Have we past "Peak Canal Network"?

[Gybe Ho]

Forum members have probably heard of "peak oil". I am trying to understand what is happening to the canal network before buying a narrowboat.

 

A top concern of mine is a sense that the canal network has entered a period of rapid long-term decline as an operational/usable network. I have developed a suspicion the CRT is currently reducing the extent of the network through neglect but eventually there will be formal closures.

 

The neglect takes the form of:

• Reduced canal depth.
• Canals choked with summer aquatic weeds.
• Overhanging trees and bushes turning sections into single lane waterways.
• Leaking lock gates resulting in locks that won't drain.
• Random summer failures at locks due to poor winter maintenance.
• Water breakouts along the towpath that drain whole ponds.

 

There is some good news, apparently major restorations are in progress:

• Saul Junction to the upper Thames.
• K&A link to the Thames via Bath and Swindon.
• A 25 mile long arm to Grantham.
• Further extensions in mid Wales.

 

I understand the style of use of the canals is changing with more liveaboards, this I don't mind and is a human social factor I can quantify. But what I cannot quantify is a negative feeling that much of the CRT maintained infrastructure is on the verge of falling apart. Is the dam about to burst with stoppages overwhelming the CRTs reduced repair resources?

[Rob-M]

There has been various failures in the past that has closed sections of canals for long periods so not necessarily anything new.  As a kid Wast Hill tunnel had a collapse which shuts the Worcester Birmingham for a lengthy period, the M42 was built which was going to close the Worcester Birmingham for good but campaigning got a new section built to keep the canal open.

[Midnight]

5 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

Forum members have probably heard of "peak oil". I am trying to understand what is happening to the canal network before buying a narrowboat.

 

A top concern of mine is a sense that the canal network has entered a period of rapid long-term decline as an operational/usable network. I have developed a suspicion the CRT is currently reducing the extent of the network through neglect but eventually there will be formal closures.

 

The neglect takes the form of:

• Reduced canal depth.
• Canals choked with summer aquatic weeds.
• Overhanging trees and bushes turning sections into single lane waterways.
• Leaking lock gates resulting in locks that won't drain.
• Random summer failures at locks due to poor winter maintenance.
• Water breakouts along the towpath that drain whole ponds.

 

There is some good news, apparently major restorations are in progress:

• Saul Junction to the upper Thames.
• K&A link to the Thames via Bath and Swindon.
• A 25 mile long arm to Grantham.
• Further extensions in mid Wales.

 

I understand the style of use of the canals is changing with more liveaboards, this I don't mind and is a human social factor I can quantify. But what I cannot quantify is a negative feeling that much of the CRT maintained infrastructure is on the verge of falling apart. Is the dam about to burst with stoppages overwhelming the CRTs reduced repair resources?

Depends where you are. The Pennine canals have suffered more than their fair share of stoppages. It's common for all 3 to have stoppages at the same time, along with not so rare problems at Keadby, effectively closing Yorkshire. The Midlands and South seem to catching up but still generally have less issues.

 

We are seriously considering finding a mooring around Burton on Trent. Only the drive time is making us hesitate.

[MtB]

15 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

There is some good news, apparently major restorations are in progress:

• Saul Junction to the upper Thames.
• K&A link to the Thames via Bath and Swindon.
• A 25 mile long arm to Grantham.
• Further extensions in mid Wales.

 

 

In what way are these restorations "good news"?

 

Yes great if volunteers are doing the work but what happens when they are ready to open? Who is funding the open-ended cheque book necessary to keep them running? 

 

If CRT have their wits about them they will decline to add these newly restored navigations to the network. The last last thing CRT needs is more mileage to maintain, they can't even cope with the cost of properly maintaining the track they currently have. 

 

What we actually need is tolls to come back again. Charge boaters say, five quid a lock. That would at a stroke get rid of the unfairly cheap CC license and at the same time swell the CRT coffers so they can actually do their job properly. 

 

 

 

[David Mack]

17 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

the M42 was built which was going to close the Worcester Birmingham for good but campaigning got a new section built to keep the canal open.

By the time the M42 was built the Worcester and Birmingham was protected as Cruiseway under the 1968 Transport Act. It was never at risk of closure.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, MtB said:

What we actually need is tolls to come back again. Charge boaters say, five quid a lock. That would at a stroke get rid of the unfairly cheap CC license and at the same time swell the CRT coffers so they can actually do their job properly. 

 

And to keep your licence you must do at least 2 locks every day (or 14 per week) monitored by trackers fitted to the boat at the owners cost.

