Axiom Props

[alan_fincher]

it's fitted to all the cars I have driven in the last 15 years ................

 

................ everybody who drives a manual is a luddite

Perhaps everybody is not as rich as you, Chris ?

 

I'm not just talking about the higher initial purchase price of an automatic transmission, and higher maintenance costs thereafter, but also about the often considerably worse fuel economy that accompanies it.

 

When I ordered my last company car, I decided to stick with an automatic, (the cost to me was actually less, because of how they priced the leasing deal we were on), but once I left the company and bought the wretched thing, I have strongly regretted the decision each time I have to fill its (very large) tank.

 

It's a diesel, which seem to have an even bigger penalty in fuel consumption terms for choosing automatic over manual.

 

Never again - I need to be saving money, not wasting it, (which is also why I'm highly unlikely to ever "asipre" to an Axiom thingamajig).

 

Doubly :lol:

 

Does anybody know why the differential in price between petrol and DERV seems to have fallen from around to 14 ppl to 4 ppl in recent weeks/months, please ?

Edited June 18, 2009 by alan_fincher

[David Schweizer]

Whatever happened to the pre-selector gearbox? I once drove a Lanchester Daimler with one, it was anice car, but it was an aquired art to select the correct gear in advance, particularly in hilly terrain.

 

Pre-selector gearboxes were used in London buses for years, and when the new (Routemaster??) buses were introduced with automatic boxes the drivers refused to use them, claiming that the driver had insuffuicient control over the vehicle. As far as I know they were all converted to pre-selector. I only know this because my wife's grandfather drove London Buses for 49 years and used to love telling me little stories about times past.

[Hairy-Neil]

And for all the sceptics, No I did not get all this from google, I do actually have books on the life and work of Brunel (amongst others). One thing I need to correct from an earlier posting is crediting Erickson with the invention of the screw propeller. this is not strictly correct, he was the first person to patent a screw propleller, which had already been used experimentally on smaller boats prior to his patent, but not patented.

 

Archimedes is generally credited with the propellor idea in the 3rd century BC, though others say they were around in the 7th century BC to irrigate Nebuchadnezzar II's Hanging Gardens of Babylon.

[David Schweizer]

Archimedes is generally credited with the propellor idea in the 3rd century BC, though others say they were around in the 7th century BC to irrigate Nebuchadnezzar II's Hanging Gardens of Babylon.

yes, Archimedes is generally recognised as designing a screw to raise water from ditches to irrigate crops, but as far as I know, there is no evidence that he ever used it to propel a boat.

 

 

 

Not so. You pay the price for the lack of gear changing in the loss of fuel ecconomy. My experience of otherwise identical Mondeo estates showed a 6 MPG difference.

I have to agree, my wife had a VW Golf Automatic, we both grew to hate it, fuel consumotion was not very good, and the gearbox changes always happened at the wrong time, or not at all some times unless you gave the accelerator a hefty kick. She has since had several manual gear Golfs which are all fine (if a bit small).

[alan_fincher]

 

David,

 

I'm an ex bus driver, but never on RTs or Routemasters, so my knowledge may not be 100%.

 

My understanding though, is that the above is not correct.

 

The earler London bus, (the RT), along with the single decker RF, indded used pre-selector boxes, as you say.

 

My understanding is that Routemasters had a box that, (from new) could be driven in fully automatic mode, or where the driver could chose to manually select the gears, (my current car has broadly the same arrangement).

 

I don't believe Routemasters were ever converted across the board to any kind of pre-selector arrangement.

 

I never drove a pre-selector vehicle, I always fancied it, although it seemed such an odd concept, (select the gear now you expect to use in several miles ).

Edited June 18, 2009 by alan_fincher

[dor]

Does anybody know why the differential in price between petrol and DERV seems to have fallen from around to 14 ppl to 4 ppl in recent weeks/months, please ?

 

I questioned the differential when it was going up and about 12p/l. All I could get from various sources was a load of pseudo-bullSh*t (so perhaps this isn't so far off topic after all).

 

I suspect it was because at the time the petrocos were getting a lot of flack over the price of fuel and everyone concentrated on the price of petrol. So no doubt they lowered the petrol price a bit more than they would have liked and recouped it on the diesel, which must now be a significant percentage of fuel sales even though people still equate fuel prices with petrol prices (hence all the fuss when petrol goes over £1/l).

[journeyperson]

it's fitted to all the cars I have driven in the last 15 years ................

 

 

 

................ everybody who drives a manual is a luddite

 

I rather agree with this view. Driving a manual shift is a bit like having a dog and barking yourself. Why not stick your arm out of the window to signal whilst you're at it?

 

As for economy I drive an automatic 2 litre turbo diesel and it is easily the most economical car I've had since my 2cv.

