Typical width between mooring piers

[David Mack]

34 minutes ago, BCN Challenge said:

It has made me wonder how Fulbourne fares with getting in and out.

As I said, 'interesting'. I have done it with Fulbourne and Belfast, both of which are currently moored there.

[BEngo]

Circus Field was laid out by a very experienced boater, ( not me!)  over a huge number of attempts  as, inter alia,  the Council, BW, CRT, planning and financial constraints emerged.  One of the fundamental assumptions was that steerers would be able to handle their boats.

 

Fulbourne, Exe, Belfast and Pica all seem to get in and out from the West End without major drama.  Going  steady helps, as others  ( who perhaps did not) 99have demonstrated.

 Getting out of the East End is also not that difficult, even with a boat alongside between the bank and the bridge.  Go steady, be prepared to use a shaft or a rope off the bank  and it is done.  There will of course always be an audience😇🤞.

 

Getting out under the bridge can be harder if the wind is in the East, buf again a shaft or a rope sorts it out.

 

N

[Phoenix_V]

The marina in Valenciennes France does seem to have rather overdone this in some bays particularly as there can be a current here when the (automatic) weir at the far end opens. I imagine these 2 dont go out a lot. Personal view is that anything less than 1m if there is likely to be any current or a windy location is sooner or later going to end in tears.

[Mike Todd]

Having calculated the number of spaces possible in a given run, and then rounded down to an integer, some designers may choose to distribute the parts space left over across all the spaces evenly rather than have an untidy odd width at the end.

[MoominPapa]

On 28/10/2024 at 10:12, Alan de Enfield said:

I always found it strange that caravan parks have very strict regulation for the spacing between vans - and the spacings between bases are measured before the licence is finally granted.

 

Why do caravans require a minimum of 7 mts, (and the recommendation is 10mts), between them (and no sheds etc allowed to reduce the gap) whilst, when boats are moored up they have about 2 feet of spacing between them.

 

Both must have a similar fire risk (LPG) and maybe boats are even a higher risk due to an 'open fire' and the availability of diesel/petrol.

 

The obvious difference is that caravans are, for practical purposes, immovable on the timescale of a fire incident, so there's a risk of a chain reaction and the whole lot going up. On the other hand, whilst you may not be able to move the boats next to a burning boat safely you can certainly move the ones further away to isolate the fire and stop repeated spread.

 

MP

 

Edited October 30, 2024 by MoominPapa

[dmr]

On 28/10/2024 at 08:35, magpie patrick said:

Eyup, a straightforward (I hope) question. In many marinas there are rows of piers which two narrow boats are expected to fit between. How far apart should these be? I've always specified five metres, (just over 16 feet) so that properly secured boats can have some fendering between the boat and the pier and still not touch each other, but I've never found a standard or documented best practice. I've a feeling the old BW marina development guide had one, but they have withdrawn that so it's no longer online. 

 

I don't do detailed design so I've only ever needed approximate figures to work out how big the marina needs to be or how many boats will fit in a given space.

 

Any thoughts? Or anyone fancy measuring the distance at the marina they are in?

 

Thanks

 

I had to do a bit of mooring design a couple of years ago and was surprised that there is almost no useful information online. I did find one quite good document but it was Australian so aimed at coastal stuff and obviously not narrowboats😀 . It did specify widths for pontoons and connecting walkways which were a lot wider than most of our canal marinas.

[Tonka]

17 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

I had to do a bit of mooring design a couple of years ago and was surprised that there is almost no useful information online. I did find one quite good document but it was Australian so aimed at coastal stuff and obviously not narrowboats😀 . It did specify widths for pontoons and connecting walkways which were a lot wider than most of our canal marinas.

Hard to put a minimum size between piers on sea marinas as the boats come in different beams.

[dmr]

4 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Hard to put a minimum size between piers on sea marinas as the boats come in different beams.

Yes, thats likelyt why they only specify the widths 😀

[Francis Herne]

Maximum capacity can of course be achieved by having a couple of hundred feet between 'piers'.

 

Getting a boat in or out of the lines can be quite an exercise, more so in winter when all the gaps seen in the picture fill up so there's no wiggle room.

It's particularly awkward if it's windy and you have a clothed-up empty butty, DAMHIK...

