Tried to view a boat - refused a viewing unless I have finance already in place?

[CliveH]

Hi everyone, after hiring boats in the past and enjoying the lifestyle I have started search for my own boat. 
 

There was a boat close to me in Cambridgeshire that I wanted to see so I called the (well-known) broker who were advertising it.
 

after taking some initial details I was asked how I was planning to finance a boat, I said I had about a third of the cost in cash, perhaps half, and I would look into financing the rest when I find a boat I want. 
 

m I was then told that I can only be given a viewing when I have finance already in place to buy the boat I wanted to see. 
 

Is this normal?? I find it quite bizarre that I cannot even look at a boat this company advertises without having had a credit search and been approved for a loan first. What if the boat is a piece of junk? Do I need to do this for every boat I look at? It seems quite ridiculous to me. 
 

Anyone had this experience? 
 

Many thanks,

Clive 

[Paul C]

Just go back and tell them you now have your own financing in place, and effectively you are a cash buyer.

[ditchcrawler]

Just don't tell them you need a loan

[CliveH]

It’s a bit late now, they have my details. Besides, when I questioned why I would need to have finance in place for a boat I hadn’t seen and that I found it rather odd the person I spoke to became quite short with me, saying yes well they’re one of the biggest brokers in the country so just be doing something right etc They apparently don’t want to send an agent unless they know I’m a ‘serious buyer’ which apparently means already having finance agreed. I ended the phone call quickly. I’d rather not deal with them again. 
 

 

 

[robtheplod]

Im guessing brokers get quite a lot of people just browsing without any intention of buying..?

[Tracy D'arth]

It never was normal but I have heard of several "brokers" acting this way recently.  Perhaps they are sick of the tyre kickers wasting their time but that is all part of selling these days.

I have little sympathy for such firms.  It was much better when most boat sales were private.

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, CliveH said:

They apparently don’t want to send an agent unless they know I’m a ‘serious buyer’

 

 

That is very understandable if the boat is not being sold from' their marina / premises'. More and more boats are being sold from their 'home mooring' meaning that they have to send an employee 'hundreds of miles' to open it up for you.

 

Some brokers just operate on-line and do not have any premises and they just sell boats anywhere in the coutry from the 'waterside' wherever they are.

 

Some details of the broker and the boats actual location may make things clearer.

Edited May 3 by Alan de Enfield

[CliveH]

Yes I can imagine they do get lots of window shoppers, it must be frustrating, and I was asked several questions about why I wanted to view, my budget etc and I felt I was fairly comprehensive in my answers as I have done plenty of research before deciding what to start looking at. I assumed this preamble was part of the weeding out process 

 

But alas I need to go through a credit approval process before viewing. I don’t intend to buy the very first boat I see without seeing a few other examples and other boat brands too, that would be foolish. I would end up with dozens of credit searches this way. 
 

I guess I’ll simply need to avoid that broker when I’m browsing in future. 

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

That is very understandable if the boat is not being sold from' their marina / premises'. More and more boats are being sold from their 'home mooring' meaning that they have to send an employee 'hundreds of miles' to open it up for you.

 

Some brokers just operate on-line and do not have any premises and they just sell boats anywhere in the coutry from the 'waterside' wherever they are.

 

Some details of the broker and the boats actual location may make things clearer.

I do understand they don’t want to waste their time with hull kickers, but having to prove you’re a serious buyer by taking out finance on a boat just to view it seems quite excessive. Perhaps this is why the boat has been for sale since last July and has dropped £7k in price. 

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, CliveH said:

I would end up with dozens of credit searches this way. 

 

Surely as with a "mortgage in principle" you get a 'loan in principal' and, as it will be a personal loan and not a morgage (won't it ?) once you have an agreement that'll be usable on any boat.

You will not need multiple credit searches.

[CliveH]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Surely as with a "mortgage in principle" you get a 'loan in principal' and, as it will be a personal loan and not a morgage (won't it ?) once you have an agreement that'll be usable on any boat.

You will not need multiple credit searches.

