Wood burning and health

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Who is going to enforce it? Not councils, because they've got no staff left. Not the police, because there aren't any outside the odd car. Traffic wardens? And what courts are going to decide the penalties? About the only thing the courts are any good for in a timescale shorter than years is authorising evictions.

Governments are very good at passing laws to please certain newspapers that affect vast numbers of people and then forgetting about them. Luckily.

300 squids a fine already happening one on here has already been fined. In reality it could be a nice earner for the council bringing in 5k a day?

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

What may be difficult, will be (apart from the non-moving London ghettos) that by the time the boat has been reported and enforement started, the boat can be 'miles away;

 

That is always the argument about boats stopping more than 30 days on Winter moorings and requiring planning permission.

It's a  instant fine, I suppose you could appeal but if they have pictures you are beat

[Mike Tee]

8 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Being taken out after four or five years round here as we type and replaced with oil boilers again, each and every day.

Is that because of running costs or just not efficient enough? (Our yet to be built 'retirement' flat is planned to have these so just collecting info!)

[peterboat]

12 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

Is that because of running costs or just not efficient enough? (Our yet to be built 'retirement' flat is planned to have these so just collecting info!)

Modern builds love heat pumps especially if under floor heating 

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, Mike Tee said:

Is that because of running costs or just not efficient enough? (Our yet to be built 'retirement' flat is planned to have these so just collecting info!)

I would think that your not yet built flat may well be fine?? It will be purpose built with todays equipment taken into account. Probably under floor heating and insulated etc etc. The ones I am talking about are places such as mine built like a tank with thick solid stone walls without a cavity and lovely high ceilings. A local friend of mine is distraught with hers its a 50s built council property and the council stuck ASHP in loads of them. She gets massive and I mean massive bills to remain cold. A local to me house has just had theirs taken out and oil back in. There are one or two others nearby and one, a very recent instalation is far from quiet. I havnt googled but I dont think you can get the radiaters hot enough if you just try to so called update an older system? My rads with oil boiler will burn your hand if I want and remain extremely hot throughout the house and from start up that takes minutes. A friend next street has just had big company out and she is having electric heaters fitted in each room, not ASHP as she was told they wouldnt work without other vast cost. The leccy heaters are not cheap mind. My system was a complete new system I had fitted two years ago, the big busy company told me that ASHP would cost me many thousands more and be far less efficient, they fit all manner of heating systems so I listened. I am very happy with my oil system.

[peterboat]

10 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I would think that your not yet built flat may well be fine?? It will be purpose built with todays equipment taken into account. Probably under floor heating and insulated etc etc. The ones I am talking about are places such as mine built like a tank with thick solid stone walls without a cavity and lovely high ceilings. A local friend of mine is distraught with hers its a 50s built council property and the council stuck ASHP in loads of them. She gets massive and I mean massive bills to remain cold. A local to me house has just had theirs taken out and oil back in. There are one or two others nearby and one, a very recent instalation is far from quiet. I havnt googled but I dont think you can get the radiaters hot enough if you just try to so called update an older system? My rads with oil boiler will burn your hand if I want and remain extremely hot throughout the house and from start up that takes minutes. A friend next street has just had big company out and she is having electric heaters fitted in each room, not ASHP as she was told they wouldnt work without other vast cost. The leccy heaters are not cheap mind. My system was a complete new system I had fitted two years ago, the big busy company told me that ASHP would cost me many thousands more and be far less efficient, they fit all manner of heating systems so I listened. I am very happy with my oil system.

The problem is Tim, Grant's are available for heat pumps, at one point large ones, the heating engineers in our yard are fitting systems all the time but they know what they are doing and use the grant system to good effect. 

[mrsmelly]

7 minutes ago, peterboat said:

The problem is Tim, Grant's are available for heat pumps, at one point large ones, the heating engineers in our yard are fitting systems all the time but they know what they are doing and use the grant system to good effect. 

Indeed they are. At the moment here in Wales and several are taking them up including a drinking buddy, if you have an income of less than 31k you can have an entire system fitted including solar panels and heating etc etc. I aint doing it, no ASHP going in here and the solar panels would only save me twenty quid a week at best so the mess and redecorating aint happening. Plenty are doing it but I aint spoiling my lovely old house to save peanuts.

