Skeg

[WotEver]

On our travels last weekend we came across a boater in trouble. As we approached I saw him lift the swan neck nearly a foot up in the air before banging it back down. I asked him if the rudder had come off the skeg and he confirmed that he'd hit a log which had bounced the rudder out of its cup and he was getting very frustrated attempting to get it back in. He declined my offer of help and I avoided saying "You know, it really shouldn't do that..."

 

I then got to wondering what usually keeps the rudder assembly 'down'? I know that ours can't lift out of the cup on the skeg without dismantling, so is it the top bearing that usually clamps it all in place?

 

Personally, I think he'd fallen foul of the curse of the coconuts...

 

Tony

 

edit to corrict spling

Edited September 2, 2009 by WotEver

[Timleech]

On our travels last weekend we came across a boater in trouble. As we approached I saw him lift the swan neck nearly a foot up in the air before banging it back down. I asked him if the rudder had come off the skeg and he confirmed that he'd hit a log which had bounced the rudder out of its cup and he was getting very frustrated attempting to get it back in. He declined my offer of help and I avoided saying "You know, it really shouldn't do that..."

 

I then got to wondering what usually keeps the rudder assembly 'down'? I know that ours can't lift out of the cup on the skeg without dismantling, so is it the top bearing that usually clamps it all in place?

 

Personally, I think he'd fallen foul of the curse of the coconuts...

 

Tony

 

Traditionally, just gravity.

A lot of modern boats do have the rudder post clamped tight in the top bearing, but this has its disadvantages.

 

Tim

[furnessvale]

I then got to wondering what usually keeps the rudder assembly 'down'?

Tony

 

Its own weight! Positively clamp it and the rudder or its post may buckle rather than lift out. They still can by the way if the obstruction is particularly nasty.

 

George ex nb Alton

[Liam]

Its own weight! Positively clamp it and the rudder or its post may buckle rather than lift out. They still can by the way if the obstruction is particularly nasty.

 

George ex nb Alton

 

My parents boat had their rudder post clamped at the bearing which goes through the counter. That suffered when the tiller was hit with the dry dock gate at Runcorn - it ended up bending the rudder post. Tim actually straightened it all out for us and advised me that he had left it unclamped. Has been fine since.

[Chris Pink]

He declined my offer of help and I avoided saying "You know, it really shouldn't do that..."

 

Personally, I think he'd fallen foul of the curse of the coconuts...

 

Tony

 

edit to corrict spling

 

better that than a bent skeg, rudder stock or dented uxter plate.

 

I don't imagine you soothed his frustration with your remark, like so much in life mysterious until you know why.

[WotEver]

I don't imagine you soothed his frustration with your remark...

 

Nahh... "I avoided saying "You know, it really shouldn't do that...""

 

Thanks for the info all... so maybe ours isn't clamped by the top bearing but it's so heavy I've never realised... something else to look at next time she's out the water.

 

T

[NB Alnwick]

Ours is too heavy to lift without assistance - the only time we had it out of the skeg was when the rudder got caught in the lock gates. When I let the water out of the lock the back of the boat dropped about four inches but the rudder didn't - then when the gates opened it dropped with an almighty clang

 

We learned our lesson - keep well forward when ascending locks and it is better to have the tipcats on even when you have been trying to paint the stern bands . . .

[Chris Pink]

Nahh... "I avoided saying "You know, it really shouldn't do that...""

 

glad to hear it, it is one of the most frustrating things trying to get the rudder back in its cup. Sometimes it goes back in first time, sometimes it can take a dozen tries.

[Albion]

On our travels last weekend we came across a boater in trouble. As we approached I saw him lift the swan neck nearly a foot up in the air before banging it back down. I asked him if the rudder had come off the skeg and he confirmed that he'd hit a log which had bounced the rudder out of its cup and he was getting very frustrated attempting to get it back in. He declined my offer of help and I avoided saying "You know, it really shouldn't do that..."

 

I then got to wondering what usually keeps the rudder assembly 'down'? I know that ours can't lift out of the cup on the skeg without dismantling, so is it the top bearing that usually clamps it all in place?

 

Personally, I think he'd fallen foul of the curse of the coconuts...

