My eberspacher is officially dead!

[mchancox]

Sorry to be pedantic about this, but let me repeat once more in a slightly more specific way, that these heaters will run on red diesel, but will fail at much lower hours unless that red diesel is to the EN590 spec or higher. So it is quite correct to state that they will run on red diesel, but its is highly misleading and irresponsible not to state the specification standard for that red diesel. EN590 red diesel is low sulphur diesel which is readily available in service stations. It is highly irresponsible not to tell marine users that it generally unavailable at present on the inland waterways, and has been totally unavailable until comparatively recently.

 

Lets not forget that forum mamber Paul Sylvan's Webasto C Top failed after being run on red diesel which was not EN590, but was the only waterways available fuel. The subsequent court case found that the heater was 'Unsuitable for purpose'. That purpose was to use it as a heating system in a waterways environment where it was sold as suitable.

 

It is quite likely that if your heater fails early due to using non EN590 diesel, the reason you will be given is that the fuel was of a poor quality and below the reccommended spec.

 

Roger

Very interesting and accurate reply. I work with both Eberspacher and Webasto heaters and the Webasto are more reliable on the "Red Fuel" that is supplied at most boatyards.

Is the quality of fuel down to the boatyard owner trying to get cheap fuel and make more profit or the suppliers?

It is also worth noting that fuel goes off (Even Diesel) over time and this has an impact on the heaters performance. Clean good quality fuel is the answer but very hard to find on Inland Waterways!

 

As diesel gets older a fine sediment and gum forms in the diesel brought about by the reaction of diesel components with oxygen from the air. The fine sediment and gum will block fuel filters, leading to fuel starvation and the engine stopping. Frequent filter changes are then required to keep the engine going. The gums and sediments do not burn in the engine very well and can lead to carbon and soot deposits on injectors and other combustion surfaces.

The expected life of a diesel fuel is indicated by the oxidation stability test ASTM D2276. The test measures how much gum and sediment will be deposited after keeping the fuel at 120°C in the presence of oxygen for 16 hours. It roughly corresponds to one year storage at 25°C. A result of less than 20mg/L of sediment and gum after the test is considered acceptable for normal diesel.

ACCELERATED AGEING

The ageing process can be accelerated by the following conditions:-

• Contact with zinc, copper or metal alloys containing them. These metals will quickly react with diesel fuel to form unstable compounds.

• The presence of water. Water allows the growth of fungus and bacteria, these produce natural by-products such as organic acids which make the fuel unstable.

• Exposure to high temperatures.

• Exposure to dust and dirt which contain trace elements that can destabilise the fuel, such as copper and zinc.

• Fuel composition. Some components in diesel fuel naturally age quickly.

 

Food for thought!!

[dor]

Over the years I've viewed the threads on the unsuitability of diesel lorry heaters on boats with a certain amount of amusement. I've got an Alde 3010 gas boiler which has worked faultlessly for the last three years. People always say "but gas is so expensive" but the 3010 is much more efficient than the old upright 2928 gas boilers. Then, even if the running costs are a bit higher, it palls into insignificance when I hear of the servicing and repair costs of the ebers etc. So the diesel boiler saves you a pound or two on fuel a week, then you go and spend hundreds of pounds on servicing and repairs ...

 

The 3010 sits there under the bed, never fails to fire up and needs no servicing. And from what I am told about running costs of diesel heaters, not a lot more to run.

[nb Innisfree]

Over the years I've viewed the threads on the unsuitability of diesel lorry heaters on boats with a certain amount of amusement. I've got an Alde 3010 gas boiler which has worked faultlessly for the last three years. People always say "but gas is so expensive" but the 3010 is much more efficient than the old upright 2928 gas boilers. Then, even if the running costs are a bit higher, it palls into insignificance when I hear of the servicing and repair costs of the ebers etc. So the diesel boiler saves you a pound or two on fuel a week, then you go and spend hundreds of pounds on servicing and repairs ...

 

The 3010 sits there under the bed, never fails to fire up and needs no servicing. And from what I am told about running costs of diesel heaters, not a lot more to run.

 

I would love to have gas heating on our nb but as full time ccers it would be totally impractical in the winter, costs apart the storage space required just isn't available, that's why Ebers and the like are so common, nothing can compare with their compactness and cost, the only possible contender, Hurricane, also have their problems.

Edited May 12, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[WotEver]

... the only possible contender, Hurricane, also have their problems.

