My eberspacher is officially dead!

[nb Innisfree]

Today I removed the glowplug on our Mikuni MX60 (24v) and it was spotless, just a few specks of carbon on the tip. Now, I am really pleased about this as we have had probs for years with smoking, carboned glowplug and poor starting, and I feel sure that basically it was poor fuel quality and low sulphur gasoil is now finding it's way onto the market. The other issue with us is low voltage, Mikuni state an operating range of 21v to 28v but if we are off grid, voltage with our tired batteries can be as low as 23.4 and firing up is erratic. Recently we have had shorepower for several days and with a voltage of 27+ the Mikuni has never failed to start, plenty of smoke but this clears when ignition is achieved. Steelaway states he has no trouble with his Eberspacher but does add that sometimes he needs to start his engine first which seems to support my claim of poor starting due to low voltage. Most Mikunis don't have a low voltage compensating system and in the 24v case voltage must not exceed 28, Mikuni say the long wiring harness must not be shortened as it will effect voltage which must mean an excess of 28+ volts is avoided by this method. So if I could ensure a stable voltage of, say, 28v for start up this would increase reliability. Do people with reliable Mikuni/Eberspacher/Webasto heaters achieve this reliability due to shorepower and therefore higher voltage?

Edited May 9, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[Gibbo]

Mikuni say the long wiring harness must not be shortened as it will effect voltage which must mean an excess of 28+ volts is avoided by this method.

 

As a practicing electronic design engineer I will state with absolute 100% certainty and conviction that this is an admission of shit design.

 

To rely on the resistance of connecting wires to a piece of equipment, for anything, is the sign of an absolute beginner. Or a kludge, or a lie.

[nb Innisfree]

As a practicing electronic design engineer I will state with absolute 100% certainty and conviction that this is an admission of shit design.

 

To rely on the resistance of connecting wires to a piece of equipment, for anything, is the sign of an absolute beginner. Or a kludge, or a lie.

 

I can't decide if the reluctance to start is down to low voltage in the electronics or just the glowplug, if the latter I can do something about it as it uses two 12v glowplugs in series and I could bypass the dropper glowplug with a resistor with less resistance. In fact I have already experimented with a heavy duty 1ohm job which seems to give the glowplug an extra glow, problem is at what voltage to switch it in (a relay via Smartgauge maybe) + what voltage will a 12v glowplug endure and would the different resistance affect the electronics in the control box though I would have thought the glowplug circuit is simply switched in with a relay.

Edited May 9, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[Gibbo]

I can't decide if the reluctance to start is down to low voltage in the electronics or just the glowplug, if the latter I can do something about it as it uses two 12v glowplugs in series and I could bypass the dropper glowplug with a resistor with less resistance. In fact I have already experimented with a heavy duty 1ohm job which seems to give the glowplug an extra glow, problem is at what voltage to switch it in (a relay via Smartgauge maybe) + what voltage will a 12v glowplug endure and would the different resistance affect the electronics in the control box.

 

Er.... I dunno!

 

If they state that the wiring loom should not be shortened then they are obviously aware that they have an overvoltage problem. ie their equipment is liable to blow up on the sorts of charge voltages we normally use. Their solution is to rely on the resistance of the wiring loom. Nasty!

 

But I've also seen the looms extended with cable that is too thin and quite large voltage drops only apparent during start, which is when no one measures them. This seems to be a much more common problem.

 

Julian had some problems with his blowing due to surges from his charger so they're obviously very susceptible to this problem.

 

I guess the only full solution is a regulated feed to the glow plugs, but that's gonna cost a fair penny.

[nb Innisfree]

Er.... I dunno!

 

If they state that the wiring loom should not be shortened then they are obviously aware that they have an overvoltage problem. ie their equipment is liable to blow up on the sorts of charge voltages we normally use. Their solution is to rely on the resistance of the wiring loom. Nasty!

 

But I've also seen the looms extended with cable that is too thin and quite large voltage drops only apparent during start, which is when no one measures them. This seems to be a much more common problem.

 

Julian had some problems with his blowing due to surges from his charger so they're obviously very susceptible to this problem.

