Vegetable Oil

[Theo]

I have heard in the past few days one or two advocating the use of vegetable oil in diesel engines. Not straight but diluted at the rate of 1:3. This oil is just as you buy it from the supermarket. Is this a reasonable thing to do?

 

My Mikuni uses the same tank as the engine. Would this mixture b****r it up?

 

A related question: would it be reasonable to filter my old engine oil and use a proportion of that as propulsion fuel. WW was did an article about using old lube oil in a vintage engine a while ago.

 

Happy New Year

 

Nick

[Yoda]

I have heard in the past few days one or two advocating the use of vegetable oil in diesel engines. Not straight but diluted at the rate of 1:3. This oil is just as you buy it from the supermarket. Is this a reasonable thing to do? Yes but the oil must be clean

My Mikuni uses the same tank as the engine. Would this mixture b****r it up? Probably

 

A related question: would it be reasonable to filter my old engine oil and use a proportion of that as propulsion fuel. WW was did an article about using old lube oil in a vintage engine a while ago. Yes, you can use old engine oil but it must be cleaned

Happy New Year

 

Nick

 

You can also use kerosene when the engine is hot.

[Athy]

The last litre bottle of veg. oil which I bought in a supermarket cost over £1. Would this be more economical than red diesel? And wouldn't the engine exude an aroma of full English breakfast?

[Greybeard]

http://www.nowpublic.com/environment/air-n...es-jatropha-oil

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business...aii-764606.html

 

Don't think it's pure enough for my eber though!!!!!!

[Tony Brooks]

I have heard in the past few days one or two advocating the use of vegetable oil in diesel engines. Not straight but diluted at the rate of 1:3. This oil is just as you buy it from the supermarket. Is this a reasonable thing to do?

 

My Mikuni uses the same tank as the engine. Would this mixture b****r it up?

 

A related question: would it be reasonable to filter my old engine oil and use a proportion of that as propulsion fuel. WW was did an article about using old lube oil in a vintage engine a while ago.

 

Happy New Year

 

Nick

 

 

The BMC 1.5 & 1.8 use a DPx pump (DPA for the 1.5) in which the distributor shaft rotates in a close fitting bore. Personally I would be very reluctant to run it on anything that is more viscous than diesel because I know from various Internet resources that the DPx series of pump do to take kindly to a reduction in the lubrication of that part.

 

I understand some enthusiasts have machined a helical lubrication groove in the shaft, but I would be reluctant to advise this.

 

I am sure inline and single element pump (like air cooled Listers) will fairly happy with a more viscous fuel whilst the rotating and reciprocation motion of the distributor shaft in the rotary pumps (Bosch - Ford XLD) probably helps to maintain lubrication with more viscous fuels.

 

For me the bottom line is, ignoring things like oxidation, water absorption, waxing & solvent effects, by all means try it in the summer on anything with an in-line pump. Dilute with diesel (say 50%?) on a Bosch rotary pump and never try it on a DPx pump unless you intend to renew it anyway. You need to check the "ignore" list though.

[andy1]

The BMC 1.5 & 1.8 use a DPx pump (DPA for the 1.5) in which the distributor shaft rotates in a close fitting bore. Personally I would be very reluctant to run it on anything that is more viscous than diesel because I know from various Internet resources that the DPx series of pump do to take kindly to a reduction in the lubrication of that part.

 

I understand some enthusiasts have machined a helical lubrication groove in the shaft, but I would be reluctant to advise this.

 

I am sure inline and single element pump (like air cooled Listers) will fairly happy with a more viscous fuel whilst the rotating and reciprocation motion of the distributor shaft in the rotary pumps (Bosch - Ford XLD) probably helps to maintain lubrication with more viscous fuels.

 

For me the bottom line is, ignoring things like oxidation, water absorption, waxing & solvent effects, by all means try it in the summer on anything with an in-line pump. Dilute with diesel (say 50%?) on a Bosch rotary pump and never try it on a DPx pump unless you intend to renew it anyway. You need to check the "ignore" list though.

