Where are all the boaters?

[Naughty Cal]

29 minutes ago, Stephen Sugg said:

I looked into hiring a boat for the end of May for a long weekend, just me and my wife, far too expensive, so we're driving to Bruges and staying on a hotel boat instead, half the price, all in, including the tunnel. Unless we go with another couple, my (narrow) boating days are over. 

We are heading the Bruges later in the year. Not been before but it looks very nice. 

 

We will definitely be going on a boat trip while we are there 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 hour ago, Heartland said:

As to the electric scooter users their use should be regulated more and it should be recognised that they are banned on the Rail Network. 

 the railways have their own police force, the British Transport Police, therefore they have some clout when dealing with the scrotes. 

The canals once had police too when they were commercial? 

Is it Stoke Bruerne that has an old wooden sign warning miscreants they’d be shipped to Australia?

 

Today’s sign would be for Rwanda. 

 

 

 

 

 

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, Heartland said:

Enforcement, I agree may well help and may be it should be a topic to consider in the forth coming elections.

 

On the roads and footpaths there is the problem of Deliveroo and Just Eat cyclists, electric cyclists and even ic powered scooters who regularly are odds with the Highway Code. These abuses can no doubt be seen by those who monitor the cameras in certain places. May be the companies should be fined as a way to get their staff to follow the rules.

 

 

The problem is still how to detect infringements and then enforce the rules -- the escooter/ebike problem is endemic just like traffic offences by car drivers, and almost all the detection (speed/lights) for these is done by (lots of) ANPR cameras not (scarce) bobbies on the beat, because cars have nice big visible numberplates and their owners are on record so can easily be tracked down and fined.

 

This is impossible with escooters/ebikes on pavements/towpaths never mind roads, because they don't have numberplates and nobody knows who owns them -- and there are no expensive cameras to snap them anyway, even if these could somehow recognise the livery of Deliveroo or whoever then how do you prove which rider/bike it was?

 

The only way to fix this would be to have enforcement of licensing/numberplates for ebikes and escooters like cars, which is simply never going to happen -- apart from the practicalities, who would pay for it, and how do you control their sale?

 

Bad behaviour by their riders is an increasing problem, but any way to stop this has to be workable in real life -- and so far nobody's come up with one... 😞 

Edited April 25 by IanD

[Arthur Marshall]

9 minutes ago, Heartland said:

Enforcement, I agree may well help and may be it should be a topic to consider in the forth coming elections.

 

On the roads and footpaths there is the problem of Deliveroo and Just Eat cyclists, electric cyclists and even ic powered scooters who regularly are odds with the Highway Code. These abuses can no doubt be seen by those who monitor the cameras in certain places. May be the companies should be fined as a way to get their staff to follow the rules.

 

Enforcement of cyclists has the same problem as enforcement of CC rules - identification. It's impossible for ordinary bikes to be identifiable though it would be perfectly easy for electrics if the will was there, which it isn't. That would take politicians (of all stamps and at all levels) who had some interest in real life rather than playing games.

[IanD]

11 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Enforcement of cyclists has the same problem as enforcement of CC rules - identification. It's impossible for ordinary bikes to be identifiable though it would be perfectly easy for electrics if the will was there, which it isn't. That would take politicians (of all stamps and at all levels) who had some interest in real life rather than playing games.

 

The trouble is that it *wouldn't* be perfectly easy, and certainly not cheap... 😞

 

You have to not only identify the bike but the rider, just like prosecuting/fining a car driver for a driving offence. This works for cars because drivers are licensed and cars are sold/registered/insured with drivers and have visible numberplates -- how would this work for ebikes/escooters without a *massive* amount of bureaucracy (DVLA on steroids) as well as law changes to control the sale/registration of both bikes and riders?

 

It's easy to say "something must be done" and "it can be fixed easily", but coming up with a workable scheme is *much* harder, and maybe impossible in reality -- which is why politicians aren't interested, they have easier and more important things to do like stuffing their own pockets with taxpayer money... 😞 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

25 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

We are heading the Bruges later in the year. Not been before but it looks very nice. 

 

We will definitely be going on a boat trip while we are there 

Bruges is lovely. 
used to tour around Belgium on my motorbike 

 

visit the the Groeninge Museum if you get the chance. 
lots of well known medieval paintings,

 

 

[Higgs]

Any where an ordinary bike can go, an electric bike of up to 250w motors can go. EAPCs. Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles.

 

 

Edited April 25 by Higgs

[Halkyon]

We looked at hire prices before viewing boats to livaboard. It's just not worth it for the normal workin' person, could fly to Hong Kong for less.

[Stephen Sugg]

1 hour ago, Naughty Cal said:

We are heading the Bruges later in the year. Not been before but it looks very nice. 