 

Tony

 

edit to corrict spling

 

It's gravity as others have said but what puzzles me about this event was that you say that the boater had lifted the swan neck so far. As the rudder blade would normally be large enough to nearly span the gap between skeg and uxter plate I can't see how he could have lifted it that far; a few inches maybe but not a foot. The clearance would only normally be sufficient to dislodge the rudder stock from the cup on the skeg and then the whole assembly can be dropped though into the water (having removed the swan neck first of course) and, using a rope through the hole in the tip of the blade, retrieved from below the boat.

Roger

Edited September 2, 2009 by Albion

[nb Innisfree]

On our travels last weekend we came across a boater in trouble. As we approached I saw him lift the swan neck nearly a foot up in the air before banging it back down. I asked him if the rudder had come off the skeg and he confirmed that he'd hit a log which had bounced the rudder out of its cup and he was getting very frustrated attempting to get it back in. He declined my offer of help and I avoided saying "You know, it really shouldn't do that..."

 

I then got to wondering what usually keeps the rudder assembly 'down'? I know that ours can't lift out of the cup on the skeg without dismantling, so is it the top bearing that usually clamps it all in place?

 

Personally, I think he'd fallen foul of the curse of the coconuts...

 

Tony

 

edit to corrict spling

 

If boat settles on rudder say on a lock cill, several tons can be transferred to top bearing and its mountings, if it can slide in top bearing weight will be taken on rudder and uxter plate which is better. So if enough resistance can be introduced to resist small things like logs then so much the better. I've often thought of fixing a weak link over the top of the rudder stock to achieve this.

[alan_fincher]

On our travels last weekend we came across a boater in trouble. As we approached I saw him lift the swan neck nearly a foot up in the air before banging it back down.

 

It's gravity as others have said but what puzzles me about this event was that you say that the boater had lifted the swan neck so far. As the rudder blade would normally be large enough to nearly span the gap between skeg and uxter plate I can't see how he could have lifted it that far; a few inches maybe but not a foot.

I'm also confused, and totally agree with Albion - in any conventional set up the swan neck, (if that be indeed the correct words!), could only lift by a few inches maximum before the top of the rudder was pushed hard against the uxter plate.

 

So either the rudder lifted a lot less far than described, I think, or this is some highly unusual arrangement that few could comment accurately on, as it is not how narrow boat rudders normally are.

 

Normally the rudder blade would be made as deep as the space between uxter plate and skeg permits, so that the whole thrust of the propeller gets diverted by it, and maximum steering effect is possible, surely ?

[WotEver]

Well, if it wasn't a foot it was certainly about 10 inches, and when it failed to sit in the cup there was about 4 inches of unpainted post still sticking up above the bearing.

 

I was confused as well, which is why I raised the question here.

 

Tony

 

Edit to say I wonder how his rudder was attached to the rudder post (is that the correct name?). If the rudder is sleeved onto the post then perhaps the post had slid up beyond the bottom of the rudder. It could explain why he was able to lift the neck so far, why he still had so much showing above the counter, and possibly why he was having so much trouble relocating it into the cup. Just a thought.

Edited September 2, 2009 by WotEver

[Strads]

Well I'llput my hands up to having done the same as Graham on Alnwick... but twice,,,, (once it cuaght me ought with abadly leaky lock)

 

however mine must weigh 80-100 kilos.... being 3cms thick.. it has @ 10 cms free movement height wise and that allows it to lift out the cop and drop either side...

 

I can see the logis that it needs some "movement" to avoid more serious damage to its bearings.mountings etc..

 

having been caught out - and learnt from freinds from on here how to solve would suggest most folks take a look at thier boats design to see how they can sort should it happen to them..

as some have a vertical shaft but most a rearward angled one that seems to shorten the rear deck space required on a trad...

 

we can also feel when we are running in mud rather than deep water - more vibration and harder to move steer....

 

and occasionally when we hit a lump or trolly ( the bridge approaching ricky) always gives it a bump..

[Mike_N]

Well I'llput my hands up to having done the same as Graham on Alnwick... but twice,,,, (once it cuaght me ought with abadly leaky lock)

 

however mine must weigh 80-100 kilos.... being 3cms thick.. it has @ 10 cms free movement height wise and that allows it to lift out the cop and drop either side...

 

I can see the logis that it needs some "movement" to avoid more serious damage to its bearings.mountings etc..