[Jerra]

46 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I would think that your not yet built flat may well be fine?? It will be purpose built with todays equipment taken into account. Probably under floor heating and insulated etc etc. The ones I am talking about are places such as mine built like a tank with thick solid stone walls without a cavity and lovely high ceilings. A local friend of mine is distraught with hers its a 50s built council property and the council stuck ASHP in loads of them. She gets massive and I mean massive bills to remain cold. A local to me house has just had theirs taken out and oil back in. There are one or two others nearby and one, a very recent instalation is far from quiet. I havnt googled but I dont think you can get the radiaters hot enough if you just try to so called update an older system? My rads with oil boiler will burn your hand if I want and remain extremely hot throughout the house and from start up that takes minutes. A friend next street has just had big company out and she is having electric heaters fitted in each room, not ASHP as she was told they wouldnt work without other vast cost. The leccy heaters are not cheap mind. My system was a complete new system I had fitted two years ago, the big busy company told me that ASHP would cost me many thousands more and be far less efficient, they fit all manner of heating systems so I listened. I am very happy with my oil system.

Our last house was built in 1752 and had such walls.  The central heating was from a stove.  We were away for a fortnight skiing over Christmas and the New Year.  A friend went in to light the fire the day before we got back.  He said our house was warmer than his more recent build.  The thickness of the walls seemed to help delay heat loss.

[mrsmelly]

5 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Our last house was built in 1752 and had such walls.  The central heating was from a stove.  We were away for a fortnight skiing over Christmas and the New Year.  A friend went in to light the fire the day before we got back.  He said our house was warmer than his more recent build.  The thickness of the walls seemed to help delay heat loss.

Could well be, its not a cold house but the upheavel alone isnt worth the hassle and I like my rads hot. ASHP would not keep my house at a minimum of 21 throughout. The whole shebang is free here at present, lots of English blokes staying in local B and B pubs fitting free everything to several houses.

[Ronaldo47]

A few months ago (I don't recall if it was a letter in a newspaper or a  radio programme) someone was recounting how they had tried to be green by installing the recommended energy-conserving double glazing, draught proofing etc., and replacing their gas boiler with a heat pump. They had been rewarded by getting a lower house efficiency rating certificate. The rating reflects the cost of heating a house, and the heat pump cost significantly more to run to get the house up to temperature  than the gas boiler, even with the double glazing etc. 

 

There was an item in the papers at the time about the government investigating the noise pollution that multiple air-source heat pumps could generate, given that they needed to run 24/7.  Coincidentally, on the radio a week or so later, a reporter had visited a new housing development where all houses had such heat pumps, and commented on the continuous whine. The representative of the development said that people soon got used to it. 

 

The trouble with heat pumps is that they can only produce relatively low-temperature heat. Given time, they can raise the temperature of the air in a room to the same temperature as by using the hotter radiators of a gas or oil boiler, hence the need for continuous operation. However, your sensation of comfort is not determined by air temperature per se, but by the balance between the heat your body radiates to, and the radiated heat it receives from,  your surroundings. That is why you can sunbathe in comfort surrounded by snow in a montain-top ski resort in bright sunshine when the air temperature is well below freezing. Old people especially need a source of radiant heat to maintain comfort as their bodies are less able to regulate their temperature.

 

This was demonstrated to me when the council replaced my late mother's gas boiler by a new condensing model. When I visited her afterwards, I found she was using her gas fire as well as the central heating as she couldn't get warm with just the central heating. The installer had left the boiler thermostat on the highest setting for it to operate in condensing mode. After I had turned it up to a higher temperature, the radiators got to the temperature the old boiler had got them to,  and mum didn't need to use the gas fire any more.  But then the boiler was no longer operating in its alleged 90%+  efficiency mode. Apparently this is the way most condensing boilers get used.

The council had previously insulated her cavity walls and loft, and fitted new double-glazed windows and exterior doors, but without her source of high temperature radiant heat, she felt cold.

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Ronaldo47
typos

[sigsegv]

Not entirely sure what the point of this topic is. Yes, I imagine most boaters are aware that pollution has effects on health, and that setting fire to things for heat contributes to localised pollution. Or maybe they're not and read this thread and suddenly become aware. But then what? Are they going to decide to stop burning wood and coal, and simply be cold in winter because they cannot afford a less polluting solution to heating their homes in winter?