 

We will definitely be going on a boat trip while we are there 

Same, I've never been. We went to Ypres last year and I've sort of fallen for Belgium a bit. Last year was to look around the battlefields, I've promised not to do that this time around. We've already booked for next year, staying near Ypres and we're going to watch some cycle races. 

[Jon57]

5 hours ago, IanD said:

I suspect the hire companies were hammered by Covid and then the slow business return afterwards, which meant they put their prices up, which discouraged people from booking boating holidays, so fewer boats were hired, so the prices went up -- and the increasing number of stoppages in the past few years can't have helped either, once you've booked a fixed-date holiday with a planned route it can be difficult to change when you find out just beforehand that you can't do it.

 

This could well be a death spiral for a lot of the financially weaker hire companies, as well as those who are quitting/selling up due to retirement. Anyone know what's happening to Shire Cruisers in Sowerby Bridge?

Facts. Sowerby selling off boats. Offering discount to move boats onto the Leeds Liverpool. 

14 hours ago, dmr said:

 

The Tunnel leading up to Tuel Lane Deep Lock (Sowerby Bridge, Rochdale Canal) had some sort of comms system so the Lock keepers could signal to waiting boats (as boats should not enter the tunnel while the lock is emptying).

It broke.

Now the lock keepers have a whistle, they bend down towards the tunnel and blow the whistle and the sound travels through the tunnel quite well.

They don't even do that. Had to walk up to tell them I was waiting. No problem really. How much is a whistle these day. And how long is the training course 😁

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

Facts. Sowerby selling off boats. Offering discount to move boats onto the Leeds Liverpool. 

I know Nigel wanted to retire and sell off Shire Cruisers as a going concern -- were there any takers?

 

If they shut up shop in Sowerby Bridge it could be a body blow for the Rochdale, no hire boats there any more... 😞 

Edited April 25 by IanD

[Arthur Marshall]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

 

The trouble is that it *wouldn't* be perfectly easy, and certainly not cheap... 😞

 

You have to not only identify the bike but the rider, just like prosecuting/fining a car driver for a driving offence. This works for cars because drivers are licensed and cars are sold/registered/insured with drivers and have visible numberplates -- how would this work for ebikes/escooters without a *massive* amount of bureaucracy (DVLA on steroids) as well as law changes to control the sale/registration of both bikes and riders?

 

It's easy to say "something must be done" and "it can be fixed easily", but coming up with a workable scheme is *much* harder, and maybe impossible in reality -- which is why politicians aren't interested, they have easier and more important things to do like stuffing their own pockets with taxpayer money... 😞 

Ebikes, escooters and all motorised transport should be treated like motorbikes , which is what they are. Numberplates and registered to an owner, who is liable for damage no matter who is riding. No reason why a licence shouldn't be required to ride them, either.

Just because a government can't be bothered, doesn't mean it isn't a simple solution. They pass enough daft laws - if they can make it illegal to walk slowly down a road, they could sort ebikes.

[Tonka]

On 24/04/2024 at 08:06, Naughty Cal said:

We looked to hire a boat on the Broads this summer for a week but very quickly changed our mind when we got to the price page. (£2768 + £25 parking + £40 pet charge)

 

https://www.broads.co.uk/boats/fair-chancellor/?unit_id=1556&arrival=2024-06-29&duration=604800&adults=2&children=0&arrival_time=16:00:00

 

We have booked the Isle of Wight ferry instead and will have a week over there with the van. Including food, drink and fuel it will come nowhere near the cost of the boat hire!

 

The hire yards are very much at a point now where they are pricing themselves out of the market. Foreign travel is open for business again and it makes holidaying in the UK look damn 

So you are going on the dearest crossing in the world. If you work it out Concorde over the same distance was cheaper. 

[Higgs]

13 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Ebikes, escooters and all motorised transport should be treated like motorbikes , which is what they are. Numberplates and registered to an owner, who is liable for damage no matter who is riding. No reason why a licence shouldn't be required to ride them, either.

Just because a government can't be bothered, doesn't mean it isn't a simple solution. They pass enough daft laws - if they can make it illegal to walk slowly down a road, they could sort ebikes.

 

I have an E-Bike. 250watts. I ride it on the towpath, if conditions allow it. It's perfectly possible to ride it safely and without causing injury to others. You can ride a standard road bike in the same way, or just as inconsiderately.  

 

UK Electric Bike Laws: Everything you need to know in 2023 (ebikechoices.com)

 

 

Edited April 26 by Higgs

[ditchcrawler]

15 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

I have an E-Bike. 250watts. I ride it on the towpath, if conditions allow it. It's perfectly possible to ride it safely and without causing injury to others. You can ride a standard road bike in the same way, and just as inconsiderately.  