Really? I wasn't aware of that. I thought that Hurricane were the dog's wotsits. So what are their problems? (Not fuel again I hope)

 

Tony

[nb Innisfree]

Really? I wasn't aware of that. I thought that Hurricane were the dog's wotsits. So what are their problems? (Not fuel again I hope)

 

Tony

 

Posts on previous threads, don't ask me to quote!

[WotEver]

Posts on previous threads, don't ask me to quote!

I've been searching and found nothing but compliments. One poster observed that it's sensitive to low voltage, but so are they all, and it could have been under-sized cables. I can't find any other criticisms of them (apart from the price!).

 

If you stumble across a relevant thread I'd be interested in reading it.

 

Tony

Edited May 12, 2010 by WotEver

[paulcatchpole]

I would love to have gas heating on our nb but as full time ccers it would be totally impractical in the winter, costs apart the storage space required just isn't available.

 

I'll give you the hassle of obtaining the stuff, as well as possible storage issues...

 

Are you sure on the cost front?

 

Our condensing A-rated heat-only gas boiler will modulate from its 12kw max output down to 3kw as required, and is really quite efficient. Operating in normal winter boat conditions, it drops into condensing-mode almost immediately. A guess would suggest it averages 85-90% efficiency most of the time - how does that compare to an Eber?

 

PC

[nb Innisfree]

I'll give you the hassle of obtaining the stuff, as well as possible storage issues...

 

Are you sure on the cost front?

 

Our condensing A-rated heat-only gas boiler will modulate from its 12kw max output down to 3kw as required, and is really quite efficient. Operating in normal winter boat conditions, it drops into condensing-mode almost immediately. A guess would suggest it averages 85-90% efficiency most of the time - how does that compare to an Eber?

 

PC

 

Don't know but I know that LPG CH in a nb uses a lot of fuel, up to 13 kg in 3 days! ok that's an extreme example but they do gobble it up. Ebers etc are impractical as full time CH especially on the electrical front. Solid fuel can't be matched IMO

[nb Innisfree]

I've been searching and found nothing but compliments. One poster observed that it's sensitive to low voltage, but so are they all, and it could have been under-sized cables. I can't find any other criticisms of them (apart from the price!).

 

If you stumble across a relevant thread I'd be interested in reading it.

 

Tony

 

Well yes a voltage prob here

 

I recall a few posts from someone about hassle from them, can't find them unfortunately but I don't think they are the golden solution sometimes claimed, ok there have been good reports about them but there has been the same with Eber/webasto/Mikuni.

 

Edited to add:

 

One here from Blackrose

 

A friend in the marina has a 1 year old Hurricane which has just packed up. I'm not sure what the problem is but it was only a few years ago that the Hurricane was heralded as the ultra-reliable diesel heater, which unlike webastos, eberspachers and mikunis was designed specifically for boats and liveaboard use. My friend's Hurricane problems only add to my suspicion that all of these type diesel heaters are just toys - not for liveaboard use. The only diesel heaters that do seem reliable are the drip-fed type.

Edited May 12, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[WotEver]

Well yes a voltage prob here

 

I recall a few posts from someone about hassle from them, can't find them unfortunately but I don't think they are the golden solution sometimes claimed, ok there have been good reports about them but there has been the same with Eber/webasto/Mikuni.

 

Edited to add:

 

One here from Blackrose

Thanks for those

 

So... the search continues

[robkg]

We have all been following such cases for years. They are very well publicised on forums such as these. Which may well be where people get the idea that they are all unreliable and are all going to break down or fail.

 

It is a well known that that people make much more of a song and dance about items breaking than they do about items that are working and in good order. There are many people who run these heaters and have very few if any problems with them just as there are those that do have problems. To blanket state that they are no good for marine use is wrong, as there are many who happily use them and dont have an issue with them.

 

Ours, as an example, works fine on the same "poor quality" diesel that the engine works well with. The narrowboats in our are not allowed to use their solid fuel stoves within the marina so use diesel heating as their primary source. None of the owners we speak to have any problems with their sytems.

 

As i siad luck of the draw or properly thought out systems. We may never know.

Hi all,

Can I first put this one to bed.

In my considerable experience of Webasto problems, I have encountered only one authorised Webasto company that has any idea what they are talking about.

That company sells primarily into the offshore Yacht market. The owner of that business explained to me that whilst the air heaters had burners of sufficient size,

the water heaters did not, and that was the route of many of the problems.

He went on to tell me that he would not continue to sell Webasto water heaters into the marine market as they were "more trouble than they were worth".

Remember, this was an authorised main dealer talking!

So that is why your heater works Phylis.

 

 

You say that "To blanket state that they are no good for marine use is wrong"

I take issue with this as firstly, there appears to be considerable anecdotal evidence that many more people have problems with these heaters than any other single piece of equipment on this forum.

