Inverter Recommendations?

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Fried beef and Yorkshire pudding. DELICIOUS!

 

The arir fryer does superb yorkies. Crispy around the edge and 'fluffy' bubbly inside

[MtB]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The arir fryer does superb yorkies. Crispy around the edge and 'fluffy' bubbly inside

 

I'll try them in mine. 

 

Its far too small to do a decent roast dinner for even one person yet takes up a TONNE of worktop space, unlike my gas oven.

 

 

 

 

[IanD]

If you're doing something that will fit in -- and works in an air fryer, not everything does! -- then an air frier uses considerably less energy than an oven. But it has to come out of the batteries and be replaced (solar?), as opposed to just burning some gas on most boats, and does mean a reasonably hefty inverter and batteries are needed. If you have these anyway (and the space to fit one in), they're a great idea... 🙂

 

If you're cooking something bigger (like a roast dinner) which won't fit into the air fryer all at once, an oven is a better bet.

 

 

 

Edited February 29 by IanD

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

If you've got gas on the boat it's a lot cheaper (and quieter) to use that for cooking instead of electric charged by an alternator which means running the engine.

 

Do you mean your thermostat turns the inverter on and off? Surely it turns the *fridge* on and off? The inverter no-load power is drawn 24h a day unless you turn the mains off...

😉

 

Ah yes, you're right, I was mixing up my loads, but it's only about 14 Ah/day which is still not worth worrying about.

[nicknorman]

58 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Fried beef and Yorkshire pudding. DELICIOUS!

Hmmm, you have never used an air fryer, have you?!

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

Honestly,  if I was doing it all again, I wouldn't bother with an inverter at all.  

 

I'd still have an inverter. On my boat I want different methods available to do the same thing. Backup and built-in redundancy is what it's all about in my opinion.

 

What about when it's pissing down with rain and all you wanted was to have a couple of slices of toast. You'd have to go outside and startup a generator. And then you find you're out of petrol... I've got a generator too but I'm certainly not going to go outside and start it up for things like that. As long as you have a battery monitor there should be no undue strain on the batteries so I really don't see the disadvantage of having an inverter, apart from the initial cost.

[doratheexplorer]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

People build and install things on boats -- and everywhere else -- for lots of reasons, not just cost-benefit. Why have an expensive trad engine when you can have a cheap secondhand modern diesel? Why pay the extra for a hull from one of the premium builders and fit it out expensively when you could get something superficially similar from a cheapo builder? Why have an inverter at all when you can make do with much less electrical "stuff" on board, if that suits your lifestyle? Why have an expensive comfy sofa or bed when you could have a much cheaper one?

 

A modern electrical setup with things like LFP batteries/inverter/solar/big alternator+controller/generator does cost a lot more money than a "traditional" narrowboat one with a few LA batteries, but means you can treat the mains more like in a house with whatever appliances you want -- but in the end it's a matter of convenience/preference, not absolute necessity. If you don't want to do this or can't afford it, then stick with "traditional" electrics, neither approach is "wrong" or "right".

 

Going the whole hog with massive LFP batteries/inverter/generator just to get rid of gas for cooking really doesn't make sense on a conventional diesel boat due to the cost; the reverse is true on an electric/hybrid (like mine) where all this exists anyway as part of the propulsion system, but there are only a tiny number of boats like this on the canals today due to the very high up-front cost... 😉

 

 

It's not just about cost.  If your electricity consumption is high, then for 4-6 months a year, when solar is insufficient, you're left with having to charge your battery a lot, just to replenish what you've used.  However you do that is likely to be noisy, and a general nuisance to you and others.  The OP suggests they'll be cruising a lot which would help, but I doubt it will be anywhere near enough to keep those batteries in good condition throughout the winter, hence my comment about wrecking batteries.  Will they really be cruising 4+ hours a day 7 days a week?

Edited February 29 by doratheexplorer

[blackrose]

I have no experience with lithium batteries but if they (along with solar panels) allow you to do all your cooking on electric then they're obviously a game changer. I'm still stuck in the last century with LA batteries and try to avoid heating anything for too long with them. The only exception to that is the washing machine which I run during the day with the help of 910w of solar panels, but even then I use gas to heat a kettle full of water which I pour into the detergent drawer at startup. On one sunny day I turned the immersion heater on, keeping an eye on my battery monitor, but I only did it as a test of my new solar setup. After about 2 hours I had a hot calorifier and I think it had taken the batteries down from 100% to about 70% but there was enough sun left to get them back to 100%.

 

I can't see myself changing my batteries for lithium in the future. There's other equipment that would need changing too and since LAs work fine for me I can't really justify the expense.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

25 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Hmmm, you have never used an air fryer, have you?!

neither have I,

I’m sure I’ve used a microwave but can’t remember when,

 

definitely a proper Luddite,

 

all 12v, I cook with gas and sometimes use the stove to cook,

hand shadows illuminated by a candle for evening entertainment,

 

(ETA : a Luddite with a smart phone and iPad)

Edited February 29 by beerbeerbeerbeerbeer

[doratheexplorer]

24 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I'd still have an inverter. On my boat I want different methods available to do the same thing. Backup and built-in redundancy is what it's all about in my opinion.