 

 

I bought a old (1998) ford transit just to use to commute to work and back ,it was as cheep as chips so i thought i would try vegi oil with the attitude that when it brakes i will scrap it ,for the last 12000 miles it has not seen any diesel at all and it has run on hydrolic oil/vegi oil 10/40s engine oil/ kerisene/old sump oil and a mixture of eather , it starts first turn everytime and pulls spot on . I now mainly run it on streight vegi oil from costco at 74p a litre. it will brake aventually but when it does it will be scraped , but as said above you have to be verycarefull if using it in anything worth a few quid. rgds andy

Edited December 31, 2008 by andy1

[estwdjhn]

If its got a lucas DPA pump don't let veg oil near it.

 

I had an old SIIA Landrover, with the 2.25D engine, I ran it all one summer on SVO, gradually increasing the percentage. Eventually I was running around happily on 100%. Then I went on hoilday, and did half a dozen short trips.

The injector pump seized solid, and took the camshaft drive with it.

I think the only reason that she survied so long on the suff is that I mostly commuted to work in her, and that meant a long steep climb straight after startup in both directions, which would have got the engine hot very quickly.

 

In a boat, most of the time the engine isn't worked hard, so the warmup will be slow. I would suggest that its lifespan could well be under a week on SVO.

 

The other thing to consider is that at the moment, the veg oil in my cupboard is near solid, and won't come out of the bottle - the same thing in your fuel tank, and it will be like problems with waxing diesel to the power 10...

[Rick-n-Jo]

If its got a lucas DPA pump don't let veg oil near it.

 

I had an old SIIA Landrover, with the 2.25D engine, I ran it all one summer on SVO, gradually increasing the percentage. Eventually I was running around happily on 100%. Then I went on hoilday, and did half a dozen short trips.

The injector pump seized solid, and took the camshaft drive with it.

I think the only reason that she survied so long on the suff is that I mostly commuted to work in her, and that meant a long steep climb straight after startup in both directions, which would have got the engine hot very quickly.

 

In a boat, most of the time the engine isn't worked hard, so the warmup will be slow. I would suggest that its lifespan could well be under a week on SVO.

 

The other thing to consider is that at the moment, the veg oil in my cupboard is near solid, and won't come out of the bottle - the same thing in your fuel tank, and it will be like problems with waxing diesel to the power 10...

 

........Which is why some folk go to all the trouble of chemically converting it to bio-diesel!

 

I'd like to know how the economics of DIY bio-diesel stack up now, with the new tax regime. I suspect probably OK if you use a lot for propulsion (and declare it) but how about against red/heating oil?

 

Rick

[estwdjhn]

I can get Red for domestic use (I.e. untaxed) at 49p a litre in drums via my mates farm, or 65p from the coal boat(that might have dropped by now, that figure is from a month ago).

Doesn't really make SVO worth it unless you use an awful lot for propulsion. At 73p a litre from the cheepest souce going, against sticking pump white in at 97.9p.

I will be declaring about 20/80 given that most of my engine hours are for battery charging. For the small amount crusing diesel I use, its just not worth the effort.

[OptedOut]

With the right injector pump it's still better to run the veg oil through a heater

[Tony Brooks]

I bought a old (1998) ford transit just to use to commute to work and back ,it was as cheep as chips so i thought i would try vegi oil with the attitude that when it brakes i will scrap it ,for the last 12000 miles it has not seen any diesel at all and it has run on hydrolic oil/vegi oil 10/40s engine oil/ kerisene/old sump oil and a mixture of eather , it starts first turn everytime and pulls spot on . I now mainly run it on streight vegi oil from costco at 74p a litre. it will brake aventually but when it does it will be scraped , but as said above you have to be verycarefull if using it in anything worth a few quid. rgds andy

 

This is much as I expect - especially if its a Bosch pump. I would be less inclined to try it with one of the other makes of rotary pump.

[n.b.Goldie]

........Which is why some folk go to all the trouble of chemically converting it to bio-diesel!

