB's responsibility to provide them with facilities to empty their new-fangled chemical toilets.

No but if they want to stop people doing something then they must provide an alternative.

 

If it was decided that cassettes were horrible things and everyone had to switch to pumpout then, in order to facilitate that change, the enhanced self pumpout facilities would have to be provided.

 

As this thread proves everything thats wrong about web forums......I'm off to actually cruise my boat!!!

"ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!!?"

[Natalie Graham]

No but if they want to stop people doing something then they must provide an alternative.

 

So if the want to stop people misusing the Elsan points as a free pump out disposal facility?

[luctor et emergo]

So if the want to stop people misusing the Elsan points as a free pump out disposal facility?

 

 

You can't argue that misuse means that it should be ok. That means that non boaters can argue that the canal should be used for tipping rubbish. (it's not meant for it, but as we want to , and already do it....)

[Natalie Graham]

You can't argue that misuse means that it should be ok.

 

 

You are right and I don't.

 

I was making the point that if people are making a mess of, blocking, or occupying Elsan points for long periods and this is felt to be contrary to the intended use of these facilities and BW feel they want to stop this then the logic of Carl's response to my earlier post, (from which I omitted the fabled tongue in cheek smiley) could be taken to suggest that the answer is to provide free facilities for pump-outs.

[carlt]

So if the want to stop people misusing the Elsan points as a free pump out disposal facility?

Like if we want people to stop going past moored boats too fast, BW should provide a separate "fast lane"?

[Naughty Cal]

Like if we want people to stop going past moored boats too fast, BW should provide a separate "fast lane"?

 

Yes please

[Nickhlx]

Yes please

 

 

Now why did I think you'd vote for that ???

 

Nick

[Natalie Graham]

Like if we want people to stop going past moored boats too fast, BW should provide a separate "fast lane"?

 

Well "if they want to stop people doing something then they must provide an alternative".

[sueb]

I'm also not sure of the point you are making Sue - again perhaps too early in the morning.

 

BW do seem to be providing an increased number of self-operated pump-out facilities - the one's unsurprisingly explicitly labelled as pump-out facilities.

 

They also provide facilities for emptying Elsans, very often labelled, for good reasons, as not suitable to do self-pump out into.

 

The sticking point seems to be whether people are prepared to pay for the latter, presumably why at some locations you will find people self pumping-out into Elsan facilities whilst the proper pump-out facility stands unused. The only reasons for that can be cost, surely - nobody would sit there pumping their own poo if a nice machine can do it for you instead, surely - other than as a cost saving exercise.

 

I still maintain I've not encountered that many BW sanitary stations that don't have signs prohibiting self pump-out. The popular, and al-fresco one at Braunston is an exception where it is allowed, and after a very unpleasant experience there after someone had, I still think it is a mistake to try and use these things for something they were never designed for.

 

Surely most people specifying a boat with pump-out know it is something that has always been something there is a charge for, since pump-out first started to appear, and it's a decision they take ? The fact that BW is increasingly providing the facility in addition to private concerns is surely an improvement to those with pump-out - something that was not always the case ?

 

Nobody usually needs to self-pump out on the canals for any other reason than cost saving, do they ?

 

I have been self pumping for over 20yrs. Well before the new fangled machines BW now provide. In those dim and distant days you could pump out at most elsan disposal points because they were regularly emptied. BW cut down on emptying the non connected elsans and provided the machines. It is almost impossible to buy the cards, recently made more difficult by the shorter office opening hours. There is no knowing how long the pump will work, or even if it will work at all. We do use them occasionally but we prefer to use our own pump.

Marina pump outs are just a quick empty and a one short rinse, if you are lucky and a £15 charge, no reduction if you don't want blue.

I have no desire to drag a heavy cassette to an elsan point every couple of days or have full tanks tripping me up.

 

As an aside where do northerners put their rubbish? We can't find any rubbish disposal points.

Sue

[mayalld]

To be responsive to the needs of its customers.

 

OK, fair enough.

 

BW should indeed respond to the increasing demand for facilities from its paying customers, and should start providing additional facilities for those who demand them.