 

What about when it's pissing down with rain and all you wanted was to have a couple of slices of toast. You'd have to go outside and startup a generator. And then you find you're out of petrol... I've got a generator too but I'm certainly not going to go outside and start it up for things like that. As long as you have a battery monitor there should be no undue strain on the batteries so I really don't see the disadvantage of having an inverter, apart from the initial cost.

Why would anyone start a genny for toast?  I've always made toast under the grill anyway.  As I and others have already said, using electricity on any appliance which produces heat, while off-grid, is a bad idea.

 

I suspect, as usual, we have a lot of commenters on this thread who have never continuously cruised and lived aboard permanently through the winter.  It's a very different game, and in my experience, the only way to play it, is to minimise your electricity consumption. 

[IanD]

14 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

It's not just about cost.  If your electricity consumption is high, then for 4-6 months a year, when solar is insufficient, you're left with having to charge your battery a lot, just to replenish what you've used.  However you do that is likely to be noise, and a general nuisance to you and others.  The OP suggests they'll be cruising a lot which would help, but I doubt it will be anywhere near enough to keep those batteries in good condition throughout the winter, hence my comment about wrecking batteries.  Will they really be cruising 4+ hours a day 7 days a week?

It all depends on your setup, which mainly means how much you spend on it.

 

If you're using a relatively low-current inefficient 12V alternator for battery charging in winter -- especially with LA batteries -- then you'll have to run the engine for hours most days, wasting a lot of fuel and adding running hours. The power generated is very expensive, using it for cooking makes little or no sense.

 

If you're using a cocooned diesel generator with LFP batteries (at a price!) then I would be very surprised if you have to run for more than an hour per day (quietly!) when moored -- or even for longer less often with a big battery bank. Fuel used will probably be about a third of the above "traditional" setup, running time and cost even lower.

 

All this is saying is that if you want to have an electric-heavy boat, you need to spend the money and do a proper job -- if not, stay "traditionally" electric-light... 😉

Edited February 29 by IanD

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

Do you mean your thermostat turns the inverter on and off? Surely it turns the *fridge* on and off? The inverter no-load power is drawn 24h a day unless you turn the mains off..

I'm sure someone has posted here before about using the thermostat connection on a mains fridge to drive a relay which then switches the inverter on and off, so the inverter only draws power when the fridge motor runs. Can also be used to switch fans which draw cold air from the bilges and blow it over the cooling coils at the back of the fridge to improve efficiency.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

f you're using a relatively low-current inefficient 12V alternator for battery charging in winter -- especially with LA batteries -- then you'll have to run the engine for hours most days, wasting a lot of fuel and adding running hours.

unless of course you use very little electricity and then solar combined with charging as you move is more than enough even in the winter,

which I think is the point being said about not using an electric kettle, toasters, microwaves etc,

 

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

t all depends on your setup, which mainly means how much you spend on it.

 

if one isn’t using much electricity then an expensive/advanced/complex set up is simply not needed,

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I'm sure someone has posted here before about using the thermostat connection on a mains fridge to drive a relay which then switches the inverter on and off, so the inverter only draws power when the fridge motor runs. Can also be used to switch fans which draw cold air from the bilges and blow it over the cooling coils at the back of the fridge to improve efficiency.

However to do that you need a traditional fridge with a passive thermostat, and these are not only difficult to find nowadays but tend to be older cheaper models which are less efficient than modern ones.

 

I'm pretty sure that when you add the numbers up the energy saved by turning the inverter off would be more than cancelled out by the extra energy used by the fridge when it's on... 😉

 

(also it isn't what @blackrose is doing anyway, he described it wrongly...)

Edited February 29 by IanD

[cheesegas]

14 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

It's not just about cost.  If your electricity consumption is high, then for 4-6 months a year, when solar is insufficient, you're left with having to charge your battery a lot, just to replenish what you've used.  However you do that is likely to be noisy, and a general nuisance to you and others.  The OP suggests they'll be cruising a lot which would help, but I doubt it will be anywhere near enough to keep those batteries in good condition throughout the winter, hence my comment about wrecking batteries.  Will they really be cruising 4+ hours a day 7 days a week?

Having an inverter doesn't mean you have to use it and all your electricity hungry appliances year round. My setup is just as efficient as one without an inverter in winter... In my last post I mentioned the best way to do it off grid is to use gas/woodburner during winter to cook, and free electricity from solar in summer.

 

As I mentioned before, if you're new to living off grid, it's very good advice to avoid heating things with electricity until you get an idea of how much energy your solar yields and how much energy various appliances use. Then you can look into changing your setup to suit your needs.

 

1 minute ago, doratheexplorer said:

As I and others have already said, using electricity on any appliance which produces heat, while off-grid, is a bad idea.

 

I suspect, as usual, we have a lot of commenters on this thread who have never continuously cruised and lived aboard permanently through the winter.  It's a very different game, and in my experience, the only way to play it, is to minimise your electricity consumption. 