Edited June 18, 2009 by journeyperson

[alan_fincher]

As for economy I drive an automatic 2 litre turbo diesel and it is easily the most economical car I've had since my 2cv.

Taken direct from Volvo's technical data for latest V70 2.4D Diesel model.....

 

Fuel consumption (combined cycle)

 

6 Speed manual box - 47.1 MPG

6 speed automatic box - 41.5 MPG

 

That's not a trivial difference - it's a very big difference, (automatic uses 13.5% more diesel), and bad news for the planet.

 

Great on driver convenience, but rather more damaging than having fitted indicators rather than having to stick your arm out to signal with.

 

Lets hope an Axiom propped boat doesn't also need 13.5% more diesel.

Edited June 18, 2009 by alan_fincher

[AlanH]

Perhaps everybody is not as rich as you, Chris ?

 

I'm not just talking about the higher initial purchase price of an automatic transmission, and higher maintenance costs thereafter, but also about the often considerably worse fuel economy that accompanies it.

 

When I ordered my last company car, I decided to stick with an automatic, (the cost to me was actually less, because of how they priced the leasing deal we were on), but once I left the company and bought the wretched thing, I have strongly regretted the decision each time I have to fill its (very large) tank.

 

It's a diesel, which seem to have an even bigger penalty in fuel consumption terms for choosing automatic over manual.

 

Never again - I need to be saving money, not wasting it, (which is also why I'm highly unlikely to ever "asipre" to an Axiom thingamajig).

 

Doubly :lol:

 

Does anybody know why the differential in price between petrol and DERV seems to have fallen from around to 14 ppl to 4 ppl in recent weeks/months, please ?

[carlt]

If you object to off-topic posts try moving the thread back on topic.

 

 

Do the Axiom prop salesmen claim ground-breaking improvements in performance, making it demonstrably superior to all conventional props?

 

Yes!

 

Does the Yachting Monthly test confirm these claims of vastly superior performance?

 

No!

 

Did the Axiom salesmen use dishonest and underhand tactics to introduce their prop to the forum?

 

Yes!

 

Do I remain a sceptic?

 

Yes!

Edited June 18, 2009 by carlt

[journeyperson]

Lets hope an Axiom propped boat doesn't also need 13.5% more diesel.

 

I appreciate that this has gone off topic, but regarding fuel economy, it's all relative. Unless you are driving THE most fuel efficient car, or better still walking/cycling, you can be accused of damaging the planet (FFS).

[AlanH]

Perhaps everybody is not as rich as you, Chris ?

 

I'm not just talking about the higher initial purchase price of an automatic transmission, and higher maintenance costs thereafter, but also about the often considerably worse fuel economy that accompanies it.

My last four cars have been automatics and whilst I accept that the fuel consumption is greater on older carsI would dispute that maintenance costs are higher compared with manual gearboxes and clutches. I've never had a gearbox problem.

Modern DSG auto gearboxes are much more economical than the fluid flywheel types.

Manual shift gearboxes are a thing of the past as far as I'm concerned.

[Chertsey]

I appreciate that this has gone off topic, but regarding fuel economy, it's all relative. Unless you are driving THE most fuel efficient car, or better still walking/cycling, you can be accused of damaging the planet (FFS).

True but not the point. The point is minimising the damage.

[carlt]

My last four cars have been automatics and whilst I accept that the fuel consumption is greater on older carsI would dispute that maintenance costs are higher compared with manual gearboxes and clutches. I've never had a gearbox problem.

Modern DSG auto gearboxes are much more economical than the fluid flywheel types.

Manual shift gearboxes are a thing of the past as far as I'm concerned.

[journeyperson]

True but not the point. The point is minimising the damage.

 

 

I think it is the point. Compared with my last few cars I am using much less fuel. Are you saying I have to buy a super economical eco car?

Edited June 18, 2009 by journeyperson

[john b.]

As anybody already fitted one of these Axiom thingies if so be brave and post your observations.

John b.

[Theo]

What extra expense? they must be seriously dear if they are dearer than Crowthers unless snake oil does work after all - is that 30 CC Api BTW

Not a huge amount if you are fitting it to a new boat but a great deal if you are pulling out the boat that you own and then pulling off the old prop and pushing on the new. Does my old left handed prop have a resale value?

 

I spoke to Axiom at Crick and they said that they could make me a LH prop but it would take a bit longer than usual because they have not yet made one.

 

Nick

[alan_fincher]

What extra expense? they must be seriously dear if they are dearer than Crowthers unless snake oil does work after all - is that 30 CC Api BTW

 

 

Not a huge amount if you are fitting it to a new boat but a great deal if you are pulling out the boat that you own and then pulling off the old prop and pushing on the new.