 

I'd like to know how the economics of DIY bio-diesel stack up now, with the new tax regime. I suspect probably OK if you use a lot for propulsion (and declare it) but how about against red/heating oil?

 

Rick

We find that used vegetable oil from chip shops etc after processing gives us a litre of bio-diesel for about 15p. If we have to buy new oil then the cost of that has to be added to the processing costs. Buy new in bulk from the cheapest source you can. Ask the chip shops, restaurents etc where they get theirs.

 

USING UNPROCESSED VEGETABLE OIL OF ANY DILUTION FACTOR IN A MODERN DIESEL IS JUST PLAIN BAD PRACTISE AND WILL LEAD TO PROBLEMS. Don't know about vintage engines though.

 

The regulations regarding bio-diesel are generous to the private brewer, we can brew up to 2700 litres per annum! There is no requirement to maintain paper-work or register with HMRC. Non of the brew can be sold on or used for any commercial use. The private brewer can use home brew in their own road going diesel car or in their boat, both are perfectly legal. It is illegal to use red diesel oil on the road. It is illegal to use red diesel in a boat unless proper duty has been paid and always illegal to use unprocessed vegetable oil in either vehicle! If you plan to brew more than 2700 litres or use it commercially (farmers etc.) BUT NOT SELL IT then you must register with HMRC and maintain paperwork. The duty you will then have to pay will be about 15p per litre. Still not bad value

 

Hope this helps but you will need a very substantial boat to house the brewing equipment!

Edited January 1, 2009 by ditchdabbler

[David Schweizer]

We find that used vegetable oil from chip shops etc after processing gives us a litre of bio-diesel for about 15p. If we have to buy new oil then the cost of that has to be added to the processing costs. Buy new in bulk from the cheapest source you can. Ask the chip shops, restaurents etc where they get theirs.

 

USING UNPROCESSED VEGETABLE OIL OF ANY DILUTION FACTOR IN A MODERN DIESEL IS JUST PLAIN BAD PRACTISE AND WILL LEAD TO PROBLEMS. Don't know about vintage engines though.

The regulations regarding bio-diesel are generous to the private brewer, we can brew up to 2700 litres per annum! There is no requirement to maintain paper-work or register with HMRC. Non of the brew can be sold on or used for any commercial use. The private brewer can use home brew in their own road going diesel car or in their boat, both are perfectly legal. It is illegal to use red diesel or unprocessed vegetable oil in either vehicle! If you plan to brew more than 2700 litres or use it commercially (farmers etc.) BUT NOT SELL IT then you must register with HMRC and maintain paperwork. The duty you will then have to pay will be about 15p per litre. Still not bad value

 

Hope this helps but you will need a very substantial boat to house the brewing equipment!

Tony Redfern the Vintage Engine Specialist in Braunston has been experimenting with running Vintage Engines on Vegetable oil. He had one running at the Braunston Boat Show in 2008, I think it was a Kelvin but am not sure. He said that apart from some minor adjustments, the engine seems to run quite happily on it.

[Justme]

I bought a old (1998) ford transit just to use to commute to work and back ------

 

Edited out

 

----but as said above you have to be verycarefull if using it in anything worth a few quid. rgds andy

 

You might want to remove your post. Whilst using pure veg oil upto 2500L per year IS legal if you add ANYTHING to it that is not a fully taxed road fuel you are then liable for the FULL duty on ALL the fuel not just the additive.

 

 

Justme

[plainsman]

You can also use kerosene when the engine is hot.

 

Why is this? I thought kerosene is 'lighter' than diesel and if anything needed to be thickened up by adding engine oil. I seem to recall a post on this in the archive. Ignoring the legalities of such a practice I would appreciate your views on the technicalities.

 

Happy New Year

Alex

[lazyboy]

If you had a new modern engine would using any type of alternative bio fuel invalidate your warranty if the engine developed a fuel related problem.

[bottle]

Yes.

 

 

Only run any new engine exactly as the manufacturer states, any deviation will negate the warranty.

[OptedOut]

May be some bits of useful info here.