Edited October 30, 2024 by Francis Herne

[Naughty Cal]

On 29/10/2024 at 09:28, Phoenix_V said:

The marina in Valenciennes France does seem to have rather overdone this in some bays particularly as there can be a current here when the (automatic) weir at the far end opens. I imagine these 2 dont go out a lot. Personal view is that anything less than 1m if there is likely to be any current or a windy location is sooner or later going to end in tears.

In some ways we found a tight gap like that easier to get into.

 

With the bow in the gap and very gentle application of the throttle the boat found its own way in between the pontoon and adjacent boat and made it easier to tie up.

[Phoenix_V]

Its a bit like how they park their cars in France

[BCN Challenge]

20 hours ago, Francis Herne said:

Maximum capacity can of course be achieved by having a couple of hundred feet between 'piers'.

 

Getting a boat in or out of the lines can be quite an exercise, more so in winter when all the gaps seen in the picture fill up so there's no wiggle room.

It's particularly awkward if it's windy and you have a clothed-up empty butty, DAMHIK...

That’s how it should be. Canal boats are built for contact but it shouldn’t be gratuitous.

 

I love mooring at Hawne Basin. You drop your fenders on entry and go carefully but they are boat folk so there’s no need to be overly precious.

 

To be fair the folk at Circus Field Basin maybe aren’t that much different but the layout is such that contact feels like it should be avoided. I’ve always managed that but it takes a lot of adjustment once getting out from between the piers to align for the exit. From the comments above it clearly is a challenge for a single hander as it’s a little difficult to deploy a shaft at the bow when you’re at the helm.

 

Edited October 31, 2024 by BCN Challenge

[IanD]

2 hours ago, BCN Challenge said:

That’s how it should be. Canal boats are build for contact but it shouldn’t be gratuitous.

 

I love mooring at Hawne Basin. You drop your fenders on entry and go carefully but they are boat folk so there’s no need to be overly precious.

 

To be fair the folk at Circus Field Basin maybe aren’t that much different but the layout is such that contact feels like it should be avoided. I’ve always managed that but it takes a lot of adjustment once getting out from between the piers to align for the exit. From the comments above it clearly is a challenge for a single hander as it’s a little difficult to deploy a shaft at the bow when you’re at the helm.

If only there was a solution to that -- perhaps some clever device which the solo boater could use to push the bows sideways while at the helm... 😉

[Tonka]

10 hours ago, IanD said:

If only there was a solution to that -- perhaps some clever device which the solo boater could use to push the bows sideways while at the helm... 😉

Have you got an idea

[BCN Challenge]

10 hours ago, IanD said:

If only there was a solution to that -- perhaps some clever device which the solo boater could use to push the bows sideways while at the helm... 😉

Not much help when you’re collecting a boat that doesn’t have one fitted.

 

And I hardly need one on my own boat.

 

[IanD]

2 hours ago, BCN Challenge said:

Not much help when you’re collecting a boat that doesn’t have one fitted.

 

And I hardly need one on my own boat.

 

"From the comments above it clearly is a challenge for a single hander as it’s a little difficult to deploy a shaft at the bow when you’re at the helm."

 

So is your boat short, or do you have superhuman steering skills, or don't single-hand, or never visit that particular marina? 😉 

 

In case you didn't realise, I was just having a little poke at those who say that BTs/"girly buttons" are useless and only for incompetent boaters and they certainly don't ever want or need one and castigate those who say they are actually useful sometimes -- this being an obvious candidate... 🙂 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

23 hours ago, Francis Herne said:

Maximum capacity can of course be achieved by having a couple of hundred feet between 'piers'.

 

Getting a boat in or out of the lines can be quite an exercise, more so in winter when all the gaps seen in the picture fill up so there's no wiggle room.

It's particularly awkward if it's windy and you have a clothed-up empty butty, DAMHIK...

seems common amongst yards and basins. 
Sherborne Wharf in Birmingham comes to mind and Sowerby Bridge. Both I’ve moored at, at one time or another. 

oh, and Glascote basin,

take a ganders at that and work out what you’d do if you were moored in far corner and hadn’t pre warned the yard you wanted to take your boat out

3 hours ago, BCN Challenge said:

Not much help when you’re collecting a boat that doesn’t have one fitted.