Secondly, Paul Sylvan successfully won a case against his supplier/installer of a Webasto heater with the judge finding the units unfit for purpose.

Thirdly, in my case, I took a main dealer to court over a Thermotop C that repeatedly failed and accepted a full refund plus costs offer from them (in court) four years after purchase.

In my case the diesel used was gas oil from a fully traceable source, fresh and uncontaminated, supplied direct from a fuel distributor who also supplies several inland marinas.

I carried out the installation myself entirely in accordance with the dealers installation manual. Furthermore I had it checked by an authorised Webasto engineer who gave it his seal of approval.

 

To summarise:

 

The cause of many of the problems of these heaters is NOT dirty/old diesel. This is a smokescreen perpetuated by those with a commercial interest. (In any case, is it reasonable to expect boat owners to always have "fresh" diesel in their tanks when many are intermittant users on boats with 100 gallon or more tanks.)

 

Suggesting that running on higher grade diesel/paraffin is a solution is unsatisfactory. It is more expensive and the heaters are NOT SOLD ON THIS BASIS.

 

Suggestions about only running them for a short period or not allowing them to run on "tickover" or "low heat" may well help to extend their reliability, but why should the customer have to live with these constraints? Surely it would not be beyond a manufacturer such as Webasto to develop new software that disables the low setting so that the heater only cycles from full heat to off (whilst widening the high/low temp. limits to reduce frequency of cycling.

 

Rant over.

Rob

[paulcatchpole]

Don't know but I know that LPG CH in a nb uses a lot of fuel, up to 13 kg in 3 days! ok that's an extreme example but they do gobble it up. Ebers etc are impractical as full time CH especially on the electrical front. Solid fuel can't be matched IMO

 

The boiler I was talking about, is in our boat...

 

But fair cop, it's a personal choice, we removed the solid fuel stove after getting fed up of being covered in black stuff and having to occasionally relight it in the mornings. We could easily get through more than a 25kg bag of fuel a week, so up to £15/week in fuel, and still be using gas to run the Morco for hot water.

 

We junked the morco and stove for the boiler, and at absolute peak can get through a 13kg cylinder in 5-6 days, but with tanks of hot water for baths as well. At the moment, being spring, the current 13kg has been on for about 3 weeks, as the heating is timed off and comes on for hot water - mind you, I'm sitting here with the heating on at the moment, 'cause I'm nesh.

 

Anyhoo, we can't really talk 'cause the project boat has the old morco installed in it, and a different solid fuel stove, albeit with a back boiler and radiators this time... Round and round we go...

 

PC

[smileypete]

Suggestions about only running them for a short period or not allowing them to run on "tickover" or "low heat" may well help to extend their reliability, but why should the customer have to live with these constraints? Surely it would not be beyond a manufacturer such as Webasto to develop new software that disables the low setting so that the heater only cycles from full heat to off (whilst widening the high/low temp. limits to reduce frequency of cycling.

It's possible to help them to run at a constant temperature using a thermostatic valve, and by using a small cylinder in a way similar to a thermal store.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[dccruiser]

If anyone needs a spare D5W or parts please see my ad in the for sale section

 

cheers

Rick

[nb Innisfree]

Better to run at tickover' than let them keep shutting down and starting up.

[Roger Gunkel]

Hi all,

Can I first put this one to bed.

In my considerable experience of Webasto problems, I have encountered only one authorised Webasto company that has any idea what they are talking about.....................................................................

 

Rob

 

I didn't quote the whole post as it is all a few posts back, but I am in total agreement with everything that Rob says in his post. There are a number of people on this forum who have had very bad experiences with these types of heaters over a considerable period of time. Rather than making wild accusations and uninformed statements, careful research has gone into the problems of the heaters, fuel and electrics. Two of these people, Rob and Paul Sylvan, have gone the whole way and taken legal proceedings against the manufacturers. They have both won!! That speaks for itself and people who continually find excuses for the misreprentation of these units, should really wake up and look at the evidence, not the hearsay!

 

Thanks Rob for making the post and presenting your strong and valued viewpoint.

 

Roger

[Naughty Cal]

I didn't quote the whole post as it is all a few posts back, but I am in total agreement with everything that Rob says in his post. There are a number of people on this forum who have had very bad experiences with these types of heaters over a considerable period of time. Rather than making wild accusations and uninformed statements, careful research has gone into the problems of the heaters, fuel and electrics. Two of these people, Rob and Paul Sylvan, have gone the whole way and taken legal proceedings against the manufacturers. They have both won!! That speaks for itself and people who continually find excuses for the misreprentation of these units, should really wake up and look at the evidence, not the hearsay!

