Huddersfield Narrow and Rochdale Canals.

[Quaffer]

I am fearful that the direction of travel for these two canals is towards navigational closure by CRT and on the "use it or loose it" basis I'm navigating both in June,with all booking in place.

However already there is a closure ufn on the HNC between Lock 1E and 12E with the CRT notice implying at least a two week closure.This follows an earlier closure on the Diggle Flight of several days.

 

At present the Rochdale is open ,although Lock 8 is difficult to operate apparently.

 

Are there any local folk on the forum who can provide further information,especially about HNC Lock 1E ? I was told that the University of Huddersfields computer department situated on the towpath above this lock has a water abstraction agreement with CRT to cool their hardware but the water is then returned to the HNC below Lock 1E leading to a sustained loss of water above the lock.However the CRT notice talks about stop planks being in place at Lock 1E implying the problem is between the stop planks and the lock chamber. Any thoughts ?

 

IMHO if both the CRT Regional Director and Mr Parry as Chief Executive had Unplanned Navigational Closures as one of their Key Performance Indicators,there may well be faster and more effective action taken on these issues.

 

Are there any CRT Council members on this forum who can explain how these gentlemens "feet are being held to the fire" ,it would be a tradegy to looses these navigations,and although money is tight at CRT surely this should be of far greater prority than some of the activities that CRT are currently funding.  

[LadyG]

5 minutes ago, Quaffer said:

I am fearful that the direction of travel for these two canals is towards navigational closure by CRT and on the "use it or loose it" basis I'm navigating both in June,with all booking in place.

However already there is a closure ufn on the HNC between Lock 1E and 12E with the CRT notice implying at least a two week closure.This follows an earlier closure on the Diggle Flight of several days.

 

At present the Rochdale is open ,although Lock 8 is difficult to operate apparently.

 

Are there any local folk on the forum who can provide further information,especially about HNC Lock 1E ? I was told that the University of Huddersfields computer department situated on the towpath above this lock has a water abstraction agreement with CRT to cool their hardware but the water is then returned to the HNC below Lock 1E leading to a sustained loss of water above the lock.However the CRT notice talks about stop planks being in place at Lock 1E implying the problem is between the stop planks and the lock chamber. Any thoughts ?

 

IMHO if both the CRT Regional Director and Mr Parry as Chief Executive had Unplanned Navigational Closures as one of their Key Performance Indicators,there may well be faster and more effective action taken on these issues.

 

Are there any CRT Council members on this forum who can explain how these gentlemens "feet are being held to the fire" ,it would be a tradegy to looses these navigations,and although money is tight at CRT surely this should be of far greater prority than some of the activities that CRT are currently funding.  

I take a very relaxed view to boating, of course I"m retired and liveaboard, so no problem to change my plans around stopages which are planned.

In general the navigation suthority has to do the best it can with the resources it has.

There will always be water resource problems on tbe Rchdale, there will slways be unplanned stopages on the navigations regardless of who is running the organisation.

[IanD]

21 minutes ago, Quaffer said:

I am fearful that the direction of travel for these two canals is towards navigational closure by CRT and on the "use it or loose it" basis I'm navigating both in June,with all booking in place.

However already there is a closure ufn on the HNC between Lock 1E and 12E with the CRT notice implying at least a two week closure.This follows an earlier closure on the Diggle Flight of several days.

 

At present the Rochdale is open ,although Lock 8 is difficult to operate apparently.

 

Are there any local folk on the forum who can provide further information,especially about HNC Lock 1E ? I was told that the University of Huddersfields computer department situated on the towpath above this lock has a water abstraction agreement with CRT to cool their hardware but the water is then returned to the HNC below Lock 1E leading to a sustained loss of water above the lock.However the CRT notice talks about stop planks being in place at Lock 1E implying the problem is between the stop planks and the lock chamber. Any thoughts ?

 

IMHO if both the CRT Regional Director and Mr Parry as Chief Executive had Unplanned Navigational Closures as one of their Key Performance Indicators,there may well be faster and more effective action taken on these issues.

 

Are there any CRT Council members on this forum who can explain how these gentlemens "feet are being held to the fire" ,it would be a tradegy to looses these navigations,and although money is tight at CRT surely this should be of far greater prority than some of the activities that CRT are currently funding.  

 

It's very unlikely that CART will close either, since they'd have to pay back tens of millions of pounds each to the bodies who funded their reopening.

 

See the definitive post from @magpie patrick in this thread (on page 8)...

 

 

Edited May 2 by IanD

[Midnight]

21 minutes ago, Quaffer said:

I am fearful that the direction of travel for these two canals is towards navigational closure by CRT and on the "use it or loose it" basis I'm navigating both in June,with all booking in place.

