Building a Category C narrowboat!

[dreamboater]

Hi Canalworld!

I have been hire boating many years, but now that I'm retired I'm ready to sell up and build my dream liveaboard, so I thought I would join this forum and get some advice.

 

I have thought about it very carefully over the years and I've come up with the following requirements.

 

The first thing that will make my boat unusual is that on fine days i want to be able to handle estuaries / coastal / inshore waters without worry. In particular being that I'm near Runcorn I want to be able to cross the Mersey as well as go down the Severn. According to the RCD, Category C - Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes, and rivers where conditions up to and including wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to and including 2 meters may be experienced. 2 metres would be terrifying if not fatal in most narrowboats! So, I want to look into what it would take to construct a boat to go-anywhere narrowboat dimensions (say, 57' by 7', 2' draught with a flat bottom) but still be able to meet the requirements of a Cat C boat. (maybe even a Cat B so I can cross the channel or go to the med). I am thinking the main thing would be to ensure watertightness below the roof line with ventillation supplied by openings high up under the roof with snorkels. Another thing would be plenty of ballast to keep it upright.

 

The second thing I want is an electric drive. I would want it well overspecced in power so that I can do 10 knots in open water. Probably dual motor for safety. For such powerful propulsion I would want lithium batteries under the whole floor which would double as ballast. And then both sides and roof I would want virtually covered in solar panels. In fact I'm thinking of using the solar panels almost structurally, in that the boat would be a frame with solar panels fitting into the frame. Of course a cocooned diesel generator is a must as well for a diesel-electric drive.

 

 

I'm not very set on what it should look like but I am interested in a cruiser deck that has a rigid lid that folds down over the superstructure, which is another unusual feature I know but I think would help keep the boat watertight.

 

I don't know what questions I should be asking but here's some for a start.

 

1. Hull Design: What hull design would be best suited for Category C conditions? Should I go for a traditional narrowboat hull, or are there other designs that would offer better stability and performance? Something unusal like those fold down side keels like you get on some dutch barges?

2. Length and Beam: Is it feasible that such a small boat (say, 57' by 7', 2' draught with a flat bottom) can manage Cat C?

3. Safety Features: What safety features should I prioritise when building my narrowboat for Category C conditions? Are there specific requirements for navigation and safety equipment I need to consider? A radio is a must, and maybe one of those emergency inflatable lifeboats.

4. Construction Materials: What materials would be best suited for building a narrowboat intended for Category C voyages? Should I consider steel or aluminum, considering both durability and weight?

5. Interior Layout: Any tips for the interior layout of a Category C narrowboat? How can I optimise space while ensuring comfort and functionality?

 

Any other fit out good ideas you can think of would be very welcome.

 

I realise this is a big dream. I know it will take a long time, both to find a building willing to do it and to wait for a slot. and I know it will take a lot of money. But when you have time and money then dreams can come true, right?!??!?!????

[Tony Brooks]

Be aware a boat built to narrowboat dimensions crossed the Atlantic (I Francis, I think) so have a Google for that.

 

A slightly modified boat destined for a GU hire fleet did a number of seagoing voyages, one to the Scilly Isles I think. (Ocean Princess, I think)

 

The owner of Lee Sanitation had a modified narrowboat that did a number of costal and cross channel voyages.(NB Progress)

 

It has been reported here that pilots on the Severn and Wash have expressed surprise at how well standard narrowboats ride the sea.

 

None of this is intended to say any old narrowboat will do, but it shows it is perfectly possible in narrowboat dimensions.

 

I am not sure current battery technology is up to an electrically powered sea boat, especially as the power required tends to increase by the square of the speed.

 

I think that you need to consult a Naval Architect and work out how you will get the documentation for the Recreational Craft Regulations. Since about 1998 there are rules about building and fitting out new boats.

 

If I were planning this, I would want to ensure that the ballast is securely held in place because with a narrow beam it is likely to roll badly and the last thing you want is the ballast shifting.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

Welcome, a lot of ideas and a lot of re-inventing the wheel????

 To save all the expense and time.

why not just buy a standard Narrowboat and do all the inland waterways and when you’ve done all you want of that, sell it and buy a coastal cruiser and do coastal waters? This would save you a lot of time and probably a lot of money with the type of boat your dreaming of building.