 

Of course, the multi-tier licence system will be a bit of a pain at first, but they will surely get it sorted soon enough.

 

Put simply, self pump-out is a tiny minority, and it would be unjust to expect either cassette users or those who pay for pump-out to fund the additional infrastructure needed to allow a tiny number of tight-wads to continue spraying their crap around.

 

 

By law, a landlord must supply sanitary facilities and it must be included in the rent amount, not an additional cost.

If BW are locking certain points or not providing for the needs of pumpouts, this must be a breach of the law

 

Utter twaddle.

 

BW are not a landlord, and don't charge rent.

 

Please be aware that this forum does a really, really good line in nit-picking legal argument. Participation requires a good working knowledge, and making an elementary mistake like this is instant disqualification.

[Artimis]

Just as a point of interest, how much does a casette weigh and how far does it typically need carrying?

 

How does someone with a mobility problem empty a casette?

[alan_fincher]

Please be aware that this forum does a really, really good line in nit-picking legal argument. Participation requires a good working knowledge, and making an elementary mistake like this is instant disqualification.

Dave,

 

I mean this in all sincerity.

 

It's good to see you back, and, all things considered, in such good form too.

 

I can't explain why, but I've always particularly liked the word "twaddle" by the way.

[mayalld]

Just as a point of interest, how much does a casette weigh and how far does it typically need carrying?

 

How does someone with a mobility problem empty a casette?

 

A full cassette typically holds 17 litres of effluent.

 

Given the propensity of number-2s to float, we may assume that they are less dense than water, and that a cassette full of sewage weighs no more than a cassette full of water.

 

Allowing for the weight of the cassette itself, a full cassette weighs 20kg.

 

Typically, cassettes need to be carried a matter of 30 feet or less. and for those less able to carry a cassette, a folding trolley is ideal.

 

How does somebody with mobility problems deal with reeling out and re-stowing yards of pump-out hose BTW?

[Artimis]

A full cassette typically holds 17 litres of effluent.

 

Given the propensity of number-2s to float, we may assume that they are less dense than water, and that a cassette full of sewage weighs no more than a cassette full of water.

 

Allowing for the weight of the cassette itself, a full cassette weighs 20kg.

 

Typically, cassettes need to be carried a matter of 30 feet or less. and for those less able to carry a cassette, a folding trolley is ideal.

 

How does somebody with mobility problems deal with reeling out and re-stowing yards of pump-out hose BTW?

 

Dunno, you tell me. Also how does one get the folding trolley in and out, up and down the companionway? How does one lift the casette from the toilet onto the trolley?

[mayalld]

Dave,

 

I mean this in all sincerity.

 

It's good to see you back, and, all things considered, in such good form too.

 

I can't explain why, but I've always particularly liked the word "twaddle" by the way.

 

I shall use it often!

 

And thanks for the kind words.

 

The mind must be exercised, and as I am still off work, I am afraid that you guys are my mental exercise in between sessions of dealing with the inevitable paperwork that death brings with it.

 

The death of two guys that Harvey knew well last Friday knocked us back more than we could have imagined, but we are doing our absolute damndest to get our lives back on track, and that means that I have to get back to infuriating people just as I always did.

 

 

 

Dunno, you tell me. Also how does one get the folding trolley in and out, up and down the companionway? How does one lift the casette from the toilet onto the trolley?

 

Nobody has suggested that cassette toilets be compulsory.

 

I merely suggest that if you cannot cope with the physical demands of dealing with a cassette, you won't manage to SPO, and will have to use a paid-for PO machine.

 

Playing the disability card is not going to work here.

[Artimis]

Nobody has suggested that cassette toilets be compulsory.

 

I merely suggest that if you cannot cope with the physical demands of dealing with a cassette, you won't manage to SPO, and will have to use a paid-for PO machine.

 

Playing the disability card is not going to work here.

 

Certainly not playing a card, im not disabled, but everyone needs to be considered.

 

If PO machines dont work or are locked, where does that leave those who need them?

[carlt]

If PO machines dont work or are locked, where does that leave those who need them?

