Lithium Batteries installation

[BEngo]

The Wakespeed alternator controller and something similar from Balmar are available, if high priced.  The design information for the Wakespeed is open source, and available on line.

 

As Nick has said, there are  also suitable alternators, suitable solar controllers and suitable battery chargers available, along with suitable switch gear and fuses. Some alternators may require modification, but for most it is not more complex than fitting a lead acid alternator controller like the Adverc, Sterling in various incarnations or X-Alt.

 

Alternatively, buy all the blue kit.

 

N

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

I understand where the insurance underwriters are coming from. But I get the feeling that the BSS people are a bit more pragmatic.

Now that the RCR / RCD specifies that electric propulsion boats should be built in accordance with ISO 23625 (Amendment to requirements of Annex I.A.5.3. Electrical system – "changes addressing electric propulsion").

 

1   Scope

This document provides requirements and recommendations for the selection and installation of lithium-ion batteries for boats. It applies to lithium-ion batteries and to battery systems with a capacity greater than 600 Wh, installed on small craft for providing power for general electrical loads and/or to electric propulsion systems. It is primarily intended for manufacturers and battery installers.

 

 

So any RCR / RCD compliant boats (ie all commercially built, and any home built 'self certifying' compliance) should be in accordance and I would expect the requirements to be incorporated into the BSS.

It would be very 'odd' for the BSS to have different standards to those required by Law.

 

 

 

Edited January 24 by Alan de Enfield

[nicknorman]

47 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It would be very 'odd' for the BSS to have different standards to those required by Law.

 

 

It might be very "odd" but it is the case for a number of BSS standards.

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

 

It might be very "odd" but it is the case for a number of BSS standards.

 

A new boat is built to the RCR / RCD and has the electrical propulsion system installed in accordance with the requirements (lets assume that it doesn't have the bodge of having an LA battery or a long resistance wire in the system)

 

The insurers (Matty has previously commented) require that batteries are installed by 'professional installers' but you suggest that the BSS will allow 'DIY home brewed systems' to be added into the system ?

[dmr]

1 hour ago, BEngo said:

The Wakespeed alternator controller and something similar from Balmar are available, if high priced.  The design information for the Wakespeed is open source, and available on line.

 

As Nick has said, there are  also suitable alternators, suitable solar controllers and suitable battery chargers available, along with suitable switch gear and fuses. Some alternators may require modification, but for most it is not more complex than fitting a lead acid alternator controller like the Adverc, Sterling in various incarnations or X-Alt.

 

Alternatively, buy all the blue kit.

 

N

The Arco Zeus, Wakespeed and Mastervolt Alpha look to be the three best alternator controllers for Lithium. The Zeus appears to be the best by a long way but is also the most expensive and very new. The Wakespeed looked good but does not do Bluetooth so it can be tedious to make adjustments, also it has changed hands and is now owned by a Lithium Battery brand.

It would be rather nice if Victron made something but I expect its a small and specialist market, but both the Wakespeed and Zeus claim to be well integrated into the Victron scheme of things.

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Now that the RCR / RCD specifies that electric propulsion boats should be built in accordance with ISO 23625 (Amendment to requirements of Annex I.A.5.3. Electrical system – "changes addressing electric propulsion").

But what does the RCR/RCD say about installations which are not for electric propulsion, I.e. for engine starting and domestic use on diesel powered boats?

[blackrose]

13 hours ago, Lochwarden said:

Run your new LiFePO4 in parallel with some LA. A lithium/ Lead acid hybrid set up will negate the need for any fancy charging gadgets and will protect your alternator once the LFP is fully charged and the BMS stops accepting the charge current from the alternator. It’s as simple as that. On my boat I have one 300ah LiFePO4 and 3 x 110ah lead acid in parallel. They work just fine together. 

 

I'm interested in this setup as if I ever switch to lithium I don't want all the hassle and expense of changing all my old pre lithium charging equipment.i think the only unit that might be able to be configured for lithium charging is my Epever MPPT, the rest is all old school.

 

However, I don't really understand how you can have 2 different battery types both being charged by the same system. Are the lithium and LA batteries both for domestic use?

12 hours ago, BEngo said:

Sorry, but I think that relying on  the internal  BMS  to shut off charging is risking rather a lot of money on the reliability of some Chinese electronics that were built down to a price.