 

I guess the only full solution is a regulated feed to the glow plugs, but that's gonna cost a fair penny.

 

Is there such a beast? I am only aware of 24v-24v converters but not one that puts out more than, say, 26v. It would need to handle about 25A @ 24v

Edited May 9, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[GUMPY]

12v MX40 suffer blowing glow plugs if the voltage is to high however Mikuni have a unit that is used on the MX60 that has a limiting resistor in series with the plug if the volts are to high, costs about £60 and you would have to ask Steve at Mikuni about it.

Dont know if this could be adapted to allow you to run one plug.

[nb Innisfree]

12v MX40 suffer blowing glow plugs if the voltage is to high however Mikuni have a unit that is used on the MX60 that has a limiting resistor in series with the plug if the volts are to high, costs about £60 and you would have to ask Steve at Mikuni about it.

Dont know if this could be adapted to allow you to run one plug.

 

Yes but that is on the 12v MX60 which switches resistor in and out. 24v MX60 and 12v/24v MX40 share the same electronics and both 24v models already have a limiting resistor in the form of a secondary 12v glowplug permanently in series with primary 12v glowplug (removable link for 12v model) but that is the basic problem having to limit voltage to primary glowplug but suffering at the other end of battery voltage with too little. Mikuni have an operating voltage range of 21v to 28v which is too low at 28v as batteries can sometimes easily exceed 30v when charging. Top quality properly designed marine equipment such as Victron for instance operate from 19v to 32v. Don't know why they can't use 24v glowplugs but I suspect the reason may be they are not available so they have compromised to save going back to the drawing board with the electronics. Several models seem to share the same control box.

 

I agree with Gibbo, It's poor design.

[smileypete]

As a practicing electronic design engineer I will state with absolute 100% certainty and conviction that this is an admission of shit design.

 

To rely on the resistance of connecting wires to a piece of equipment, for anything, is the sign of an absolute beginner. Or a kludge, or a lie.

Maybe, but what's more appealing to their main market, a heater that needs a 25mm supply or one that needs a 100mm supply say?

 

 

Is there such a beast? I am only aware of 24v-24v converters but not one that puts out more than, say, 26v. It would need to handle about 25A @ 24v

If there's 2 plugs in series, then possibly a regulator could keep the midpoint from falling below 12V, and since it wouldn't pass the full 25A maybe a 5A one would do.

 

 

The other issue with us is low voltage, Mikuni state an operating range of 21v to 28v but if we are off grid, voltage with our tired batteries can be as low as 23.4 and firing up is erratic. Recently we have had shorepower for several days and with a voltage of 27+ the Mikuni has never failed to start, plenty of smoke but this clears when ignition is achieved.

What voltage do you get at the heater on startup when the batt voltage is 23.4?

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited May 9, 2010 by smileypete

[nb Innisfree]

What voltage do you get at the heater on startup when the batt voltage is 23.4?

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

When voltage was 23.7 it was 19.5v at the glowplug circuit of which 10.3v was taken by the dropping resistor and 9.2 by the glowplug. When batt voltage was 29v glowplug varied between 9.6v and 10.7v, all measured with a cheapo multimeter. Total load when glowplug is working reads 20A @24v on the battery monitor. I have run a hefty supply cable up to the Mikuni harness so any volt drop has been intended by Mikuni.

 

Edited to add: 23.7v was before startup commenced so prob dropped to less than 23v when under startup load, I think the glowplug(s) take about 15A @24v

Edited May 9, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[GUMPY]

Edited to add: 23.7v was before startup commenced so prob dropped to less than 23v when under startup load, I think the glowplug(s) take about 15A @24v

 

23.7 that's a flat battery in my book, so i'm not surprised it doesn't work!

I try never to let my 24v system drop below 75% (24.5V) even when off the moorings, means I have to charger for a couple of hours every day but that's life.

As for the 12v regulator my thought would be to remove the second glow plug and use the regulator to reduce the voltage to 12v for the remaining plug.

My reg is only on the 12v plug doesn't affect the electronics at all. As I said talk to Steve at Mikuni to see if it will work.