 

 

Edited April 22 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[BEngo]

I suggest you start by  talking to Chris Coburn, Lee Sanitation,  if he  is still around as he  would be in his 80's now,  and Wyvern Shipping af Leighton Buzzard.  

 

Chris C has been nearly everywhere, including Bude by narrowboat.  Boat was Progress.

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=http://www.nb-progress.com/news.html&ved=2ahUKEwj_pbHbw9aFAxVsS0EAHRW5CEUQFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0XvMljgRxV60lImZ7581fS

 

Wyvern shipping huilt Ocean Princess  a "seagoing" narrowboat.

 

N

[Bee]

You will get lots of opinions, many negative. There is much to think about, Personally I would say that building a boat to a particular label is not the most important thing, it is just a label. Narrowboats are obviously built to suit narrow locks and crossing the channel is pushing the envelope but given very good weather almost anything can cross the channel so that is the real limiting factor. I personally would not bother with electric. Charging points across the channel are very scarce and you might find serious problems with anything over a few hours using more power than the batteries can cope with, tides, currents and distance can halve your range. Diesel tanks must have good access to clean them and a proper fuel filtration arrangement too. There are narrowboats happily wandering around the quiet waterways of Europe but there are waterways that we avoid because they can be uncomfortable and Bee is a much more suitable boat. A well built conventional narrowboat would be my choice if I had to do it. Don't forget about Brexit and all that stuff and lastly I would stick a decent inflatable on board in case it all goes wrong.

[Alan de Enfield]

58 minutes ago, dreamboater said:

Safety Features: What safety features should I prioritise when building my narrowboat for Category C conditions? Are there specific requirements for navigation and safety equipment I need to consider? A radio is a must, and maybe one of those emergency inflatable lifeboats.

 

 

The safety features that you must have are detailed in the RCD / RCR, for example, just look at the downflooding height differences for a Cat D and a Cat C boat (4" for a Cat D  and 30" for a Cat C)

 

 

If you are planning to have a VHF radio, not only must the boat be licenced but you must take (and pass) the Radio operatrs course to allow you to use a VHF radio,

 

 

If I remember correctly the Narrowboat that crossed the chanel had a set of keels welded on and all the doors, windows and vents were welded up for the trip.

 

I really think that you will struggle to get a NB type of boat to meet the class C requirements.

 

You have hired for some years, but have you any experience or qualifications for boat handling in tidal waters ?

 

Much as I often disagree with a previous poster I think his suggestion of getting a NB and having 'your fussy' out on the canals, and then buying a proper sea-going Cat C or Cat B boat if the safe way to go

[dreamboater]

Is it possible to get a standard sea-going boat that will fit on the inland waterways? If so then I would be open to buying rather than building.

 

I have done around half of the canals but the goal is to be able to do both in the same boat.

[Tony Brooks]

17 minutes ago, dreamboater said:

Is it possible to get a standard sea-going boat that will fit on the inland waterways? If so then I would be open to buying rather than building.

 

I have done around half of the canals but the goal is to be able to do both in the same boat.

 

I think the only one that comes close is a specific model of the Freeman 23 (not sure about the 23) but that is only 23ft long with a beam of 7 feet so may jam in some narrow locks. Typically, they had a small Ford petrol engine. I doubt it would do 10 knots, and I would not fancy being in a rough sea with it.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think the only one that comes close is a specific model of the Freeman 23 (not sure about the 23) but that is only 23ft long with a beam of 7 feet so may jam in some narrow locks. Typically, they had a small Ford petrol engine. I doubt it would do 10 knots, and I would not fancy being in a rough sea with it.

I don’t know if the OP knows standard Narrowboats are 6’10”, but on his dream boat he says he wants a 7’ beam and Leeboards, so may find it, as you say tight and a bit restrictive to where he can go, where there’s Narrow Locks involved.

 In all honesty the more I read the OP’s ideas the more ridiculous they sound, things like:

 

“interested in a cruiser deck that has rigid lid that folds down over the superstructure which is another unusual feature I know but I think would help keep the boat watertight”

 

“And then both sides and roof I would want virtually covered in solar panels. In fact I'm thinking of using the solar panels almost structurally, in that the boat would be a frame with solar panels fitting into the frame”

 

Edited April 22 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, dreamboater said:

Is it possible to get a standard sea-going boat that will fit on the inland waterways? If so then I would be open to buying rather than building.