 

I thought it had been reported they were significantly more expensive even than a Crowthers one.

 

Has anybody actually had a quote from both suppliers, for the same boat, please, and if so, what were the number ?

[churchward]

I thought it had been reported they were significantly more expensive even than a Crowthers one.

 

Has anybody actually had a quote from both suppliers, for the same boat, please, and if so, what were the number ?

It had and Greybeard posted further up the thread that he was quoted £690 for a 14" see quote below

 

Hi

 

I don't know how much a Crowthers 14" prop would be but I've been quoted £690.00 for an Axiom 3 bladed version.

 

Price includes for delivery but not VAT (they're not registered)

 

Boat not out of water until next Spring so I've a little time for more homework (given that there price doesn't increase in the meantime).

 

I've actually got to check the diameter as I'm not sure what size prop I need so started at 14" for a guide price.

 

GB

[alan_fincher]

It had and Greybeard posted further up the thread that he was quoted £690 for a 14" see quote below

Ah, yes.

 

So nearly seven hundred quid for a really rather small prop......

 

What would a bog standard three-blader cost in that size ? Maybe £150-ish - I don't know, but sub-£200 surely ?

 

So Axiom maybe four times as expensive as a standard off the shelf offering ?

 

Sheesh!

[Guest]

My last four cars have been automatics and whilst I accept that the fuel consumption is greater on older carsI would dispute that maintenance costs are higher compared with manual gearboxes and clutches. I've never had a gearbox problem.

Modern DSG auto gearboxes are much more economical than the fluid flywheel types.

Manual shift gearboxes are a thing of the past as far as I'm concerned.

Must admit I bought an eight year old Shogun auto last year, and have been pleased with the fuel economy (in Shogun terms)and the gearchange is almost unnoticable. I am sure the manual version is more economical, but the old auto isn't too bad. The biggest problem with autos is if they go wrong, it is time to sell a kidney. I have no axe to grind either way having had many manuals in the past, and if this Shogun had been a manual I would have still bought it. It does not have an Axiom propellor, nor am I likely to fit one.

[alan_fincher]

It does not have an Axiom propellor, nor am I likely to fit one.

Very neatly steered back "on topic" in the dying moments of the post !

[rjasmith]

I thought it had been reported they were significantly more expensive even than a Crowthers one.

 

Has anybody actually had a quote from both suppliers, for the same boat, please, and if so, what were the number ?

 

 

Ok its been a day or two since I last looked at this thread but I do have quotes for a 22" dia prop to suit a Kelvin K2 on a Colecraft shell where the prop swinging room is a little smaller than ideal perhaps. I didn't mean to get a quote from Axiom but they seem to be linked to Clements who I have asked to quote. Clements passed my request on to Axiom and this resulted in a surprise call and email from them! I have since gone back to Clements and asked for them to quote on their own behalf.

 

Results are:-

 

Crowthers 3 bladed 22" dia with appropriate DAR and pitch for the engine parameters. £575 inc VAT, delivery extra

Clements 4 bladed ditto (indicative price by phone - not yet confirmed). £685, inc VAT, delivery extra

Axiom 4 bladed, their usual shape. £1049 inc VAT and delivery

 

I have yet to make a final decision!

 

Richard

[ditchcrawler]

I questioned the differential when it was going up and about 12p/l. All I could get from various sources was a load of pseudo-bullSh*t (so perhaps this isn't so far off topic after all).

 

I suspect it was because at the time the petrocos were getting a lot of flack over the price of fuel and everyone concentrated on the price of petrol. So no doubt they lowered the petrol price a bit more than they would have liked and recouped it on the diesel, which must now be a significant percentage of fuel sales even though people still equate fuel prices with petrol prices (hence all the fuss when petrol goes over £1/l).

This week I have seen petrol and diesel at the same station being sold for 101.9 p/l

 

Taken direct from Volvo's technical data for latest V70 2.4D Diesel model.....

 

Fuel consumption (combined cycle)

 

6 Speed manual box - 47.1 MPG

6 speed automatic box - 41.5 MPG

 

That's not a trivial difference - it's a very big difference, (automatic uses 13.5% more diesel), and bad news for the planet.

 

Great on driver convenience, but rather more damaging than having fitted indicators rather than having to stick your arm out to signal with.

 

Lets hope an Axiom propped boat doesn't also need 13.5% more diesel.

Its still better than my Rangerover that does 25 MPG on a good day

[Phoenix_V]

Following this topic and related ones with interest (apart from the auto gearbox diversion that is) as I shall be propping my new boat soon.

Gibbo have you fitted an axiom yet, if not are you still going to, has anyone got a scan of the ym article they could send me