[blackrose]

Do people with reliable Mikuni/Eberspacher/Webasto heaters achieve this reliability due to shorepower and therefore higher voltage?

 

My eberspacher was run on batteries on float charge of 13.6v for most of the time.

 

A good battery voltage will help, but mine still crapped out in about 1500 hours.

Edited May 9, 2010 by blackrose

[smileypete]

When voltage was 23.7 it was 19.5v at the glowplug circuit of which 10.3v was taken by the dropping resistor and 9.2 by the glowplug. When batt voltage was 29v glowplug varied between 9.6v and 10.7v, all measured with a cheapo multimeter. Total load when glowplug is working reads 20A @24v on the battery monitor. I have run a hefty supply cable up to the Mikuni harness so any volt drop has been intended by Mikuni.

 

Edited to add: 23.7v was before startup commenced so prob dropped to less than 23v when under startup load, I think the glowplug(s) take about 15A @24v

I'd keep the dropping resistor but use something like this to feed the gloplug with 10.7V derived from the gloplug circuit supply:

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LM1084-LM1084IT-ADJ-...=item58803231e6

 

If the gloplug hot resistance is 0.6 ohms, it'll only need 3A through the regulator to lift the gloplug voltage from 9.2 to 10.7V. Some power resistors in the regulator supply will help limit it's dissipation.

 

 

My eberspacher was run on batteries on float charge of 13.6v for most of the time.

 

A good battery voltage will help, but mine still crapped out in about 1500 hours.

How often was it serviced, and did it smoke much on startup or while running?

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited May 9, 2010 by smileypete

[Gibbo]

When voltage was 23.7 it was 19.5v at the glowplug circuit of which 10.3v was taken by the dropping resistor and 9.2 by the glowplug. When batt voltage was 29v glowplug varied between 9.6v and 10.7v, all measured with a cheapo multimeter. Total load when glowplug is working reads 20A @24v on the battery monitor. I have run a hefty supply cable up to the Mikuni harness so any volt drop has been intended by Mikuni.

 

Edited to add: 23.7v was before startup commenced so prob dropped to less than 23v when under startup load, I think the glowplug(s) take about 15A @24v

 

Something doesn't add up here.

 

If it dropped from 23 volts to 19.5 volts at 15 amps that means something, somewhere, is dissipating 52 watts. This would be immediately obvious from the smell of buring something and flames

 

I thought those glow plugs were supposed to work on 12 volts. Not 11, not 10 and certainly not 9 but 12.

[nb Innisfree]

23.7 that's a flat battery in my book, so i'm not surprised it doesn't work!

I try never to let my 24v system drop below 75% (24.5V) even when off the moorings, means I have to charger for a couple of hours every day but that's life.

As for the 12v regulator my thought would be to remove the second glow plug and use the regulator to reduce the voltage to 12v for the remaining plug.

My reg is only on the 12v plug doesn't affect the electronics at all. As I said talk to Steve at Mikuni to see if it will work.

 

As full time ccers 24.5 is a really good voltage for us but that seems to be the case with tired AGMs not much we can do about it except renew them but as they still provide us with 24 hrs use from 2 hours charging we might as well soldier on with them. I used to think the Mikuni voltage requirements were when off load but it must be when starting up. For reliable start up it needs more than about 26v so really that's not good enough for marine use. I can't see your suggestion working as one of the problems with replacing second glowplug with a regulator is getting rid of the heat, it is screwed in like the primary glowplug but in the air inlet instead + the regulator on the 12v MX60 only takes a small portion of the voltage as it only needs to drop from, say, 16v down to 14v, it would soon burn out trying to pass something in the order of 12v or more. I will see what he says but I think they would have tried that on the 24v model if it was viable.

 

Got to be careful as a new control box is quite pricey.

Edited May 9, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[GUMPY]

My eberspacher was run on batteries on float charge of 13.6v for most of the time.

 

A good battery voltage will help, but mine still crapped out in about 1500 hours.

 

Was it ever serviced?