 

Thanks Rob for making the post and presenting your strong and valued viewpoint.

 

Roger

 

So Roger, what about the evidence of all of the people whose heaters work fine?

 

Should they just bin their heaters on the off chance that it may break down?

Edited May 14, 2010 by Phylis

[granddad]

So Roger, what about the evidence of all of the people whose heaters work fine?

 

Should they just bin their heaters on the off chance that it may break down?

So to sum up my webasto thermo 90 is unreliable because the fuel is not EN590 or better. I've had it 11 years and only the last 6 have been "unreliable". I have moved marina 4 times and possibly the first one was supplying the "best" diesel. How can I check if the fuel on sale is EN590 or where it is sold.

 

I have fitted a paraffin tank to start up on, and I will try that.

 

Regarding over sizing - this is a 10 kw machine and it takes 3 hours to warm the boat to 20c in really cold weather. I will also reroute the air intake into the non engine side of the engine room plates - its worth a try. I will also take it home and service it on a bench each winter as it has been mentioned that its not hard to work on.

Thanks you guys

ken

[Roger Gunkel]

So Roger, what about the evidence of all of the people whose heaters work fine?

 

Should they just bin their heaters on the off chance that it may break down?

 

Well Phylis, it is entirely up to each individual what they do with their heaters, based on whatever advice they choose to take.

 

Like you, I have a boat that I use on a recreational basis which has an Eberspecher air blown heater that has given me no problems for many years, this is in addition to my liveaboard, which is a different story. If you have been following the background to these posts in depth, you would have seen that the heaters referred to are the hydronic/thermotop water circulating types, which are used as liveaboard central heating systems. The evidence from this category of user and heater supports a large number of failures over the years when run on red diesel which is below the EN590 standard.

 

If people wish to purchase these heaters for liveaboard purposes, then my advice is to listen carefully to those that have used them for that purpose, rather than casual users or suppliers. Those that want to use them for recreational use will not require anywhere near the running hours, and may find that they suit their requirements if they are regularly serviced.

 

If you are a liveaboard running one on red diesel, I certainly wouldn't suggest that you bin it, although it is quite possible that you will end up having major failures, just like me, Blackrose, Paul Sylvan, Robq and many others who I can't remember or be bothered to look up. You may find that one of the suggested modifications may help it to keep running. I won't be binning mine just yet without trying to run it on parafin for occasional use after a rebuild.

 

I am quite happy for anyone to go and spend their thousands of hard earned on these systems if they wish, as it will make no difference to my life whatsoever. All I and others can do is pass on very well documented first hand experience for those thinking of going down that route, which they can choose to heed or ignore as they wish.

 

Roger

Edited May 15, 2010 by Roger Gunkel

[Theo]

I hadn't been on the forum for a while, now I'm back and it's groundhog day again!

 

As Mike 'Blackrose' says, my Hydronic 10 was replaced by Eber under guarantee with a Hydronic 5, which was replaced less than 600 hours later with another Hydronic 5, which died after another 500 hours.

 

The facts for these type of heaters, Webasto/Eberspacher/Mikumi are very simple, they need diesel to the basic spec of EN590 - Road Diesel! This is stated by the manufacturers. Red diesel generally available on the inland waterways is to a lower spec and always has been! This has not been publicised by heater manufacturers or suppliers, who always blame the quality of the fuel for failures. There is nothing wrong with the vast majority of red diesel that is supplied by most waterway suppliers, as has been shown by the trouble free use in engines for decades. But it is to a standard that is lower than EN590.

 

The manufacturers of these heaters, when pushed, will tell you that they are not suitable as full time central heating units for boats. If you choose to fit one anyway, then you should run it on white diesel or low sulphur EN590 red, both of which are difficult to obtain canalside. The alternative which may give better results, is parafin which will need a seperate tank.

 

There will also be occasional users that will tell you how good the units are, and indeed I have run an older D2 on my other boat for 6 years. But in that time it has probably run for no more than 100 hours! We warned though, if you are contemplating one of these heaters for your only liveaboard heating system, you do so at your peril.

 

Roger

I think that one of the Mikuni people reads CWDF. A year or two ago there was an advertisement in WW claiming that Mikunis would run n any type of diesel or gas oil. It was just after one of these long threads.