I can see what you mean, but that ties me in to a certain amount of credit and fixes my budget to an extent, and some marine finance companies require the details of the specific boat (age for example) before they will lend. That is what I was planning to use. 
 

Not sure I could get an unsecured personal loan for the amount I need. 

[zenataomm]

This smacks of "applying to be a customer".

Name the broker, I am sure there are many vendors who might take a dim view of placing their craft in the hands of an agent who then places obstacles in potential buyers' path.

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, CliveH said:

I can see what you mean, but that ties me in to a certain amount of credit and fixes my budget to an extent, and some marine finance companies require the details of the specific boat (age for example) before they will lend. That is what I was planning to use. 
 

Not sure I could get an unsecured personal loan for the amount I need. 

 

If you are looking at a marine mortgage - that is a very different kettle of fish.

 

You may well find that to be granted a marine mortgage it will be a condition that the boat will need to be 'Part 1' registered on the Government Boat registration system.

A boat can obviously be moved (stolen)  and relies on the fact that the boat is registered and traceable or it becomes an unnaceptable risk.

 

It is virtually unknown for a canal boat to be part 1 registered as the cost of registration is horrendous and complicated.

 

I'd suggest that you speak to a marine mortgage provider and just find out what they need.

 

 

Part 1 registration - commercial or pleasure boats

You can use Part 1 of the register if you have either:

• a commercial boat, unless you plan to use it for fishing
• a ‘pleasure vessel’ - this means you do not make any money from it

Registering your boat on Part 1 of the register means you’ll be able to:

• get a marine mortgage against your boat
• spend more than 6 months outside the UK

It costs £153 to register for 5 years.

You’ll be sent a renewal notice when it’s time to renew. It costs £72 to renew your registration for another 5 years.

 

You’ll need:

• the dimensions of your boat
• the previous registration details of the boat (if it’s been registered before)
• the bill of sale
• the radio signal detail - including your UK radio call sign, Maritime Mobile Service Identity (MMSI) number and International Maritime Organization (IMO) number
• the builders certificate
• a certificate of survey for tonnage and measurement
• an international tonnage certificate (ITC69)
• safety certificates

Edited May 3 by Alan de Enfield

[blackrose]

51 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

Im guessing brokers get quite a lot of people just browsing without any intention of buying..?

 

Fender kickers

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, CliveH said:

There was a boat close to me in Cambridgeshire that I wanted to see so I called the (well-known) broker who were advertising it.

 

 

What sort of boat is it ?

Is it a canal narrowboat, or a big GRP cruiser, or ????????????

[blackrose]

9 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

This smacks of "applying to be a customer".

Name the broker, I am sure there are many vendors who might take a dim view of placing their craft in the hands of an agent who then places obstacles in potential buyers' path.

 

Name & Shame! And then call the vendor back to tell them you're active on canal-based social media.

 

I'd be furious if I was paying a broker 6% to sell my boat and then discovered that they were preventing people from viewing it.

[CliveH]

15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If you are looking at a marine mortgage - that is a very different kettle of fish.

 

You may well find that to be granted a marine mortgage the boat will need to be 'Part 1' registered on the Government Bat registration system.

 

It is virtually unknown for a canal boat to be part 1 registered as the cost of registration is horrendous and complicated.

 

I'd suggest that you speak to a marine mortgage provider and just find out what they need.

 

 

Part 1 registration - commercial or pleasure boats

You can use Part 1 of the register if you have either:

• a commercial boat, unless you plan to use it for fishing
• a ‘pleasure vessel’ - this means you do not make any money from it

Registering your boat on Part 1 of the register means you’ll be able to:

• get a marine mortgage against your boat
• spend more than 6 months outside the UK

It costs £153 to register for 5 years.

You’ll be sent a renewal notice when it’s time to renew. It costs £72 to renew your registration for another 5 years.

 

You’ll need:

• the dimensions of your boat
• the previous registration details of the boat (if it’s been registered before)
• the bill of sale
• the radio signal detail - including your UK radio call sign, Maritime Mobile Service Identity (MMSI) number and International Maritime Organization (IMO) number
• the builders certificate
• a certificate of survey for tonnage and measurement
• an international tonnage certificate (ITC69)
• safety certificates

Thank you, that’s interesting to know. I have looked at one company (Pegasus I think?) who offer specific loans against narrow boats, presumably secured against the boat like a car. Also Promarine but their rates seems a little high. 
 