I did my Mikuni MX40 once a year that's about 900hrs

Will do the MX60 in the next few months its a year old in August.

 

I will see what he says but I think they would have tried that on the 24v model if it was viable.

 

They didn't fit it to the 12v MX40 however one boat on the moorings here has it on his MX40 after asking about it.

Edited May 9, 2010 by idleness

[blackrose]

Was it ever serviced?

I did my Mikuni MX40 once a year that's about 900hrs

 

No, the consensus when I last asked was not to touch an eberspacher if it was still working and just be thankful.

 

How often was it serviced, and did it smoke much on startup or while running?

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

It never smoked. Worked fine until it refused to start one day.

 

It could still be serviced, but I'm unwilling to pay for a new burner because from the experience of others I know it's likely to end up with me just throwing good money after bad.

Edited May 10, 2010 by blackrose

[magnetman]

>>

Worked fine until it refused to start one day.

<<

 

They do that.

 

If you hit the thing hard with a decent sized hammer, as previously suggested, that won't happen any more

 

it will never start again and therefore will not let you down just when you really want it to work.

 

Its that horrible feeling when you are shivering, you know in your heart that it isn't going to work but it 'just might' but it doesn't. the disappointment is just unbearable.

 

If it was already broken into several parts the disappointment would be avoided completely.

[Naughty Cal]

If it is any consolation, our webasto fired up first crack this morning and kept us lovely and warm whilst we had morning coffee

[nb Innisfree]

Our Mikuni started up perfectly this morning

[blackrose]

Our Mikuni started up perfectly this morning

 

I never even consider the possibility that my solid fuel stove won't fire up. That's the trouble with eberspachers, webastos and mikunis - they are basically toys so you never know.

 

The only diesel heater that I'd ever ever spend money on again would be the drip-fed type such as a Kubola. Hurricane is a possibility but I'd like to see some owners reviews after a few more years.

 

They have the same discussions on other boat forums:

 

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227139

Edited May 10, 2010 by blackrose

[Naughty Cal]

It may well remain as one of lifes little mystery's why some people have no trouble with their webasto/eberspachers whilst others do.

 

No, the consensus when I last asked was not to touch an eberspacher if it was still working and just be thankful.

 

Do you not service your boat/car engine because they are working fine?

[Travis]

Relit the Kabola today, it's bally freezing up here.

 

Two capfulls of meths and one match.... No fuss, no electricity used, no smell....just warmth.

[blackrose]

It may well remain as one of lifes little mystery's why some people have no trouble with their webasto/eberspachers whilst others do.

 

 

Do you not service your boat/car engine because they are working fine?

 

Judging by what gets written on this and other forums, the vast majority of people with these heaters have a disproportionate amount of trouble with them. Those who don't seem to be in a small minority and generally they're people who are not living on their boats.

 

I service my boat engine and my motorbike on a regular basis. However, from the trouble I saw others having who had previously serviced these types of heaters I decided not to bother with the eberspacher. This was backed up by what a heating engineer and BSS examiner told me and also by what others on the forum told me too.

 

I wish you good luck with your webasto but if you are living on your boat it will not last even if you do service it. I got it from the horse's mouth that the lifespan of an eberspacher is only 5000 hours so basically it's a disposable item - just a very expensive one!

Edited May 10, 2010 by blackrose

[RLWP]

No, I service my boat engine and my motorbike on a regular basis. However, from the trouble I saw others having who had previously serviced these types of heaters I decided not to bother with the eberspacher. This was backed up by what a heating engineer and BSS examiner told me and also by what others on the forum told me too.

 

I wish you good luck with your webasto but if you are living on your boat it will not last.

 

What is being missed here is that Phylis apparently has a Webasto warm air system, whereas the problems seem to be with Webasto water heaters.

 

Richard

 

I think that is right anyway

[blackrose]

What is being missed here is that Phylis apparently has a Webasto warm air system, whereas the problems seem to be with Webasto water heaters.

 

Richard

 

I think that is right anyway

 

Could be. Perhaps the blowers are better, but they're not much good for big spaces.

Edited May 10, 2010 by blackrose