 

having been caught out - and learnt from freinds from on here how to solve would suggest most folks take a look at thier boats design to see how they can sort should it happen to them..

as some have a vertical shaft but most a rearward angled one that seems to shorten the rear deck space required on a trad...

 

we can also feel when we are running in mud rather than deep water - more vibration and harder to move steer....

 

and occasionally when we hit a lump or trolly ( the bridge approaching ricky) always gives it a bump..

 

Seems like there's some people who know what they're talking about here!!

 

I suspect that my rudder may have come out of the skeg cup - it's canted over by a few degrees, but otherwise seems to turn freely and work OK (although the incident that caused it occured as I turned into the marina, so I may not have discovered the full extent yet). How deep is the cup, and - assuming this is the problem - any tips on replacing it?

Edited September 24, 2009 by Mike_N

[RLWP]

Seems like there's some people who know what they're talking about here!!

 

I suspect that my rudder may have come out of the skeg cup - it's canted over by a few degrees, but otherwise seems to turn freely and work OK (although the incident that caused it occured as I turned into the marina, so I may not have discovered the full extent yet). How deep is the cup, and - assuming this is the problem - any tips on replacing it?

 

That sounds like the usual symptoms. They are tricky to get back into the cup and it usually involves cursing and struggling.

 

Our cup is just over an inch deep and the bottom of the rudder is a rattling fit in the cup. I have had success doing this job by first lifting the whole assembly and getting it to sit on the skeg. Get someone to help you by telling you if the rudder post is about vertical. You then know that the next moves need to be roughly forward or backward to locate the cup. It's a bit of a faff but it can be done.

 

Richard

 

Traditionally, just gravity.

A lot of modern boats do have the rudder post clamped tight in the top bearing, but this has its disadvantages.

 

Tim

 

Like the boat I rescued in the Knowle flight. Their rudder post had forced the bearing out of its housing by splitting the casting in two. The two partes then stopped the bearing from dropping back in.

 

Richard

[furnessvale]

That sounds like the usual symptoms. They are tricky to get back into the cup and it usually involves cursing and struggling.

 

Our cup is just over an inch deep and the bottom of the rudder is a rattling fit in the cup. I have had success doing this job by first lifting the whole assembly and getting it to sit on the skeg. Get someone to help you by telling you if the rudder post is about vertical. You then know that the next moves need to be roughly forward or backward to locate the cup. It's a bit of a faff but it can be done.

 

Richard

 

By virtue of the length of the tiller and its relative position to the cabin when in the correct position, leaving the tiller on the swans neck while you are doing this often gives a strong visual indication as to whether the pin is forward, backward or to the side of the cup, so you can lift and move as appropriate.

 

It can also tell you if you have bent anything underwater at the same time:-(

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[ditchcrawler]

It's gravity as others have said but what puzzles me about this event was that you say that the boater had lifted the swan neck so far. As the rudder blade would normally be large enough to nearly span the gap between skeg and uxter plate I can't see how he could have lifted it that far; a few inches maybe but not a foot. The clearance would only normally be sufficient to dislodge the rudder stock from the cup on the skeg and then the whole assembly can be dropped though into the water (having removed the swan neck first of course) and, using a rope through the hole in the tip of the blade, retrieved from below the boat.

Roger

Maybe it had already fallen 9" when it came out of the cup, if the tiller was straight ahead it could have dropped beside the sceg and he was just pulling it up again.

[WotEver]

Maybe it had already fallen 9" when it came out of the cup, if the tiller was straight ahead it could have dropped beside the sceg and he was just pulling it up again.

 

That makes sense

[steelaway]

I have never tried but I imagine I could feel the bottom cup through my weed hatch, it might help to relocate it.

 

Alex

[MoominPapa]

I have never tried but I imagine I could feel the bottom cup through my weed hatch, it might help to relocate it.

Trying to feel the bottom cup whilst trying to relocate the rudder sounds like a recipe for loosing fingers.

 

MP.

[Timleech]

I have never tried but I imagine I could feel the bottom cup through my weed hatch, it might help to relocate it.

 

Alex

 

Depends on the boat, but you might need unusually long arms

 

Tim

[nb Innisfree]

I helped a boater to relocate his rudder as he didn't know what had happened, he said in 27 years of boating he had never heard of such a thing!?