 

The JBD (xiaoxang)   BMS  (used by Fogstar and sold by Overkill and others)  has a decent reputation, but they all are mostly newish.  When they get to be 4 or 5 years in use  I would like to have some redundant  automatic backup .  The time to put that in is at the start.

 

The other cloud  on the horizon is the BSS.  They have asked the IEE to look at the electrical parts of the BSS, with focus on Lithium batteries (and 240 V systems).  It seems that the review body are following in the footsteps of the USA's insurance led standards bodies and are not keen on mixed battery types ( hybrid installations), because a failure of the charge separator will lead to overcharging.  Overcharging Lithium batteries increases the risk of a battery fire.

 

N

 

 

 

Ok..  perhaps I'm not that interested after all...

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, blackrose said:

However, I don't really understand how you can have 2 different battery types both being charged by the same system. Are the lithium and LA batteries both for domestic use?

 

Typically, it would be an LA start battery feeding a Li domestic battery via something like an B to B charger or a VSR and a long cable to cause volt drop and prevent the Li burning the alternator out. The charge source will not care what battery chemistry it is feeding, but the battery may care if the charging voltage does not suit it.

 

Please note the warning that was given about the potential problems with Lochwarden's method and advice.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

No one has mentioned it yet, so I will. An intermediate approach between alternator control and resistive wire approach to alternator connection is to use a battery to battery charger. The alternator charges the starter lead acid batt, then one, or more B2B charger charges the Lithium bank. The Lithiums get a proper charging algorithm and shut off when full. The lead acid is charged as normal and doesn't spike the alternator diodes by shutting off. It is half way between in terms of cost and engineering elegance, but still safe and more tolerant to faults than the long wire method. A good thread to read on this and the other various alternator control methods is this one:

 

[magnetman]

Does this create a situation where the Lead Acid battery is effectively acting as a charger with variable output options? That'd would be excellent. 

 

I've never played with a B2B charger but if they are anything like the Victron MPPT solar controllers with bluetooth and user settings for voltage and maximum current it could be a really nice arrangement. One decent AGM battery for the alternator then charge the domestics Lithium batteries from that. 

 

 

[David Mack]

17 hours ago, GUMPY said:

I went for 

https://www.fogstar.co.uk/collections/lithium-leisure-battery

I note that different capacity batteries have the same case size. So do the lower capacity batteries for a particular case size just have more open air inside?

Different models seem to have significantly different lives. The 230Ah costing £700 has a life of 3500 cycles to 80% DOD, whereas the 280Ah version, £800, similar spec apart from the capacity and in the same size case, has a life of 6000 cycles. Why the difference?

[magnetman]

 

 

Another thing which occurred to me was could one use a solar MPPT controller between the lead acid battery and the lithium batteries? 

 

The reason this is interesting is one may find for a few months there is virtually no power from the solar so the MPPT could be repurposed temporarily while the diesel engine is doing most of the charging and the solar panel disconnected. 

 

For example I have a 50A Victron MPPT and during the darker months there is very little solar power in from the 800w array. Even a larger array will not put much in. 

 

So if it would work as a B2B it might be worth sticking it on the engine battery instead of the solar panels. 

 

Then when solar power season comes around again put it back on there. In fact the thing to do would be to have a little MPPT and a big one and swap them around. 

 

IF they work as a B2B. I don't know if the input voltage goes low enough for this to work. 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

12 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Does this create a situation where the Lead Acid battery is effectively acting as a charger with variable output options? That'd would be excellent. 

 

I've never played with a B2B charger but if they are anything like the Victron MPPT solar controllers with bluetooth and user settings for voltage and maximum current it could be a really nice arrangement. One decent AGM battery for the alternator then charge the domestics Lithium batteries from that. 

 

 

The B2B can be set so it is only charging with the engine running, ie the voltage from the lead acid is over 13 point something volts and will charge to suit the Li bank, including disconnect at full charge. Yes, the Victron B2B's have all the bluetooth and other interconnectivity, user settings and app monitoring that other modern Victron blue boxes have. Fully integrated in to their ecosystem. 

[magnetman]

Just checked and the MPPT need battery V + 5V to start working so unless one had a 24v alternator and lead acid battery this would not work. 