 

 

I'll stick my neck and and say 'NO'.

 

You need a long, thin (6' 10") shallow draft(2' 6" ?) boat for the canals.

You need a wide, deep draft and as long as you want, boat for use on the Sea.

 

One of my sea going boats (Cat A) is 38' long x 23' wide, my other (Cat B ) is 36' long x 14 feet wide & draft is about 5' 6"

 

You need width for stability, you are not slowly drifting along on flat, still water, with banks only 10 feet away on either side.

 

I ask again - have you any 'lumpy water' experience, any experience planning cruises that are tidal, where you are maybe making 8-10 knots for 6 hours and then can be going backwards for the next 6 hours. If going 'across' the tide you may be heading directly for you arrival point and find that you are actually 20 miles 'off to the side' at the time you should arrive.

[Quattrodave]

What ever you build / have built is going to be a compromise, my guess is a massive compromise but hey, what do I know.... Hire a marine architect and pays your money... TBH you're gonna need one to get it's certification...

[Momac]

Narrowboats are designed and built specifically for the UK canals. Only the very adventurous take them to sea and then only in benign conditions.

2metre  waves will almost certainly sink a narrowboat.

A lumpy water boat may be able to do some canals but likely to be uncomfortable and possibly unwelcome and certainly not able to do narrow canals.

One boat to do both jobs is  not possible.

 

 

Edited April 22 by Momac

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

13 minutes ago, Momac said:

 

One boat to do both jobs is  not possible.

 

Maybe a “U” Boat, on the surface on Canals and beneath the waves on the Sea, the OP has mentioned fitting Snorkels😂

 I think I’ll jump ship on this one as I can’t really take it seriously.

Edited April 22 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[LadyG]

Buy a decent Dutch barge which already has offshore certification, find someone who can teach you a bit about motor boat handling and pilotage.

Spend a year or so pottering about the coast, learning how to handle it, how to navigate, wihout modern navigational software. Use paper charts and pilot books.

Anchor up, (try tbe west coast of Scotland.

I've sailed with lots of people, and some of them were just plain reckless. Needless to say i only sailed with them once!

When you are young and fit, and adventurous its a rite of passage.

Once you are over 23 life takes a differ course.

I sailed rag and stick, for many a year, enjoyed every minute.

Motor boats also need skill to handle, it does not take long to learn how to steer, but ther's a bit more than that to it.

When I left Goole on my NB, my heart sank, its so boring, lol.

Edited April 22 by LadyG

[Stroudwater1]

There’s also the Wye invader that regularly cruises the Severn estuary/ tidal River Wye. Theres much YouTube on their exploits. 
 

Folk here do regularly make crossings of the Mersey or Ribble link or tidal Trent to Keadby and less navigate the Trent into the Humber Thames/Medway or the Wash . Care needs to be exercised of course.  
 

A few narrowboats have gone over to the French canals though most of these have got craned out in the UK and craned back in on French canals. Several detailed blogs exist , and I believe some are members here. Theres a change in times you can’t generally have unrestricted stay over in Europe but one for you to look into if you are wanting that. (cue posters muscling in on Brexit debates- please don’t, it’s as boring as the RCD/RCR comments ) 

 

Im sure some on here can advise about the electric motor side. @IanD has recently had one built. I imagine he will want  to do some of the occasional trips mentioned above. I fear you will be compromising too much if you concentrate on sea worthiness though and you will lose much cruising time with the sort of alterations you describe.  
 

 Best to focus on what your main wants are. If it’s mostly marine cruising then the compromise maybe unnecessary and best buy a different type of boat

 

A posting on here re the Wye invader 

 

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Totally off the wall idea and happy to be shot down in flames. How about two narrowboats? Use them as a motor and butty on the narrow canals, then bolt them together to form a catamaran for wider canals and the sea.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

12 hours ago, dreamboater said:

I have been hire boating many years, but now that I'm retired I'm ready to sell up and build my dream liveaboard, so I thought I would join this forum and get some advice.

 

12 hours ago, dreamboater said:

I realise this is a big dream. I know it will take a long time, both to find a building willing to do it and to wait for a slot. and I know it will take a lot of money. But when you have time and money then dreams can come true, right?!??!?!????