There's an interesting line between 'making people aware' about things and chastising them about things they are not in a position to change.

For better or for worse, there are a lot of people living on boats and the most energy and cost efficient way to maintain a comfortable living situation in the depths of winter is to burn wood and coal in a big iron box. Informing them of the effects of PM2.5 particulates on the respiratory system essentially does fxxk all except potentially make them feel guilty - they have no other option.

To be charitable, because I apologise that this is a bit of a rant and I guess I'm coming off quite abrasive, maybe you are targeting those that *are* in a position to do something different - those that have a reasonable amount of money and therefore *can* choose other options for heating their boats in winter, or have other abodes that can be heated with methods that don't cause as much localised pollution such that they don't need to worry about the issues with heating a 50-70ft floating steel tube in winter.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Chris Lowe
language

[Jerra]

11 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

Old people especially need a source of radiant heat to maintain comfort as their bodies are less able to regulate their temperature.

That is going to be a problem with most central heating as those things we call radiators are actually mainly giving heat by convection.  Of course they radiate heat but most of the heating of a room is by convection.  You need to be very close to a radiator to feel a lot of heat.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Jerra

[Tonka]

19 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I think this is what will drive electric cars to take over

I hope they indicate first

[magnetman]

Too much range anxiety for takeover manoovers. 

 

I bet what happens is people get all excited about the performance and get caught out with running out of battery. Slightly ironic to have such fantastically powerful cars yet drive around like an old biddy. 

 

I suppose it could be an overall positive if drivers slowed down a bit. 

[Mike Tee]

18 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

I would think that your not yet built flat may well be fine?? It will be purpose built with todays equipment taken into account. Probably under floor heating and insulated etc etc. The ones I am talking about are places such as mine built like a tank with thick solid stone walls without a cavity and lovely high ceilings. A local friend of mine is distraught with hers its a 50s built council property and the council stuck ASHP in loads of them. She gets massive and I mean massive bills to remain cold. A local to me house has just had theirs taken out and oil back in. There are one or two others nearby and one, a very recent instalation is far from quiet. I havnt googled but I dont think you can get the radiaters hot enough if you just try to so called update an older system? My rads with oil boiler will burn your hand if I want and remain extremely hot throughout the house and from start up that takes minutes. A friend next street has just had big company out and she is having electric heaters fitted in each room, not ASHP as she was told they wouldnt work without other vast cost. The leccy heaters are not cheap mind. My system was a complete new system I had fitted two years ago, the big busy company told me that ASHP would cost me many thousands more and be far less efficient, they fit all manner of heating systems so I listened. I am very happy with my oil system.

Thanks - it is planned to be well insulated but the developer, and the group we belong to, are proposing no underfloor heating, and radiators (which apparently will have to be bigger than 'usual'). Unfortunately its all or nothing as it is a smallish (29 units) block of flats and a housing cooperative so planning has been interesting! My current plan, assuming my health doesn't decline too much, is keep the smaller boat so I have an escape pod!!

[peterboat]

57 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

Thanks - it is planned to be well insulated but the developer, and the group we belong to, are proposing no underfloor heating, and radiators (which apparently will have to be bigger than 'usual'). Unfortunately its all or nothing as it is a smallish (29 units) block of flats and a housing cooperative so planning has been interesting! My current plan, assuming my health doesn't decline too much, is keep the smaller boat so I have an escape pod!!

Is it ground source or air source? I have friends with both, the ground source is better it seems, but the air source is cheaper to install. The ground source was installed in older properties but upgraded with additional insulation and double glazing. 

[Mike Tee]

Air source

[magnetman]

Wise move to keep the Boat as an escape pod. Very Wise. 

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Mike Tee said:

Air source

David at auchencairn garage has it in his large office and store, its changed the place dried it out and warmed it up, it's a window unit so it can in summer change to air conditioning. The large boat next to me has 2 air source heaters as well, again it really works for them, they installed them for going to south of France as air conditioning, but they are also hot dry air blowers and no condensation on their boat whatsoever! Last year in that hot spell they were cool.