However already there is a closure ufn on the HNC between Lock 1E and 12E with the CRT notice implying at least a two week closure.This follows an earlier closure on the Diggle Flight of several days.

 

At present the Rochdale is open ,although Lock 8 is difficult to operate apparently.

 

Are there any local folk on the forum who can provide further information,especially about HNC Lock 1E ? I was told that the University of Huddersfields computer department situated on the towpath above this lock has a water abstraction agreement with CRT to cool their hardware but the water is then returned to the HNC below Lock 1E leading to a sustained loss of water above the lock.However the CRT notice talks about stop planks being in place at Lock 1E implying the problem is between the stop planks and the lock chamber. Any thoughts ?

 

IMHO if both the CRT Regional Director and Mr Parry as Chief Executive had Unplanned Navigational Closures as one of their Key Performance Indicators,there may well be faster and more effective action taken on these issues.

 

Are there any CRT Council members on this forum who can explain how these gentlemens "feet are being held to the fire" ,it would be a tradegy to looses these navigations,and although money is tight at CRT surely this should be of far greater prority than some of the activities that CRT are currently funding.  

Good point but suggest you get tin helmet ready as IanD will be along any minute to explain why you are wrong - oops already commented 🤣

Edited May 2 by Midnight

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Midnight said:

Good point but suggest you get tin helmet ready as IanD will be alongvany minute to explain why you are wrong

Too late 😉

 

Are you saying that @magpie patrick was wrong ("Good point..."), even though he actually worked on the contracts? Or do you just not like anybody pointing the facts out? 🙂 

Edited May 2 by IanD

[Stroudwater1]

The water levels at Lock 1E have had  a problem with low water  for ages. It’s not clear what the stop planks are about unless it implies they have identified the loss as being between the bottom lock gate and stop planks. 

Not heard of the extraction then going into the long pound below lock 1. That would seem a strange agreement. 
Looks like they will be sorting the levels soon on lock 12-1E. There was a pump there when we were there in 2021 from that aquaduct or nearby. 
 

It’s a great canal, one of if not the favourite of ours. We are in danger of talking it into closure by keeping saying it’s going to close. It’s so important to be really sure of closing gates and paddles to avoid needless water loss on this canal. 
 

There is usually quite a bit of water flowing in at the top pound and also hopefully the reservoirs will be back to being filled as normal. 
 

 

[dmr]

The Rochdale summit is currently struggling for water despite efforts from CRT and so I fear it might get closed before too long, especially of we have a lot of dry weather..

 

Its very easy to blame CRT for this but boaters going over the summit without booking and cutting the padlocks off as they go really doesn't help.

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, dmr said:

The Rochdale summit is currently struggling for water despite efforts from CRT and so I fear it might get closed before too long, especially of we have a lot of dry weather..

 

Its very easy to blame CRT for this but boaters going over the summit without booking and cutting the padlocks off as they go really doesn't help.

Has this actually happened, or -- worse! -- more than once?

 

If it has, some boaters really are their own worst enemies... 😞 

[Hudds Lad]

54 minutes ago, Quaffer said:

Are there any local folk on the forum who can provide further information,especially about HNC Lock 1E ? I was told that the University of Huddersfields computer department situated on the towpath above this lock has a water abstraction agreement with CRT to cool their hardware but the water is then returned to the HNC below Lock 1E leading to a sustained loss of water above the lock.

I believe this to be the case. Originally i'd heard the canal water, once used, was discharged into the nearby River Colne and not the canal. On querying this the most i could get from the University's Carbon and Energy Reduction Officer was; "The water is returned to the canal with no losses". That's all he would say and would not specify which canal it was returned to, or respond to further queries.

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

Has this actually happened, or -- worse! -- more than once?

 

If it has, some boaters really are their own worst enemies... 😞 

 

There was a recent report of a cruiser with two blokes on heading over the summit leaving locks open and paddles up behind them, this happened a few years back as well. Same blokes? Who knows.

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

I believe this to be the case. Originally i'd heard the canal water, once used, was discharged into the nearby River Colne and not the canal. On querying this the most i could get from the University's Carbon and Energy Reduction Officer was; "The water is returned to the canal with no losses". That's all he would say and would not specify which canal it was returned to, or respond to further queries.

 

There was a recent report of a cruiser with two blokes on heading over the summit leaving locks open and paddles up behind them, this happened a few years back as well. Same blokes? Who knows.

Did they cut the padlocks off too?

[Hudds Lad]

Just now, IanD said:

Did they cut the padlocks off too?

Unsure, currently trying to find the post on Facey for more detail

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

Unsure, currently trying to find the post on Facey for more detail

Given that the summit locks are currently locked and only opened for a brief period each day by volockies/staff who supervise their working, I can't see how else they could have got through and left gates/paddles open -- unless it was going down the locks after that, which wouldn't have lowered the summit level...