 

UK Electric Bike Laws: Everything you need to know in 2023 (ebikechoices.com)

 

 

I couldn't see where it mentioned CRT/BWB Bylaws amongst all the adverts 

[Naughty Cal]

1 hour ago, Tonka said:

So you are going on the dearest crossing in the world. If you work it out Concorde over the same distance was cheaper. 

£160 return with the Caravan and Motorhome Club discount. 

 

Not that expensive!

3 hours ago, Stephen Sugg said:

Same, I've never been. We went to Ypres last year and I've sort of fallen for Belgium a bit. Last year was to look around the battlefields, I've promised not to do that this time around. We've already booked for next year, staying near Ypres and we're going to watch some cycle races. 

We were supposed to have a boat hire in Belgium but Covid got in the way of that one and it got cancelled so we never got to go.

 

Looking forward to spending a few days there this year. We have a couple of nights in Bruges and then a night in Domein Bovy on our way across to Cologne.

[Ronaldo47]

But is a tow path a public highway?

 

If it is not, then using a vehicle that would be illegal if used on the public highway, would arguably not be illegal when used on something that is not a public highway. You used to need a special permit to use a bike on the tow path, indicating that a tow path was not a public highway, but I don't know if subsequent legislation has changed the towpath's legal status.  Perhaps it would be covered by by-laws or conditions of use, which could mean it would be a civil law matter rather than a criminal law one.

 

The last two times we hired at easter, it snowed. The first time it settled and was heavy enough to build a snowman figurehead.

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

But is a tow path a public highway?

 

If it is not, then using a vehicle that would be illegal if used on the public highway, would arguably not be illegal when used on something that is not a public highway. You used to need a special permit to use a bike on the tow path, indicating that a tow path was not a public highway, but I don't know if subsequent legislation has changed the towpath's legal status.  Perhaps it would be covered by by-laws or conditions of use, which could mean it would be a civil law matter rather than a criminal law one.

 

By enlarge the tow paths are private land, although there are some lengths of towpaths that are rights of way (footpaths).

The owners (BW / C&RT) have granted access to the 'other towpaths' under what is called 'a permissive footpath' which basically means that the land owner has given permission for you to walk on their land.

 

Permissive footpaths can be closed, or the permission revoked, if the landowner wishes - a typical example of this on 'shoot-days' when the permission is revoked for 'the day'.

 

Unfortunately C&RT are not in a postion to be able to 'close' their permissive footpaths due to the agreement the 'signed up to' when they were handed the poisoned chalice AKA 'the canal network;.

 

From the transfer documents :

 

2 OBJECTS
The objects of this Settlement (the “Objects”) are as contained in this Clause 2.
2.1 Subject to Clause 2.2 and 2.3, to hold in trust and retain in perpetuity for public benefit the Infrastructure Property for the following purposes:

2.1.1 to operate and manage the Infrastructure Property for public benefit, use and enjoyment including:
(a) for navigation;
(b) for walking on towpaths; and
(c) for recreation or other leisure-time pursuits of the public in the interest of their health and social welfare;

2.1.2 to protect and conserve, for public benefit, sites, objects and buildings of archaeological, architectural, engineering or historic interest on, in the vicinity of, or otherwise associated with the Infrastructure Property;

2.1.3 to further, for public benefit, the conservation, protection and improvement of the natural environment and landscape of the Infrastructure Property.

 

 

 

2.4 The Trustee must obtain the Settlor’s prior written consent before:

2.4.1 disposing of any part of the Infrastructure Property
a) by way of freehold; or
b) by way of any leasehold disposal that would have the effect of restricting any generally available public access to the Infrastructure Property existing at the time of the disposal (for the avoidance of doubt the Parties agree that all towpaths are generally available to public access at the time of disposal);

2.4.2 seeking to amend this Settlement in any way (and any such amendment shall be ineffective without the Settlor’s prior written consent);

2.4.3 restricting pedestrian access to any part of the towpaths within the Infrastructure Property; for example by charging a fee for access, save that consent will not be needed for any temporary restrictions either to allow maintenance/repair works or to protect persons from risks to their safety;

2.4.4 diverting the route of any towpath or part of a towpath, other than as permitted at Clause 3.5.1

[blackrose]

On 23/04/2024 at 10:21, Ex Brummie said:

Given the abhorrent weather over the early part of the year, and with the dire forecast for easter, I'm not surprised there was little traffic.  The interesting comparison with the K&A would be just how many boats moved on there.

 

Yes I'd put it down to the unseasonably cold and wet weather, plus perhaps the cost of living crisis isn't helping? Less disposable income around.

Edited April 25 by blackrose

[MtB]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

By enlarge the tow paths are private land, although there are some lengths of towpaths that are rights of way (footpaths).

The owners (BW / C&RT) have granted access to the 'other towpaths' under what is called 'a permissive footpath' which basically means that the land owner has given permission for you to walk on their land.