I will have to call some lenders and get more details about the arrangements I think, particularly if I’m going to need finance in place simply to be considered worthy enough to view a boat 🤣

 

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

What sort of boat is it ?

Is it a canal narrowboat, or a big GRP cruiser, or ????????????

Forgive me, it’s a narrow boat. 
 

The broker is Nationwide. Strange way to run a business I must say. They said it’s ’standard practice’ in the industry. 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, CliveH said:

Thank you, that’s interesting to know. I have looked at one company (Pegasus I think?) who offer specific loans against narrow boats, presumably secured against the boat like a car.

 

 

Yes - and cars have number plates and are registered by a Government department so are traceable if someone tries to sell one that is on finance.

A 'normal' inland waterways boat has no such registration, no known owner, no 'log book' and no tracability, hence the requirement for mortgage lenders to have it registered.

 

It was always a requirement, but, you never know, it may have changed.

[CliveH]

13 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Name & Shame! And then call the vendor back to tell them you're active on canal-based social media.

 

I'd be furious if I was paying a broker 6% to sell my boat and then discovered that they were preventing people from viewing it.

It does seem bizarre, you’d think they would at least contact the owner and explain the situation. 
 

I’m actually considering nipping to the marina and trying to get a note to the owner and enquiring directly. Might save him a percentage haha 

[David Mack]

From their "The Buying Process" webpage:

 

"Funds in place? We will match you with potential boats.

Funds not quite ready? We will keep you updated with boats coming to the market until you are in a position to proceed.

Search online.

Found a Boat you like and funds in place, we can arrange a viewing."

 

So it seems it is their standard process, even if other brokers are different.

1 hour ago, CliveH said:

I don’t intend to buy the very first boat I see without seeing a few other examples and other boat brands too, that would be foolish.

So as far as this particular boat goes, you are indeed a fender kicker.

Get yourself off to Whilton and a couple of the other nearby brokerages which have boats you can just turn up and view, to get an idea of what you do and don't want. At the same time get some finance sorted in principle. This won't need a specific boat. Then you can look with confidence at boats in your price bracket.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, David Mack said:

From their "The Buying Process" webpage:

 

"Funds in place? We will match you with potential boats.

Funds not quite ready? We will keep you updated with boats coming to the market until you are in a position to proceed.

Search online.

Found a Boat you like and funds in place, we can arrange a viewing."

 

So it seems it is their standard process, even if other brokers are different.

 

 

One should also be aware of their 'return of deposit' T&Cs

 

• Deposit payments can be made by card and it is agreed that these payments are irrevocable.

Deposits will be refunded subject to survey by a qualified surveyor if:

• There are any major defects found with the hull or the engine exceeding 5% of the purchase price of the vessel (this does not include general maintenance e.g. blacking, engine service). The broker should be supplied with a full copy of the survey in order for a deposit to be returned based on the above clause.

Deposits will not be refunded if:

• You have not requested a survey and you decide that you do not want to continue with the purchase of the vessel.
• You have requested a survey but the survey has not been completed.

[CliveH]

21 minutes ago, David Mack said:

From their "The Buying Process" webpage:

 

"Funds in place? We will match you with potential boats.

Funds not quite ready? We will keep you updated with boats coming to the market until you are in a position to proceed.

Search online.

Found a Boat you like and funds in place, we can arrange a viewing."

 

So it seems it is their standard process, even if other brokers are different.

So as far as this particular boat goes, you are indeed a fender kicker.

Get yourself off to Whilton and a couple of the other nearby brokerages which have boats you can just turn up and view, to get an idea of what you do and don't want. At the same time get some finance sorted in principle. This won't need a specific boat. Then you can look with confidence at boats in your price bracket.

I’m not saying I won’t buy this boat and I’m just having a look with no intent, I’m very interested in it, but I will look at others.
 