 

I love both the Rochdale and HNC, behaviour like this is just unforgivable... 😞 

Edited May 2 by IanD

[Hudds Lad]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

Given that the summit locks are currently locked and only opened for a brief period each day by volockies/staff who supervise their working, I can't see how else they could have got through and left gates/paddles open -- unless it was going down the locks after that, which wouldn't have lowered the summit level...

 

I love both the Rochdale and HNC, behaviour like this is just unforgivable... 😞 

Can only find the post from 2020

 

 

Edited May 2 by Hudds Lad

[dmr]

The plastic cruiser (if its the same one) has just changed hands and will be heading back over the summit soon, hope the new owners are better at working locks 😀. The padlock cutting was a different boat and was just a few days ago.

[Quaffer]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

It's very unlikely that CART will close either, since they'd have to pay back tens of millions of pounds each to the bodies who funded their reopening.

 

See the definitive post from @magpie patrick in this thread (on page 8)...

 

 

Ian,

I missed this debate and some interesting points were made on the thread. However as the Grant Funding Documents are not in the public arena and with these two waterwayus classified as remainder waterways, I don't feel as confident as you.

 

CRT may never officially close either waterway if there is such a liability but with continued localised closures at various location this will lead to a situation that through navigation is impratical ,a de facto closure in all but name . A general lack of planned preventative maintenance will then lead to yet more unplanned closures at other sites which in a roundabout way justifies much less spending on PPM if  very few boats are using the canal in question.

Edited May 2 by Quaffer

[Jon57]

1 minute ago, Quaffer said:

Ian,

I missed this debate and some interesting points were made on the thread. However as the Grant Funding Documents are not in the public arena and with these two waterwayus classified as remainder waterways, I don't feel as confident as you.

 

CRT may never officially close either waterway if there is such a liability but with continued localised closures at various location this will lead to a situation that through navigation is impratical ,a de facto closure in all but name . A general lack of planned preventative maintenance will then lead to yet more unplanned closures at other sites which in a roundabout way justifies much less spending on PPM if that means very few boats are using the canal in question.

Won't close them yet, just  longer stoppages that's the norm. Just done the Huddersfield narrow with my boat which draws 2foot ten inch at the skeg static. Was hard and challenging at times but a lovely canal. If the prat who can down from the tunnel before we waited to go up Marsden Flight had closed the paddles as they dropped down the Huddersfield narrow it would still be in water possibly. Yes crt have a lot to answer. So do a lot of dumb boaters. 

[Midnight]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Too late 😉

 

Are you saying that @magpie patrick was wrong ("Good point..."), even though he actually worked on the contracts? Or do you just not like anybody pointing the facts out? 🙂 

No I totally agree. My whistle-blower said they will not close the Huddersfield because Standedge tunnel is a heritage site. They won't close the Rochdale but they may discover a major fault that will take a very long time to fix.... on the Littleborough side.

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Has this actually happened, or -- worse! -- more than once?

 

If it has, some boaters really are their own worst enemies... 😞 

The only time I heard that had happened was when they closed the summit because Punchbowl Bridge has a bit of masonry missing and they couldn't decide who owned it - the bridge not the masonry. I think at least one forumite would know more about it than me. 

[Ian Mac]

At the council meting last September, before I was voted off, I asked two questions which are relevant here.
1 Are  the trust going to close either the Rochdale or the HVNC  due to lack of funds, to which the Chair of the Trustees answered "not on my watch"
2 Why do we not make the Marple closure, a campaign by just declaring its closed and not fixing it, as the trust is broke, especially as we know how to win that one, as we have done it before. Its high profile in a marginal parliamentary seat.
David Orr, the Chair responded, now is not the time to go down that road, there may become a time when we may have to adopt such an approach but I hope that we do not have to arrive at that point.
From this I draw the conclusion that C&RT are not currently in the game of closing canals. This is the direction which the trustees are telling the management to move!  This is particularly true of the HVNC and the Rochdale, as both have adjoining local authorities which have made agreements with C&RT about them being open for navigation. The original HVNC funding agreement has now run out, I am not sure what the current position is between the authorities along HVNC & C&RT is. The HCS still exists and it may well be in the mix there too as originally it was the holder of the funding from the Local authorities. That funding may well now come directly to C&RT.
The agreement to support the Rochdale canal made by the local authorities is I believe for a much longer period of time 50 years, or so, I think, however I am not sure what the start date for that was, but it is still good currently. The original agreement involved the Waterways Trust and the local authorities. The Waterways Trust was absorbed by C&RT when it too became a charitable trust.