Your going to sell up and live on this dream boat, can I ask your age and how much your prepared to spend on this dream boat? How much do think this dream boat will cost you with your quirky ideas?

[Tony Brooks]

40 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Totally off the wall idea and happy to be shot down in flames. How about two narrowboats? Use them as a motor and butty on the narrow canals, then bolt them together to form a catamaran for wider canals and the sea.

 

I know roping together is not the same, but did that chap who took a full length pair to the Black Sea by water all the way get into a spot of trouble doing this. Not sure if it was in the channel, but I know he sunk one on the Rhine.

 

I suspect the stresses in the bolts and struts if needed would be very great in a side swell, so again he needs a naval architect.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I suspect the stresses in the bolts and struts if needed would be very great in a side swell, so again he needs a naval architect.

You could easily see much of the full weight of a hull repeatedly coming on the bolts and struts in various combinations of tensile and shear forces in a swell.

[Bee]

I had 3 narrowboats, did that for 12 yrs or so. Then a gap of some years, house kids etc. Then 15 years ago fitted out a 10metre x 3.4 metre tug and have kept it on the European canals, (Also travelled the Thames, Severn, GU to nearly Braunston, Warks. Avon,bristol Avon and River Wey) Have since travelled many miles in Europe and i reckon that is probably the best way to do it - Not the only way by any means, I did wonder about a small fishing boat at one time with rudimentary accomodation and also a Wilderness Beaver or similar but the compromises between narrowboat and sea going are very difficult. Also looked out of the window of my narrowboat near Warwick once to see Shane Acton and Shrimpy going by (look it up on Google) - buy the book if you can find it, it is inspirational.

[Tacet]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

You could easily see much of the full weight of a hull repeatedly coming on the bolts and struts in various combinations of tensile and shear forces in a swell.

Some hefty brackets atop the gunnel both front and back on both boats, bolted to RSJs spaced to form a catamaran would result in more manageable forces.  Winding action between the boats would be the most troublesome.

[Tam & Di]

2 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

 

Your going to sell up and live on this dream boat, can I ask your age and how much your prepared to spend on this dream boat? How much do think this dream boat will cost you with your quirky ideas?

 

And how long do you think it would take to get such a vessel built and all its systems properly tested? Most of the options quoted are possible, but why would you have them? Boats cross the Channel without Cat B and C - it just takes careful choice of when. It's doubtlessly possible to design a boat with fully automatic controls that could run up and down the sytem with no-one on board if you really tried.

 

People enjoy boats for any number of reasons - exploring canals, visiting pubs, widlife and bird watching - all perfectly reasonable. We had owners at our yard who visited their boat on the hard every weekend for years, and never had any realistic expectation of cruising. For some the dream of designing their perfect boat is their major hobby, and perhaps the OP gets more from this than ever he would if the project came to conclusion.

[LadyG]

3 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Totally off the wall idea and happy to be shot down in flames. How about two narrowboats? Use them as a motor and butty on the narrow canals, then bolt them together to form a catamaran for wider canals and the sea.

Or build a narrowboat with swivel lee boards (or a centreboard as found on the Mirror Dinghy).

You could have wooden outriggers for crossing choppy seas.

Its a pity horses are no longer allowed on the towpath, they would save the CRT a fortune in grass cutting costs if we all had one,  it would save the cost of mining lithium.

Edited April 23 by LadyG

[howardang]

If you are serious about combining offshore cruising with inland waterways my suggestion would be, before you waste time, energy and mony on building a compromise vessel, is to get some experience of offshore conditions and requirements (and limitations. You mention certain requirements but you don't speak of any experience of conditions offshore, and the demands required of a boat and crew. Have you any knowledge of realistic conditions which you may find and level of experience required to be confident in venturing offshore. This sounds very much like a pipe-dream which will never come to reality. Much better to take the earlier advice to buy a narrow boat and spend some time exploring inland waterways and then see if your dream exists. If so, get some experience in offshore boats - possibly by taking a few RYA courses, before wasting money on what might be an unrealistic pipe-dream.

 

Howard 

 

[Bacchus]

If you forget narrow canals, a Peter Nicholls Huffler will take you a lot of places...