I CC and live off grid and I'm quite vocal about recommending lithium batteries with lots of solar and electric kettles/induction hobs/air fryers to people. In summer, you save money on gas (although this is only £100 or so a year) and get greater convenience. With ample solar and the correct battery setup, there is no reason to minimise your electricity consumption in summer; quite the opposite, make the most of all that free energy raining down on your roof! FYI I don't have to run my engine to generate electricity for 8 months of the year.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

7 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I've always made toast under the grill anyway.

good toast is one thing I do miss,

and when I visit folk on land with a toaster I make up for it,

my grill’s not too good for toast so when I’ve a hanker for toast I do it in an iron skillet 

[David Mack]

Back to the OP's question.

You have a choice of Modified or Pure Sine Wave inverters.  MSW are cheaper, and are fine for simple equipment, but appliances with electronics in may be less happy, and some will emit magic smoke. PSW inverters used to be expensive, but the price has come down to more affordable levels, so you would be well advised to go that way.

Many would recommend Victron as a reliable and known brand. The cheap unbranded inverters you fund on the likes of ebay can be a risk and are best avoided. Between these extremes Sunshine Solar inverters have been recommended here in the past as being good enough quality and more affordable than the big brands.

[blackrose]

4 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

Why would anyone start a genny for toast?  I've always made toast under the grill anyway.  

 

I don't know why anyone would start a genny for toast, that was my point. But I don't have a gas grill on my boat, just separate oven and hob, so without an inverter I'd have to start the generator for toast.

 

Anyway, you mentioned using a generator to run power tools, so assuming the particular tool is corded and you just needed to use it for a minute, without an inverter you'd have to start the genny for that, so it's the same thing.

 

As a couple of people said earlier, nobody is forced to use their inverter, but it's better to have one than not to.

 

4 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

I suspect, as usual, we have a lot of commenters on this thread who have never continuously cruised and lived aboard permanently through the winter.  

 

This comment was posted in reply to my post, but I'll have to give you the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't aimed at me otherwise you would be making yourself look very foolish.

 

I've lived aboard for 22 years on two different boats including 3 years of CCing, so I have experienced a few winters onboard. 😌

Edited February 29 by blackrose

[nicknorman]

57 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I don't know why anyone would start a genny for toast, that was my point. But I don't have a gas grill on my boat, just separate oven and hob, so without an inverter I'd have to start the generator for toast.

 

Anyway, you mentioned using a generator to run power tools, so assuming the particular tool is corded and you just needed to use it for a minute, without an inverter you'd have to start the genny for that, so it's the same thing.

 

As a couple of people said earlier, nobody is forced to use their inverter, but it's better to have one than not to.

 

 

This comment was posted in reply to my post, but I'll have to give you the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't aimed at me otherwise you would be making yourself look very foolish.

 

I've lived aboard for 22 years on two different boats including 3 years of CCing, so I have experienced a few winters onboard. 😌

 

But with a reasonable system of solar and batteries and especially in the summer, there is no reason not to use a toaster. They are typically 800w which will take about 80A. But only for about 2 or 3 minutes. If we say 3 minutes, that is 4Ah. Not exactly going to break the bank!

[TheBiscuits]

8 hours ago, MtB said:

takes up a TONNE of worktop space, unlike my gas oven.

 

Well yes.  Most gas ovens take up exactly zero worktop space!

 

I thought you of all people would have known this ....

[cheesegas]

8 hours ago, MtB said:

Its far too small to do a decent roast dinner for even one person yet takes up a TONNE of worktop space, unlike my gas oven.

That's why when I remove my oven/hob unit, it'll open up a nice big space underneath, perfect for storing less used appliances like the air fryer, stick blender etc

[MtB]

9 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Hmmm, you have never used an air fryer, have you?!

 

 

Hmmm, you haven't actually read all my posts in this thread, have you?!

 

 

 

[nicknorman]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Hmmm, you haven't actually read all my posts in this thread, have you?!

 

 

 

Yes I have. But the real question is how much effort did I put into interpreting them. A sort of “look vs see” situation.

[IanD]

17 hours ago, nicknorman said:

 

But with a reasonable system of solar and batteries and especially in the summer, there is no reason not to use a toaster. They are typically 800w which will take about 80A. But only for about 2 or 3 minutes. If we say 3 minutes, that is 4Ah. Not exactly going to break the bank!

A 2-slice toaster draws around 900W typical (700W-1100W range), a 4-slice one about 1500W typical (1200W-1800W range). The bigger ones could certainly be a bit stressful on some battery banks and inverters, allowing for inverter losses and voltage drops (especially with LA batteries) a 4-slice one could end up drawing getting on for 200A... 😉

 

(but I agree that the Ah used is not a problem, electric gear that's on for a long time (or all the time) is the culprit here...)

[Victor Vectis]

23 hours ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

(ETA : a Luddite with a smart phone and iPad)

I can't help thinking that the Luddites had a point.

Jobs being destroyed, no thought given to what might replace those jobs etc.

(A bit like what happened after something that kicked off 40 years ago this month)