 

As for Theodora's Mikuni: Performance on start up is very dependent on the voltage at the heater. Before I got around to rewiring the 12V I resorted to a thick wire straight from the battery. I had it serviced for £100 fairly soon after buying the boat. While on the grand tour (11 months) it coked up good and proper but I sorted that out myself with a bit of advice from the engineer at Eastleigh. After that the problem was that it would not recognise that it had fired up successfully. After a bit of advice from the man a Crick the year before last I polished up the sensor and it has been working perfectly ever since.

 

Nick

[Naughty Cal]

There is a very intersting article on these heaters in this months waterways world. I dont have it to hand as i have left it on the boat, but the recommended heater size for a 60x12ft fat narrowboat is a 3kw system with around 8 radiators.

 

This makes most of the heaters fitted well oversized. Maybe the source of a lot of the problems.

[alan_fincher]

There is a very intersting article on these heaters in this months waterways world. I dont have it to hand as i have left it on the boat, but the recommended heater size for a 60x12ft fat narrowboat is a 3kw system with around 8 radiators.

Interesting how you have reached that conclusion when the first table in that article shows the approximate heat requirement for a 60ft by 12 ft boat as 4,280 watts.

 

I guess if you know a way of extracting nearly 4.3 KW from a heater only rated at 3KW there would be some wide-beam owners on here interested to know the trick, so they could get their fuel costs a lot lower!

[blackrose]

There is a very intersting article on these heaters in this months waterways world. I dont have it to hand as i have left it on the boat, but the recommended heater size for a 60x12ft fat narrowboat is a 3kw system with around 8 radiators.

 

This makes most of the heaters fitted well oversized. Maybe the source of a lot of the problems.

 

Those recommendations must have been written by someone who has never lived on a boat. 3Kw wouldn't heat my boat in the depths of winter.

 

Anyway, we've already established the source of most of the problems: the heaters aren't supposed to use the low grade gas oil widely available in this country which is sold as red diesel. I don't know why you refuse to take this fact onboard when it's so well-documented? Perhaps those with Hydronic water heaters who have had no problems just have access to a better grade of fuel?

Edited May 17, 2010 by blackrose

[alan_fincher]

Those recommendations must have been written by someone who has never lived on a boat.

Those recommendations have not been written, I think. I can't see them in the article!

[Roger Gunkel]

There is a very intersting article on these heaters in this months waterways world. I dont have it to hand as i have left it on the boat, but the recommended heater size for a 60x12ft fat narrowboat is a 3kw system with around 8 radiators.

 

This makes most of the heaters fitted well oversized. Maybe the source of a lot of the problems.

 

 

The Waterways World article was taken from the original written by German engineers Emuel Bernard Spacher and Werner Basto. They were assisted by Japanese Feng Shui expert Mitso Kumi.

 

The original article stated that research has shown quite clearly that every single failed system was due to a number of factors that can be quite clearly evidenced. All failed systems were in fact oversized, requiring a maximum output of 4Kw for a 60ft x12ft wide beamed boat. Fitting of a larger unit was leading to the units closing down too early, before carbon deposits were able to be burned away by extended running time. As suppliers were constantly fitting 5 or 10Kw units, even in smaller boats, there was inevitably a problem with running them in a 24/7 system. The recommended 4Kw system would also require 8 radiators to be installed to sufficiently spread the heat output and avoid overheating.

 

Insulation levels, heat loss through windows, outside temperatures, double glazing etc were all found to be irrelevant, providing the installation was correct. Feng Shui expert Mitso Kumi has quite clearly shown that correct installation also requires that the main boiler system is orientated in an east-west horizontal plane and is within 2ft of a regularly tended pink orchid. The colour wavelength of the orchid together with the unique pollen structure, negates the harmful effect of any colouring additives in red diesel. Further and most importantly, each of the 8 radiators must be pitched at exactly 3.5 degrees to the sum of the longitudinal and vertical asymetric axis's of the vessel. Each radiator must also be to the exact shade of yellow specified by Mitso Kumi to enable the sympathetic wavelength of natural sunshine to be synthesised by the radiator surfaces. This synthesised wavelength will negate any heat loss, making insulation properties irrelevant in even the coldest weather.

 

When questioned as to why there were actually no 4Kw versions of the heaters advertised, it was pointed out that they have always been available to suppliers who had chosen to adopt the 5&10Kw versions for their own reasons. The research team acting on behalf of the manufactureres, also pointed out that all of this information has been readily available in the optional addendum to the manual and from the manufacturers website when unlocked with the registration key. The key and manual addendum is available free from the manufacturers upon completion of the registration form after purchase of any of their systems.

 

Hope that finally clears up the misunderstandings,

 

Roger

Edited May 17, 2010 by Roger Gunkel