I do take your point though, they have little way of telling a serious buyer from a fender kicker but surely that’s normal in this kind of industry, whether it’s cars, motor homes or a boat? I’ve certainly been left feeling fobbed off before when I’ve looked at cars at a dealer with an intent to buy. 
 

 

I’ll definitely have a trip to Whilton, it isn’t too far from me and I’ll be able to have good poke around a big selection, should help narrow my focus before I get the cold shoulder again lol

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, CliveH said:

I can see what you mean, but that ties me in to a certain amount of credit and fixes my budget to an extent, and some marine finance companies require the details of the specific boat (age for example) before they will lend. That is what I was planning to use. 
 

Not sure I could get an unsecured personal loan for the amount I need. 

Not sure you would get marine mortgage on a narrowboat.

The criteria  are , as always,  are you a good risk, eg good credit record, good steady income etc, etc.

That's life.

 

[matty40s]

The brokerage market in the last 3/4 years has been very fast moving, boats selling as soon as, or in some cases, before they appear on websites.

Brokers often get people wasting their time....if 5 viewings are arranged and 3 of those 5 havnt sold their houses yet....possibly 1 or 2 if those havnt even put it on the market yet....

This is especially so if the boat isnt actually AT a brokerage mooring, and being sold remotely....travelling out to a boat to find out that it could be next year before the prospective viewer is in a position to buy...

 

Which is why most brokerages try to weed out the fender kickers and serious buyers without the ready money YET,  with financial position questions. No boat seller is going to agree to a sale and deposit being taken on a boat if the deal will not complete within weeks.

It's not you Clive, it's the general market at the moment. If the boat has been there a while(price reduction indicates this), you may have more leverage. Perhaps leave your details with the brokerage and say you are prepared to visit at a similar time when they are already visiting with someone else...

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

Not sure you would get marine mortgage on a narrowboat.

 

There are 2 companies currently offering this exact facility, and it's how I purchased mine.

[PeterF]

Nationwide no longer have a physical base after leaving Great Haywood Marina as Lakeland took over the Marina and now run the marina brokerage themselves. Therefore they are selling boats from wherever the boat is located and as they accompany viewings this gives them additional time and staffing demands that marina based brokerages will not have. This may mean that they are culling the fender kickers more aggressively than other brokerages.

[Tony1]

 

I think many boat buyers, for very understandable reasons, have a tendency to want to start viewing boats when they are still at a very early stage in their overall 'buying lifecycle'.  In fact, I think some will start viewing boats before they've 100% finalised their decision to actually buy a boat.

It's an exciting time for them- they want to see various layouts, get inside some boats, etc. 

Whilton is great for a potential buyer who is at that very early stage in the process. 

But I do have some sympathy for those brokers who have to expend resources in order to carry out a viewing- e.g. there may be travel expenses for their staff to reach the boat, plus the cost of their time, etc. 

But on the other hand, if the boat is on a pontoon close to their sales office, it seems a bit unwise to prevent viewings until the viewer has funds in place (did they ask for evidence of this, by the way?) 

After all, it might be a boat that's been sat there for months, and its possible the tyre kicker might turn into an actual buyer once he sees the boat, and they might thus sell the boat within a month.

Maybe a viewing could crystallise the final decision, and get the buyer moving on arranging the finances? 

But to be honest, those scenarios don't seem very likely.

 

I think basically what this broker is saying is: The only customers we will allow viewings are those who are already 100% committed to buying a boat, as evidenced by them being ready to commit the funds quickly if they see a suitable boat. 

This broker doesn't want to spend any time on 'aspirational' or potential buyers. They want buyers who have firmly made the decision, who know for sure they can get the money fairly quickly, and are now ready to pull the trigger when they see the right boat. 

As was said above, it has been a very fast moving market, and the reality is that if you dont already have the money arranged (at least in principle)  when you view the boat, its quite possible that even if you decide to buy, another buyer will come in and gazump you before your money is all finalised. 

So in a way, it's in your interests as well as the broker if you are in a position to hand over the money fairly swiftly (subject to survey etc), once your decision to buy is made. 

When the market slows down all that may change, of course.