 

http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/index.php

[alan_fincher]

Tony Redfern the Vintage Engine Specialist in Braunston has been experimenting with running Vintage Engines on Vegetable oil.

I suspect you mean Tony Redshaw, David ?

[David Schweizer]

I suspect you mean Tony Redshaw, David ?

I knew that!

[Tony Brooks]

Yes.

 

 

Only run any new engine exactly as the manufacturer states, any deviation will negate the warranty.

 

 

Or maybe No. One British mariniser has experimented with bio-diesel and as log as its made to EN4142? (sorry can't remember the standard off the top of my head) told me they would carry the guarantee and accept it, however that was a couple of years ago so they might have changed. What is far more disgraceful is that all the injection equipment manufacturers have issued a statement saying their equipment must not be run with bio-diesel and if so they would not honour the warranter. Again this was dated 2004, but I have not head a whisper about an update.

 

The situation is that we have an international standard for bio-diesel but unless someone knows different the equipment manufacturers will not guarantee their equipment with it - even very modern systems like my VAG/Bosch one.

 

I suspect its because no one will do the pollution tests with bio but it all looks like a cartel to me with collusion between the FIE companies, engine manufacturers and the oil companies whilst governments allow them to continue.

 

To add insult to injury as governments insist of ever greater percentages of bio-diesel in ordinary road diesel (derv) EN490 it seem the FIE and engine companies accept it because "it is still EN490 derv" which is plainly not the case.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Tony Brooks

[Nickhlx]

Yes.

 

 

Only run any new engine exactly as the manufacturer states, any deviation will negate the warranty.

 

 

How then is it explained that when a given engine is used in a road vehicle and uses white diesel and when in a canal boat it uses red diesel ?

 

The differences are significant in quality ( sulphur content for one) so that immediately gives a range of sulphur content ( ? 50 ppm to ? 500 ppm ? - I don't know the figures ) and presumably viscosity and lubricity are different... so a range of parameters must exist.

 

Modern engine manufacturers DE-tune engines so that they work on the range of qualities of fuels available in the host countries...

 

i.e how can an engine be run EXACTLY as the manufacturer intended when they acknowledge that a RANGE of fuels will be encountered

 

Nick

[lazyboy]

I agree with you, From my own experience the very latest emmissions compliant engines destined for the inland waterway market are clearly labeled by the engine maker that they must only be run on low or ultra low sulpher fuel.

[bottle]

Gentlemen

 

I stated that: Only run any new engine exactly as the manufacturer states, any deviation will negate the warranty.

 

Perhaps instead of manufacturer I should have said mariniser.

 

I still stand by the previous statement and the 'adjusted' one.

 

Any manufacturer will use any means possible to get out of a warranty claim, even using the wrong filter has been used to try to get out of warranty work. (allegedly )

 

If an engine is run exactly as manufacturer/mariniser states they and you will not have any problems.

[Tony Brooks]

How then is it explained that when a given engine is used in a road vehicle and uses white diesel and when in a canal boat it uses red diesel ?

 

The differences are significant in quality ( sulphur content for one) so that immediately gives a range of sulphur content ( ? 50 ppm to ? 500 ppm ? - I don't know the figures ) and presumably viscosity and lubricity are different... so a range of parameters must exist.

 

Modern engine manufacturers DE-tune engines so that they work on the range of qualities of fuels available in the host countries...

 

i.e how can an engine be run EXACTLY as the manufacturer intended when they acknowledge that a RANGE of fuels will be encountered

 

Nick

 

 

This illustrates what I was saying about the FIE manufacturers. Having got hold of their document stating that only EN490 Derv may be used in their equipment I contacted Bosch and asked them to comment on the fact that thousands or tens of thousands of engines, my own boat included, are run on BS??? (sorry, cant remember the number off hand) gas oil. The result - deafening silence.

 

I also have a verbal statement from Exxon Mobile that "there are all sorts of different diesel" when I was trying to pursue some Esso "diesel" marked EN490 that smelt and felt like white spirit.

 

There is something very odd about the manufacturers' attitude to EN4??? bio-diesel and we, the users are possibly paying for it.