[Rob-M]

35 minutes ago, David Mack said:

By the time the M42 was built the Worcester and Birmingham was protected as Cruiseway under the 1968 Transport Act. It was never at risk of closure.

That wasn't the general feeling at Alvechurch, there was concern that the new section was not going to be constructed as it added serious costs to the M42.

Edited August 11 by Rob-M

[Lily Rose]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

And to keep your licence you must do at least 2 locks every day (or 14 per week) monitored by trackers fitted to the boat at the owners cost.

 

So if you're moored on the Ashby (as an example) you have to go down to Sutton Stop, go through the lock, head on to the nearest place wide enough to turn, then head back through Sutton Stop and hope that counts as two. Repeat daily.

 

You haven't thought this through have you?

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

That wasn't the general feeling at Alvechurch, there was concern that the new section was not going to be constructed as it added serious coats to the M42.

 

I like wearing a serious coat in the winter...

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

3 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

You haven't thought this through have you

They never do 😃

Just wind up merchants. 

[Arthur Marshall]

It's been declining since it ceased having much commercial traffic. A short burst by the enthusiasts got it up and running again with huge amounts of volunteer labour and fundraising.

It's been underfunded ever since. So it depends on how much you just like being on the water, as, blasphemous though it may seem to the heritage industry, one bit of city, countryside or industrial canal is very like every other city, countryside or industrial bit of canal, and so it doesn't really matter if there's not that many miles of it to bugger about on.

Most of it is green with cows, some of it is grey with graffiti and the rest of it is grey with broken windows.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Arthur Marshall said:

It's been declining since it ceased having much commercial traffic. A short burst by the enthusiasts got it up and running again with huge amounts of volunteer labour and fundraising.

It's been underfunded ever since. So it depends on how much you just like being on the water, as, blasphemous though it may seem to the heritage industry, one bit of city, countryside or industrial canal is very like every other city, countryside or industrial bit of canal, and so it doesn't really matter if there's not that many miles of it to bugger about on.

Most of it is green with cows, some of it is grey with graffiti and the rest of it is grey with broken windows.

 

Once in a while you donarf talk a lot of sense, Arthur. 

 

This is my experience too. Half a mile of my home mooring and I'm in the middle of nowhere, so much countryside its hard to cope with. 

 

On the other boat on its achingly trendy organic farm home mooring, I don't even need to do that. Just park the Audi next to the boat and get on with being "eco". Don't even have to fire up the vintage diesel....

 

No broken windows around here. So far.  One wouldn't want to tempt fate, eh ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

18 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

 

So if you're moored on the Ashby (as an example) you have to go down to Sutton Stop, go through the lock, head on to the nearest place wide enough to turn, then head back through Sutton Stop and hope that counts as two. Repeat daily.

 

You haven't thought this through have you?

 

 

Ahhh - but I didn't add the //joke// %$£ at the end (apparenty only understood by a programmer)

[Midnight]

44 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

In what way are these restorations "good news"?

 

Yes great if volunteers are doing the work but what happens when they are ready to open? Who is funding the open-ended cheque book necessary to keep them running? 

 

If CRT have their wits about them they will decline to add these newly restored navigations to the network. The last last thing CRT needs is more mileage to maintain, they can't even cope with the cost of properly maintaining the track they currently have. 

 

What we actually need is tolls to come back again. Charge boaters say, five quid a lock. That would at a stroke get rid of the unfairly cheap CC license and at the same time swell the CRT coffers so they can actually do their job properly. 

 

 

 

Hmmmm I was going to give you a greenie until I read the third paragraph. There isn't a green horror one

[Lily Rose]

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Ahhh - but I didn't add the //joke// %$£ at the end (apparenty only understood by a programmer)

 

Neither did I, it was just subtly implied.

[MtB]

16 minutes ago, Midnight said:

Hmmmm I was going to give you a greenie until I read the third paragraph. There isn't a green horror one

 

 

Que?

 

 

[Gybe Ho]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

In what way are these restorations "good news"?

 

Yes great if volunteers are doing the work but what happens when they are ready to open? Who is funding the open-ended cheque book necessary to keep them running? 

 

 

The same objection could be made for opening schools or buying a CT scanner for a hospital through community funding. Or how about training doctors, nothing but a £130k p/a financial liability them docs.

 

The Saul junction to Thames link would be an excellent network enhancement, likewise Bath to the Thames. A trip through the southern Cotswolds should prove popular.

 

Anyhow thanks for confirming my theory about peak network. If you were the CEO of the CRT, are there any sections you would close to balance the books?

1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

It's been declining since it ceased having much commercial traffic.

 

 

I thought the navigable network reached a low point in the 1970s? It sounds as though the decline was just halted in the 1980s?