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

No one has mentioned it yet, so I will. An intermediate approach between alternator control and resistive wire approach to alternator connection is to use a battery to battery charger. The alternator charges the starter lead acid batt, then one, or more B2B charger charges the Lithium bank. The Lithiums get a proper charging algorithm and shut off when full. The lead acid is charged as normal and doesn't spike the alternator diodes by shutting off. It is half way between in terms of cost and engineering elegance, but still safe and more tolerant to faults than the long wire method.

 

But this hybrid system is the one the insurance companies are not 'happy with'

 

As @BEngo posted earlier :

 

The other cloud  on the horizon is the BSS.  They have asked the IEE to look at the electrical parts of the BSS, with focus on Lithium batteries (and 240 V systems).  It seems that the review body are following in the footsteps of the USA's insurance led standards bodies and are not keen on mixed battery types ( hybrid installations), because a failure of the charge separator will lead to overcharging.  Overcharging Lithium batteries increases the risk of a battery fire.

 

I seem to remember that @matty40s has previously posted similar information

[BEngo]

The claim from "drop in" sellers is that their batteries can be charged at normal alternator outputs.  That is to say 14.4 V.  That is true, up to a point, and their literature supports it.

What the sellers don't say is what happens when the battery is fully charged.  Then, either the battery overcharge protection cut out operates, giving the alternator an often terminal  surprise, or the battery is overcharged.  Overcharging increases the likelihood of a battery fire.

 

Nor do they point out that vehicle alternators cannot deliver full Li charge currents for very long without overheating.

 

17 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

Different models seem to have significantly different lives. The 230Ah costing £700 has a life of 3500 cycles to 80% DOD, whereas the 280Ah version, £800, similar spec apart from the capacity and in the same size case, has a life of 6000 cycles. Why the difference?

I suspect it is down to whose cells are inside.  More recent battery models tend to have much greater claimed cyclic life and slightly more capacity for a given volume.  

 

Cycle life is a reddish herring IMO, at least for domestic use.  6000 cycles is more than 15 years of one full discharge from 100% to 10v cycle per day.  That is longer than the claimed age-based life. It begs the question "Will the seller exist to claim off if a battery fails at 4000 cycles?"  

 Capacity may simply be a matter of the voltage at which Watt-hours are converted to Amp-hours, or it may be due to tweeks in the recipe for the Anodes and Cathodes to get more of the Li ions into them at the ends of charge/discharge cell or more of them into the cell overall.

 

15 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Another thing which occurred to me was could one use a solar MPPT controller between the lead acid battery and the lithium ?

 

Certainly one can buy BtoB chargers with an integrated MPPT.  I would wonder  whether a 'panel' voltage of only 14.4 volts ( ex alternator) would give the MPPT head room to work.  It would still not address the problem of alternator overheating.  I have also heard reports that disconnecting all the loads from a hard-working MPPT is likely to damage the controller.

.

 

N

 

 

 

[Tony1]

9 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

 

Another thing which occurred to me was could one use a solar MPPT controller between the lead acid battery and the lithium batteries? 

 

IF they work as a B2B. I don't know if the input voltage goes low enough for this to work. 

 

By Jove Sir, you may be onto something there. 

Not that I would know, of course, being an electrical ignoramus.

But if it does work and your boat isn't incinerated during the early testing phases, I recommend painting the new device blue and marketing it as a 'Wictron'. And you'll need a sexy Dutch-English accent for the marketing videos. 

Go for it Sir. This time next year we'll be ruined millionaires. 

 

[nicknorman]

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

A new boat is built to the RCR / RCD and has the electrical propulsion system installed in accordance with the requirements (lets assume that it doesn't have the bodge of having an LA battery or a long resistance wire in the system)

 

The insurers (Matty has previously commented) require that batteries are installed by 'professional installers' but you suggest that the BSS will allow 'DIY home brewed systems' to be added into the system ?

My point was that the BSS has a history of applying different standards from those required by the relevant ISO. A simple example being that the ISO allows soldered lpg gas connections such as you would find in a house, whereas the BSS does not. So a boat built in full compliance with the RCD/RCR can still be a "fail" for the BSS. Similarly, things that are allowed by the BSS are contrary to the ISOs applicable to the RCD/RCR. So in answer to your final question, who knows?!

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, BEngo said:

Nor do they point out that vehicle alternators cannot deliver full Li charge currents for very long without overheating.

 

Just a thought - my car has a 170 amp water cooled alternator, apart from the price, would that be a suitable option for the high current, extended run times required by Lithiums ?