 

As to Lock 1E on he HVNC there is thought to be  a leak associated with the lock structure  however it is proving very hard to discover where the leak is and where the water is going to. The last theory I heard was that the leak is in the stonework of the fore bay, however that has been in theory sealled but the leak persists. An ongoing mystery.

 

I should also add that the Rochdale water problems are in the main due to poor boating practices.
Last week I worked to boats through the Manchester 18 and Slattocks flights, no real problems plenty of water.
This week I helped a boat though with an experienced crew. They did Castlefield to Smith Bridge in just less that 12 hours, but the flights were both in a mess. My conclusion is that another boat has been through and not made sure that all paddles and gates were closed. Pounds that I have never know to be dry before were dry, it was all very odd! 

Edited May 2 by Ian Mac
added final para

[ditchcrawler]

16 minutes ago, Midnight said:

No I totally agree. My whistle-blower said they will not close the Huddersfield because Standedge tunnel is a heritage site.   

Didn't they come unstuck when they tried to close the visitor centre 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

CRT rent that Visitor Centre out for weddings at some daft charge, think it were £5000 6 years ago,

crazy money but folk pay it,

they get top floor and the grounds to themselves,

often it meant visitors for the museum were disappointed because access was limited,

but it’s  exactly what CRT should be doing,

making money from their assets,

not rocket science

 

the cafe at the tunnel end is a little gold mine,

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

 

CRT rent that Visitor Centre out for weddings at some daft charge, think it were £5000 6 years ago,

crazy money but folk pay it,

they get top floor and the grounds to themselves,

often it meant visitors for the museum were disappointed because access was limited,

but it’s  exactly what CRT should be doing,

making money from their assets,

not rocket science

 

the cafe at the tunnel end is a little gold mine,

I am sure I have read that somewhere before 🤑

[Stroudwater1]

1 hour ago, Ian Mac said:

 

 

I should also add that the Rochdale water problems are in the main due to poor boating practices.
Last week I worked to boats through the Manchester 18 and Slattocks flights, no real problems plenty of water.
This week I helped a boat though with an experienced crew. They did Castlefield to Smith Bridge in just less that 12 hours, but the flights were both in a mess. My conclusion is that another boat has been through and not made sure that all paddles and gates were closed. Pounds that I have never know to be dry before were dry, it was all very odd! 

I agree with that. We met the maddest French couple three years ago who had opened all four  paddles on the next 4 locks on the Manchester flight. All pounds were near to dry. We wound them down and went to see why they were “stuck “ in the lock they were in. Turned out the top paddles were up too but their lock wasn’t equalising after two hours because the bottom paddles were also left partially open. It was a slow journey through those drained pounds. 

Appreciate one swallow and all that but we do find paddles left open often these days, even gates through whole flights. 

[ditchcrawler]

7 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

I agree with that. We met the maddest French couple three years ago who had opened all four  paddles on the next 4 locks on the Manchester flight. All pounds were near to dry. We wound them down and went to see why they were “stuck “ in the lock they were in. Turned out the top paddles were up too but their lock wasn’t equalising after two hours because the bottom paddles were also left partially open. It was a slow journey through those drained pounds. 

Appreciate one swallow and all that but we do find paddles left open often these days, even gates through whole flights. 

We walked and closed up behind a boat that went up Bosley Locks leaving top gates and paddles open, we had already moored up for the day at the bottom

[IanD]

3 hours ago, Quaffer said:

Ian,

I missed this debate and some interesting points were made on the thread. However as the Grant Funding Documents are not in the public arena and with these two waterwayus classified as remainder waterways, I don't feel as confident as you.

 

CRT may never officially close either waterway if there is such a liability but with continued localised closures at various location this will lead to a situation that through navigation is impratical ,a de facto closure in all but name . A general lack of planned preventative maintenance will then lead to yet more unplanned closures at other sites which in a roundabout way justifies much less spending on PPM if  very few boats are using the canal in question.

The information about HNC/Rochdale funding and what would have to be repaid by CART on closure came directly from @magpie patrick who was actually involved in the funding processes, I don't see how anything can be more authoritative than that.

[Hudds Lad]

3 hours ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

 

CRT rent that Visitor Centre out for weddings at some daft charge, think it were £5000 6 years ago,

crazy money but folk pay it,

they get top floor and the grounds to themselves,

often it meant visitors for the museum were disappointed because access was limited,

but it’s  exactly what CRT should be doing,

making money from their assets,

not rocket science

 

the cafe at the tunnel end is a little gold mine,

Seems to now be the North of England Centre for Music & Arts?? Not sure of detail but did see a Facey post.

 

The cafe does very well, when it's open. See a lot of disappointed folk sat on the outdoor tables in close season.