You ever grateful/thankful if there is a bow thruster when delivering a boat? 
 

[BCN Challenge]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

"From the comments above it clearly is a challenge for a single hander as it’s a little difficult to deploy a shaft at the bow when you’re at the helm."

 

So is your boat short, or do you have superhuman steering skills, or don't single-hand, or never visit that particular marina? 😉 

 

In case you didn't realise, I was just having a little poke at those who say that BTs/"girly buttons" are useless and only for incompetent boaters and they certainly don't ever want or need one and castigate those who say they are actually useful sometimes -- this being an obvious candidate... 🙂 

My boat is 35’ long, built as a mimic of a working tug and actually used as such today so it has features that help regarding manoeuvrability. It has a low cabin profile and sits very low in the water at the bow being of low freeboard and level trim so doesn’t become easily wind-bound.

I move different boats in and out of different marinas on a weekly basis. I know which can be difficult and Circus Field is a tight space. I’m a competent steerer and routinely use bow thrusters on boats that I move. Why wouldn’t I if they are provided? They can be extremely useful in marinas but often go unused outside. Rather like a ship in harbour and out at sea.

 

A key difference with a new to me boat is that I first find out how it handles when exiting a marina berth which adds a level of difficulty that doesn’t apply when manoeuvring my own boat.

 

And do you not think people make comments about bow thrusters to get a reaction from those that have them? It was you that started this particular line of discussion. I didn’t mention bow thrusters in relation to Circus Field because none of the boats I have collected there have had them fitted.

 

50 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

seems common amongst yards and basins. 
Sherborne Wharf in Birmingham comes to mind and Sowerby Bridge. Both I’ve moored at, at one time or another. 

oh, and Glascote basin,

take a ganders at that and work out what you’d do if you were moored in far corner and hadn’t pre warned the yard you wanted to take your boat out

You ever grateful/thankful if there is a bow thruster when delivering a boat? 
 

Yes, as above, in marinas. I think in some marinas and conditions reversing onto a specified berth can be pretty much impossible without them or some other aid (someone with a line).

 

I once moved a 70’ long and 21 tonne leviathan that had hydraulic drive and compensated hydraulic bow thrusters. That was good fun and very apt for that particular boat. It even had a bow camera and a little screen inside the helm.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, BCN Challenge said:

My boat is 35’ long, built as a mimic of a working tug and actually used as such today so it has features that help regarding manoeuvrability. It has a low cabin profile and sits very low in the water at the bow being of low freeboard and level trim so doesn’t become easily wind-bound.

I move different boats in and out of different marinas on a weekly basis. I know which can be difficult and Circus Field is a tight space. I’m a competent steerer and routinely use bow thrusters on boats that I move. Why wouldn’t I if they are provided? They can be extremely useful in marinas but often go unused outside. Rather like a ship in harbour and out at sea.

 

A key difference with a new to me boat is that I first find out how it handles when exiting a marina berth which adds a level of difficulty that doesn’t apply when manoeuvring my own boat.

 

And do you not think people make comments about bow thrusters to get a reaction from those that have them? It was you that started this particular line of discussion. I didn’t mention bow thrusters in relation to Circus Field because none of the boats I have collected there have had them fitted.

Yes, as above, in marinas. I think in some marinas and conditions reversing onto a specified berth can be pretty much impossible without them or some other aid (someone with a line).

 

I once moved a 70’ long and 21 tonne leviathan that had hydraulic drive and compensated hydraulic bow thrusters. That was good fun and very apt for that particular boat. It even had a bow camera and a little screen inside the helm.

 

It was a joke, hence the smiley... 😉 

[Mike Todd]

2 hours ago, BCN Challenge said:

My boat is 35’ long, built as a mimic of a working tug and actually used as such today so it has features that help regarding manoeuvrability. It has a low cabin profile and sits very low in the water at the bow being of low freeboard and level trim so doesn’t become easily wind-bound.

I move different boats in and out of different marinas on a weekly basis. I know which can be difficult and Circus Field is a tight space. I’m a competent steerer and routinely use bow thrusters on boats that I move. Why wouldn’t I if they are provided? They can be extremely useful in marinas but often go unused outside. Rather like a ship in harbour and out at sea.