Of course your air source will probably heat water for radiators 

Edited December 17, 2023 by peterboat

[Mike Tee]

I have to admit my wife is the driving force for this cooperative living (we will own the flat - leased - but the building will be owned and run by the group which is us the residents) so I have not really been too involved in it all. I’ve lived and worked in some odd places so don’t really care as long as it is comfortable etc. As regards the community living I’m a bit of a loner, hence the escape pod!

It sounds like this air source thing works OK provided the building is new and is designed properly around it, which I believe ours will be - it’s not the developers first rodeo so here’s hoping......

[IanD]

On 17/12/2023 at 02:17, sigsegv said:

Not entirely sure what the point of this topic is. Yes, I imagine most boaters are aware that pollution has effects on health, and that setting fire to things for heat contributes to localised pollution. Or maybe they're not and read this thread and suddenly become aware. But then what? Are they going to decide to stop burning wood and coal, and simply be cold in winter because they cannot afford a less polluting solution to heating their homes in winter?

There's an interesting line between 'making people aware' about things and chastising them about things they are not in a position to change.

For better or for worse, there are a lot of people living on boats and the most energy and cost efficient way to maintain a comfortable living situation in the depths of winter is to burn wood and coal in a big iron box. Informing them of the effects of PM2.5 particulates on the respiratory system essentially does fxxk all except potentially make them feel guilty - they have no other option.

To be charitable, because I apologise that this is a bit of a rant and I guess I'm coming off quite abrasive, maybe you are targeting those that *are* in a position to do something different - those that have a reasonable amount of money and therefore *can* choose other options for heating their boats in winter, or have other abodes that can be heated with methods that don't cause as much localised pollution such that they don't need to worry about the issues with heating a 50-70ft floating steel tube in winter.

As I thought I'd made clear above, boaters who have no other realistic option than a stove shouldn't be made to feel guilty or blamed, the problem with woodburners -- which has lead to the rapid increase in PM2.5 pollution from them over the last decade or so -- is the large numbers that have been installed in otherwise centrally-heated houses as a "lifestyle choice". And this is the reason that a ban on woodburners is likely to be brought in, maybe with exceptions for those who *need* to use them (or live in rural areas) as opposed to *choosing* to do so -- though given that most stoves can burn smokeless fuel which is many times less harmful this probably won't happen.

 

The likely consequence is that boaters will have to switch from (cheap/free) wood to (more expensive) smokeless fuel, which causes much lower levels of PM2.5 pollution.

 

There's also the fact that the effects are even worse on the boater than people outside, but like any other activity that increases risk (e.g. drinking, eating vast amounts of bacon...) that's down to the boater -- but still, this is something that people should be aware of.

Edited December 18, 2023 by IanD

[Mike Tee]

There used to be a time when boats were exempt from the restrictions on fire fuel - bring back the good old days (but not all of them).

[magnetman]

Yes it was 2021 when the 1993 Clean Air Act was updated to include Boats. 2021 Environment Act. 

 

Before that Boats were specifically excluded from smoke control regulations. 

 

"The Environment Act 2021, which became law on 9th November, will remove the partial exemption for vessels from the Clean Air Act 1993. Local authorities will now have the power to apply their Smoke Control Areas to vessels moored within the areas, under Section 73 and Schedule 12 of the Act."

 

 

 

The fact they are now included is presumably due to the increase in residential use of Boats having been noticed. 

 

What freedom will be curtailed next one wonders. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by magnetman
format

[Chewbacka]

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

…………..What freedom will be curtailed next one wonders. 

The person living in a house on the side of the canal with a smoky boat just a few feet from their doors and windows has a ‘right’ to breath clean air.  Unfortunately in an overcrowded environment one persons ‘freedoms’ forces another to suffer.  That’s why boats were included, too many selfish people enforcing their rights without regard to the consequences to others.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Chewbacka

[Alan de Enfield]

3 hours ago, magnetman said:

What freedom will be curtailed next one wonders. 

 

I seem to remember a Government spokes man/woman/it recently said that anyone too young to buy cigarettes today will never be old enough to buy them as there is a rolling increase in the age allowed to buy, and the age will increase faster than the 'potential buyer' ages.

[magnetman]

I was thinking more of curtailment of basic rights such as the right to not shiver when the weather is really cold.