 

Permissive footpaths can be closed, or the permission revoked, if the landowner wishes - a typical example of this on 'shoot-days' when the permission is revoked for 'the day'.

 

Unfortunately C&RT are not in a postion to be able to 'close' their permissive footpaths due to the agreement the 'signed up to' when they were handed the poisoned chalice AKA 'the canal network;.

 

From the transfer documents :

 

2 OBJECTS
The objects of this Settlement (the “Objects”) are as contained in this Clause 2.
2.1 Subject to Clause 2.2 and 2.3, to hold in trust and retain in perpetuity for public benefit the Infrastructure Property for the following purposes:

2.1.1 to operate and manage the Infrastructure Property for public benefit, use and enjoyment including:
(a) for navigation;
(b) for walking on towpaths; and
(c) for recreation or other leisure-time pursuits of the public in the interest of their health and social welfare;

2.1.2 to protect and conserve, for public benefit, sites, objects and buildings of archaeological, architectural, engineering or historic interest on, in the vicinity of, or otherwise associated with the Infrastructure Property;

2.1.3 to further, for public benefit, the conservation, protection and improvement of the natural environment and landscape of the Infrastructure Property.

 

 

 

2.4 The Trustee must obtain the Settlor’s prior written consent before:

2.4.1 disposing of any part of the Infrastructure Property
a) by way of freehold; or
b) by way of any leasehold disposal that would have the effect of restricting any generally available public access to the Infrastructure Property existing at the time of the disposal (for the avoidance of doubt the Parties agree that all towpaths are generally available to public access at the time of disposal);

2.4.2 seeking to amend this Settlement in any way (and any such amendment shall be ineffective without the Settlor’s prior written consent);

2.4.3 restricting pedestrian access to any part of the towpaths within the Infrastructure Property; for example by charging a fee for access, save that consent will not be needed for any temporary restrictions either to allow maintenance/repair works or to protect persons from risks to their safety;

2.4.4 diverting the route of any towpath or part of a towpath, other than as permitted at Clause 3.5.1

 

 

So, them needing to write all that in illustrates towpaths are not a public ROW. Special measures are needed to give the public a right of access.

 

"Right of way (no hyphens), is the legal right, established by grant from a landowner or long usage (i.e., by prescription), to pass along a specific route through property belonging to another."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_way

 

Arguably the clauses you list comprise a "grant from a landowner", so perhaps a ROW does exist! 

 

No doubt a court could make a ruling at enormous expense.

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

So, them needing to write all that in illustrates towpaths are not a public ROW. Special measures are needed to give the public a right of access.

 

"Right of way (no hyphens), is the legal right, established by grant from a landowner or long usage (i.e., by prescription), to pass along a specific route through property belonging to another."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_way

 

Arguably the clauses you list comprise a "grant from a landowner", so perhaps a ROW does exist! 

 

No doubt a court could make a ruling at enormous expense.

 

 

 

 

There is a huge amount on .gov/UK regarding pemissive rights of way but in essence this sums it up :

 

 

 

Permissive paths, sometimes referred to as concessionary paths, are not public rights of way and the public do not have a legal right to use them. They can play an important role in improving public access to the countryside. Providing a connection between existing public rights of way where gaps currently exist in the network. As permissive paths are not public rights of way, landowners may impose conditions on their use. This can include restrictions on when the public can use them and how the paths are used (e.g. walkers allowed, but not cyclists or horse-riders).

Creating a permissive route

There are two main ways of establishing a permissive path either:

• through a formal written agreement between the Council and the owner of the land, or
• by the owner of land granting consent in a less formal arrangement

Usually, a formal agreement between the landowner and local authority is in place. This ensures the authority will address problems encountered by users with the landowner. The agreement can include:

[Ronaldo47]

So it seems that using a vehicle of a type which, if ridden on a public highway, would be criminal offence, would not be a criminal offence if ridden on a towpath (other than the rare case where the towpath is also a public right of way).  

[CruisingRobin]

Interesting discussion, if a bit sad.  We're headed into the UK for a fortnight around the 4CR starting next week.  Looks likely that we will experience actual weather this time.  (We're from California.  We don't have that.  Not like you'd know, anyway.)  I guess we don't mind low traffic, but I hope it's not a desolate experience.  We've planned 4 weeks a year for the next several.  We've bought a share for our cruises starting 2025.  Hope not to see the canal boating economy go south.  We'll do our tiny part.

 

Hope to see someone!

[Higgs]

12 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I couldn't see where it mentioned CRT/BWB Bylaws amongst all the adverts 

 

If and when I see a no cycling sign, I'll push the bike.

 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

8 hours ago, Higgs said:

 

If and when I see a no cycling sign, I'll push the bike.

 

 

 

There are very few No Cycling signs but as you say compliant bikes are OK FAQs | Canal & River Trust (canalrivertrust.org.uk)