A back up portaloo is just as easy to stow as a self pumpout kit.

[Guest]

If PO machines dont work or are locked, where does that leave those who need them?

 

In the shit??

[mayalld]

Certainly not playing a card, im not disabled, but everyone needs to be considered.

 

If PO machines dont work or are locked, where does that leave those who need them?

 

Still in need of them.

 

However, I really can't see where your argument is going, and to be honest, I'm not sure that you are too clear on it either!

 

You seemed to be arguing that SPO facilities should be provided because some people can't carry cassettes, but now you seem to be adding that perhaps they can't carry cassettes, and perhaps all the self-serve machines and boatyard facilities are out of action.

 

The answer here is simple...

 

Forward planning!

 

If you fit a PO loo ensure that you get it emptied before you are in dire need.

[Artimis]

Still in need of them.

 

However, I really can't see where your argument is going, and to be honest, I'm not sure that you are too clear on it either!

 

You seemed to be arguing that SPO facilities should be provided because some people can't carry cassettes, but now you seem to be adding that perhaps they can't carry cassettes, and perhaps all the self-serve machines and boatyard facilities are out of action.

 

The answer here is simple...

 

Forward planning!

 

If you fit a PO loo ensure that you get it emptied before you are in dire need.

 

 

You seem to have got muddled there by saying the same thing twice.

 

So it seems the feeling is only one system should be provided for.

 

What if there was no petrol, only diesel on the forecourts, how handy would that be?

[mayalld]

You seem to have got muddled there by saying the same thing twice.

 

So it seems the feeling is only one system should be provided for.

 

What if there was no petrol, only diesel on the forecourts, how handy would that be?

 

I am not muddled at all.

 

I am repeating the phrase to emphasise the fact that once your single argument fell down, you came back with two different arguments bolted together, and they too fell down.

 

Yes, one (basic) system should be provided. If some people want another system, they must fund the necessary infrastructure for it (which the SPO brigade won't do, because one of the main drivers for SPO is paying nothing)

 

If there was only diesel on forecourts, most people wouldn't buy petrol cars. Thos who did would understand that their choice limited their fueling opportunities.

 

It is actually a good analogy to expand. There are still cars that need REAL leaded (not LRP) fuel to run. There are a mere handful of garages that sell it. Should all garages be made to sell it to cater for the tiny minority who use it?

[luctor et emergo]

You seem to have got muddled there by saying the same thing twice.

 

So it seems the feeling is only one system should be provided for.

What if there was no petrol, only diesel on the forecourts, how handy would that be?

 

A nonsensical argument. Both are widely used, and available. It would be better to use the example of LPG. I have an LPG car, but can only use limited fuel stations. It's no good shouting at the fuelstations that they 'must' provide an LPG filling facility. The driver makes the choice, based on his needs, and must work and plan with the available options.

 

And another thing. Perhaps they don't want people to SPO, because they can't be trusted not to get it wrong, and leave a massive mess behind.

 

And lets face it. It's all about not wanting to pay.

[Artimis]

SPOs already pay by purchasing a license, the same as casette users do, except casette users dont have to pay twice, once for the license and once to empty the loo.

 

Im playing devils advocate and find the dogmatic stance of the holier than thou casette users rather disapointing

[sueb]

I shall use it often!

 

And thanks for the kind words.

 

The mind must be exercised, and as I am still off work, I am afraid that you guys are my mental exercise in between sessions of dealing with the inevitable paperwork that death brings with it.

 

The death of two guys that Harvey knew well last Friday knocked us back more than we could have imagined, but we are doing our absolute damndest to get our lives back on track, and that means that I have to get back to infuriating people just as I always did.

 

 

 

 

 

Nobody has suggested that cassette toilets be compulsory.

 

I merely suggest that if you cannot cope with the physical demands of dealing with a cassette, you won't manage to SPO, and will have to use a paid-for PO machine.

 

Playing the disability card is not going to work here.

 

A self pump out kit is much lighter to cope with and to answer another post, with a self pumpout kit costing £100 + It isn't about getting something for free.

Sue