 

A key difference with a new to me boat is that I first find out how it handles when exiting a marina berth which adds a level of difficulty that doesn’t apply when manoeuvring my own boat.

 

And do you not think people make comments about bow thrusters to get a reaction from those that have them? It was you that started this particular line of discussion. I didn’t mention bow thrusters in relation to Circus Field because none of the boats I have collected there have had them fitted.

 

Yes, as above, in marinas. I think in some marinas and conditions reversing onto a specified berth can be pretty much impossible without them or some other aid (someone with a line).

 

I once moved a 70’ long and 21 tonne leviathan that had hydraulic drive and compensated hydraulic bow thrusters. That was good fun and very apt for that particular boat. It even had a bow camera and a little screen inside the helm.

Some may well be trying to annoy others but I suspect (on admittedly scant but non-zero evidence) that having bow thrusters can lull some steerers into a false sense of security. I strongly suspect that bow thrusters cannot deal with all steering issues and there are times when boat handling skills are still needed. As with all aids, the real need (and skill) lies in knowing when to deploy and when not.

 

It is worth remembering that most bow thrusters are powered with batteries that have a very short usage cycle. Relying on them in a situation when they need to be used for a longer period is asking for trouble.

[IanD]

21 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Some may well be trying to annoy others but I suspect (on admittedly scant but non-zero evidence) that having bow thrusters can lull some steerers into a false sense of security. I strongly suspect that bow thrusters cannot deal with all steering issues and there are times when boat handling skills are still needed. As with all aids, the real need (and skill) lies in knowing when to deploy and when not.

 

It is worth remembering that most bow thrusters are powered with batteries that have a very short usage cycle. Relying on them in a situation when they need to be used for a longer period is asking for trouble.

 

That's a bit like saying that auto gearboxes on cars mean that drivers using them are incapable of using a clutch -- maybe some are, but most aren't. I'm sure Lewis Hamilton would disagree since IIRC he drives one, both privately and when racing... 😉 

 

Of course there are times -- lots of them! -- when boat handling skills are needed and a BT isn't. And there are other times -- like the one mentioned here -- where they're actually pretty useful. And then there are some boaters who use them all the time to steer the boat instead of the rudder... 😞 

 

The problem is when some boaters use this to suggest that having a BT is immediately a sign of being unable to steer, because "proper boaters" don't need them. Do they think the same applies to auto gearboxes on cars , or many other things invented since "the good old days"? How about central heating systems, does this mean all their owners don't know how to light a fire? Tarring everyone with the same brush is rarely a good idea...

 

Relying on a BT where they have to be used for long periods isn't a good idea, but I don't think many people use them like that anyway. Though it should be pointed out that modern PMAC ones don't have this problem anyway, they'll run for 10 minutes at full power and much longer at lower powers, far longer than they're ever going to be used in reality... 😉 

 

P.S. You do realise you took the bait? 🙂 

Edited October 31, 2024 by IanD

[Tonka]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

That's a bit like saying that auto gearboxes on cars mean that drivers using them are incapable of using a clutch -- maybe some are, but most aren't. I'm sure Lewis Hamilton would disagree since IIRC he drives one, both privately and when racing... 😉 

 

Of course there are times -- lots of them! -- when boat handling skills are needed and a BT isn't. And there are other times -- like the one mentioned here -- where they're actually pretty useful. And then there are some boaters who use them all the time to steer the boat instead of the rudder... 😞 

 

 

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

P.S. You do realise you took the bait? 🙂 

Can I ask, how do you use a bow thruster to steer the rudder

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, Tonka said:

 

Can I ask, how do you use a bow thruster to steer the rudder

According to English grammar rules, the boat is being steered, not the rudder... 😉 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

That's a bit like saying that auto gearboxes on cars mean that drivers using them are incapable of using a clutch -- maybe some are, but most aren't.

My American daughter in law was taught to drive an automatic car, as they are near universal over there. And when my son bought a manual gearbox mini she refused to drive it...

[IanD]

31 minutes ago, David Mack said:

My American daughter in law was taught to drive an automatic car, as they are near universal over there. And when my son bought a manual gearbox mini she refused to drive it...

A win all round for her then -- he has to drive, she gets to drink... 🙂