[MtB]

8 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

If you were the CEO of the CRT, are there any sections you would close to balance the books?

 

Curious now. How do you know I'm not?

 

[IanD]

The biggest expansion to the system from restored canals was around the millennium when both the HNC and Rochdale reopened. These are both expensive to maintain (lots of locks, lots of hardware close to EOL), have very little traffic on them, and are classed as remainder waterways, so would seem to be prime candidates for closure -- in spite of the fact that they're fabulous canals, at least when they're open which is not that often nowadays... 😞

 

However as confirmed by a poster who was actually involved in funding negotiations for them, this would result in CART having to repay a large part of the the grant funding used to pay for the restoration, the sum likely to be tens of millions of pounds -- which would vastly exceed any savings from closure, even over many years.

 

Closing cruising or commercial waterways -- most of the canal system, where most of the money goes -- is much more difficult, IIRC an Act of Parliament is required and the government has lots of far more important things to worry about...

Edited August 11 by IanD

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

However as confirmed by a poster who was actually involved in funding negotiations for them, this would result in CART having to repay a large part of the the grant funding used to pay for the restoration, the sum likely to be tens of millions of pounds -- which would vastly exceed any savings from closure, even over many years.

 

So we end up with an "Irresistable force meets immoveable object" type of situation. CRT can't afford to maintain these stupidly epensive navigations and neither can it afford to divest itself of responsibility. 

 

How will it pan out? CRT heading for insolvency obviously. Any bets on how long it will take for them to go bust?

 

I'll kick orf by suggesting fifteen years from now. 

 

 

[IanD]

Just now, MtB said:

 

So we end up with an "Irresistable force meets immoveable object" type of situation. CRT can't afford to maintain these stupidly epensive navigations and neither can it afford to divest itself of responsibility. 

 

How will it pan out? CRT heading for insolvency obviously. Any bets on how long it will take for them to go bust?

 

I'll kick orf by suggesting fifteen years from now. 

 

 

That rather depends on whether they can either persuade the government or boaters to cough up considerably more money. If neither happens then it could well happen sooner than 15 years from now...

 

If CART go bust then -- like with the railways -- the canals will revert to being the responsibility of the government, since they owned them (via BW) in the first place.

[MtB]

10 minutes ago, IanD said:

If CART go bust then -- like with the railways -- the canals will revert to being the responsibility of the government, since they owned them (via BW) in the first place.

 

 

Hmmmm I'd forgotten that. 

 

So when the CRT hits the fan, the waterways minister (knowing nothing about canals obviously) will orfer them to be shut down, filled in and the land sold. The slight problem with this is the 7,000 liveaboards who will be made homeless and entitled to council houses, at which point keeping the canals open might seem like not so bad an idea. 

 

So, all these new boaters swarming onto the cut for acdommodation are possibly quite a good insurance policy....

 

 

 

 

 

[Slim]

47 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

The Saul junction to Thames link would be an excellent network enhancement, likewise Bath to the Thames. A trip through the southern Cotswolds should prove popular.

Absolutely true but popular with who ? A few thousand boaters many of whom complain bitterly at the prospect of above inflation license increases! I don't pretend to know exactly what proportion of  CRTs income comes from boaters but I'm pretty sure most comes from taxpayers one way or another. Sadly that well has run dry. 

14 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Hmmmm I'd forgotten that. 

 

So when the CRT hits the fan, the waterways minister (knowing nothing about canals obviously) will orfer them to be shut down, filled in and the land sold. The slight problem with this is the 7,000 liveaboards who will be made homeless and entitled to council houses, at which point keeping the canals open might seem like not so bad an idea. 

 

So, all these new boaters swarming onto the cut for acdommodation are possibly quite a good insurance policy....

 

 

 

 

 

How many of your 7000 qualify for council accommodation. I suspect very few. Also the run down will not happen overnight so any impact will appear minimal. 

[matty40s]

2 hours ago, Midnight said:

The Midlands and South seem to catching up but still generally have less issues.

Believe me, after coming up the GU, it isnt far off a single, or multiple issues closing it for.major periods.

[Gybe Ho]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

So, all these new boaters swarming onto the cut for acdommodation are possibly quite a good insurance policy....

 

 

"Swarming", you make them sound like an infestation. Don't hold back, tell us what you really think about continuous cruisers.

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Curious now. How do you know I'm not?

 

 

You mentioned in another post that you are well into retirement.

47 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Believe me, after coming up the GU, it isnt far off a single, or multiple issues closing it for.major periods.

 

Ah finally someone comments with recent realworld experience.

 

Do you think the rate of decline is accelerating?