[magnetman]

4 minutes ago, BEngo said:

  It would still not address the problem of alternator overheating.  

 

 

I was thinking of the fact one can set the output amperage via the Bluetooth connected application. 

 

So you could tailor the output to alternator behaviour. 

1 minute ago, Tony1 said:

 

By Jove Sir, you may be onto something there. 

Not that I would know, of course, being an electrical ignoramus.

But if it does work and your boat isn't incinerated during the early testing phases, I recommend painting the new device blue and marketing it as a 'Wictron'. And you'll need a sexy Dutch-English accent for the marketing videos. 

Go for it Sir. This time next year we'll be ruined millionaires. 

 

 

Unfortunately the Victron MPPT needs battery V +5V to start working. 

 

I wonder if this is to separate the product from the B2B products. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

 

I was thinking of the fact one can set the output amperage via the Bluetooth connected application. 

 

So you could tailor the output to alternator behaviour. 

 

If you tailor the alternator output to suit the alternator (ie keep it at a lower level so it doesn't overheat) does that not remove one of the major benefits of Lithiums over FLA batteries ?

 You would now need to run the engine for (possibly) just as many hours as you would for charging FLA's

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

 

However, I don't really understand how you can have 2 different battery types both being charged by the same system. Are the lithium and LA batteries both for domestic use?

 

 

It is because of the similarities, and also the differences, between the two battery chemistries. Under discharge, the Li battery voltage remains above 13v until it is nearly flat, and so discharge current comes only from the Li, not from the LA which would have to be pulled down below 12.7v to get significant discharge.

On recharge, a voltage of 14.4v will fully charge both an LA battery and a Li battery - although from the previous para you can see that it is unlikely that the LA will need significant recharging.

 

All well and good so far, but the devil being in the detail... the Li battery sits at around 13.6v or less during charge, until it is very close to full. To correctly charge a Li battery, the voltage will be above 14v only for a few minutes. Li batteries do not like being held up at 14.4v or whatever, for extended periods. Whereas if the LA has in fact been discharged (due to nearly depleting the Li such that the voltage falls below 12.7v) then it needs to be held up at 14.4v for several hours to properly recharge. It is here that there is the conflict between the needs of the LA vs the needs of the Li.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But this hybrid system is the one the insurance companies are not 'happy with'

 

As @BEngo posted earlier :

 

The other cloud  on the horizon is the BSS.  They have asked the IEE to look at the electrical parts of the BSS, with focus on Lithium batteries (and 240 V systems).  It seems that the review body are following in the footsteps of the USA's insurance led standards bodies and are not keen on mixed battery types ( hybrid installations), because a failure of the charge separator will lead to overcharging.  Overcharging Lithium batteries increases the risk of a battery fire.

 

I seem to remember that @matty40s has previously posted similar information

The failure of any Lithium charger could lead to overcharging, since they are all separators between the input source and the Li bank. This would include mains, solar MPPT's, or even alternator controllers. I'm not seeing how a properly engineered B2B from the likes of Victron would be any different. 

[nicknorman]

38 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

No one has mentioned it yet, so I will. An intermediate approach between alternator control and resistive wire approach to alternator connection is to use a battery to battery charger. The alternator charges the starter lead acid batt, then one, or more B2B charger charges the Lithium bank. The Lithiums get a proper charging algorithm and shut off when full. The lead acid is charged as normal and doesn't spike the alternator diodes by shutting off. It is half way between in terms of cost and engineering elegance, but still safe and more tolerant to faults than the long wire method. A good thread to read on this and the other various alternator control methods is this one:

 

 

Yes however there are two undesirables - one being that modern boats generally have 2 alternators (although this issue can be overcome by rewiring) and the B2B is both very expensive and very inefficient, turning a lot of generated power into heat.

[magnetman]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If you tailor the alternator output to suit the alternator (ie keep it at a lower level so it doesn't overheat) does that not remove one of the major benefits of Lithiums over FLA batteries ?

 You would now need to run the engine for (possibly) just as many hours as you would for charging FLA's

 

Yes. What is actually happening is that ordinary alternators are proving to be inadequate. There is indeed no point charging lithium batteries slowly but if the alternative is a fried alternator there are not that many choices. 

 

I wonder if permanent magnet alternators may be interesting here.