HIN

[ditchcrawler]

25 minutes ago, Peanut said:

The HIN that has been foamed over, presumably punched or welded into the hull, is probably the correct HIN for the Hull.  I wouldn't think there would be anything wrong in claiming it.  Of course, the date in the HIN might not match the paperwork you have. AdE recently posted on the structure of a HIN.

I think that, as you bought the boat innocently through a broker, you get to keep it, even if it turns out to have a dark history. Someone will be along to correct me.

But if you can't find this HIN under the foam how do you know its the correct number, yes you get to keep it, but according to some postings on here you get to keep it for ever as you can't sell it..

[Peanut]

Sorry, I believed that Lady G had found one under the foam, I hadn't considered that she might imagine there was one there concealed from her.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

But if you can't find this HIN under the foam how do you know its the correct number, yes you get to keep it, but according to some postings on here you get to keep it for ever as you can't sell it..

 

Is it usual to foam the external starboard side of the boat ? Or, even the inside of the hull, maybe on the fuel tank or side of the weed hatch.

 

WHERE DO I FIND THE HULL IDENTIFICATION NUMBER?

It is marked on the boat in two places, one on the starboard side of the transom and a second hidden within the boat. The CIN is usually moulded or etched into the fabric of the boat hull to ensure permanency.

 

Some steel/aluminium vessels (often narrowboats) have this identification number stamped into one of the surfaces within the engine room.

[Alan de Enfield]

12 hours ago, MtB said:

Alan will be dobbing you in to InterPol as I type....

 

I have said many times previously that my Halo is unlikely to be any bigger or brighter than anyone else on the forum, I simply post the facts as they are printed in the RCD/RCR and, examples of how they are being applied and/or interpreted by brokers and other parties.

 

As shown by this, and other threads, there is a huge amount of ignorance on the subject and I am just trying to ensure that anyone buying / selling / building a boat is aware of the legal situation, they can then make an informed decision as to how they want to proceed.

 

I have no personal axe to grind if they ignore all of the rules and regs, or if they follow them blindly, however it seems that over the last few years the authorities & supply chain have started taking it more seriously and I'm sure we will see more and more the requirement for the paperwork to show compliance.

 

 

As it happens, having emailed Interpol regarding LadyG, they replied as follows :

 

Criminal activity should be reported to your local or national police. INTERPOL does not carry out investigations or arrest people; this is the responsibility of national police.

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As it happens, having emailed Interpol regarding LadyG, they replied as follows :

 

Criminal activity should be reported to your local or national police. INTERPOL does not carry out investigations or arrest people; this is the responsibility of national police.

 

Phew, that's a relief.

 

A relief because I too once bought a boat built since 1998 with no documention at all.

 

I've been on the run ever since.

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

Phew, that's a relief.

 

A relief because I too once bought a boat built since 1998 with no documention at all.

 

 

As you know, so did I (The CAT) and was fortunate to be able negotiate a huge discount on the price as it was not legally allowed to leave the EU country where I purchased it without the 'bits of paper'.

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

As you know, so did I (The CAT) and was fortunate to be able negotiate a huge discount on the price as it was not legally allowed to leave the EU country where I purchased it without the 'bits of paper'.

 

Mine doesn't even have a HIN as far as I know.

 

Should I give it up and turn myself in? 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

As you know, so did I (The CAT) and was fortunate to be able negotiate a huge discount on the price as it was not legally allowed to leave the EU country where I purchased it without the 'bits of paper'.

Maybe it was just hugely over priced to start with. ever watch celebrity Bargain Hunt where the shop is selling something for £200 but they buy it for £55. (Only being facetious Alan)

[Tonka]

12 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

Who is responsinle for putting the HIN on ? The hull builder or the boat fitter who are allowed to call themselves boat builder

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Who is responsinle for putting the HIN on ? The hull builder or the boat fitter who are allowed to call themselves boat builder

 

Theres a question :

 

Under the new (latest regs) a 'sailaway' boat is now treated as a 'finished' boat as it is a commercial sale and placing the boat on the market. A sailaway must now have a HIN / CIN / WIN, all paperworks and certificates of compliance up to whatever stage its is sold at, the buyer now becomes the boat builder and is responsible for ensuring that it is finished in accordance with the RCD/RCR.

 

I do not know if on 'completion' it is subject to having a new HIN / CIN / WIN as obviously the date part of the code could be several years old by the time of completion, or if it retains the orginal HIN / CIN / WIN and the paperwork, compliance certificate, update manuals etc are simply added to the owners manual.

 

This may help :

 

Example : A boat with an engine can be used (even if you are 'camping' on board), a boat without an engine cannot be used as intended.

I have been unable to find any definition of 'further construction work'. At what stage does 'fitting out' become 'further construction' Does it include building beds, furniture, bulkheads etc, ?

 

Extract of a letter from Trading Standards which clarifies their position to part completed craft.

 

 

“Where a watercraft is partly completed if it is not capable of being used for sport and leisure purposes (put into service). The manufacturer intends there to be further construction work to make it capable of being used. The watercraft should be accompanied by a declaration by the manufacturer or importer with the information required in Annex III. So a partly completed craft can be put on the market but cannot be put into service. Clause 2 is clear such watercraft may be placed on the market but only complete watercraft (Clause 1) can be placed on the market and/or put into service. It would be an offence to put into service (use) a part completed watercraft.

 

If a watercraft is intended to be used, ie if it can be put into service, it is as “complete” as the manufacturer intends it to be. At that stage, the craft must meet all the applicable essential health and safety requirements of the Directive and have a Declaration of Conformity with the information required in Annex IV, technical documentation with the documents listed in Annex IX and CE marking. This applies to all economic operators and private persons, subject to some exemptions.”

 

The 'Fit Out Pontoon' (Boat builders and BMF members) say :

 

 

The new Directive has effectively put an end to Sailaway boats (completed to all variety of levels) being supplied with an Annex lll(a) Declaration as was previously possible under Directive 94/25/EU. Under the new Directive (2013/53/EU) Sailaways (including hull only) would need to be supplied as completed craft.

Therefore for anyone purchasing a narrow boat sailaway from 18th January 2017 must ensure you have the necessary paperwork from your boat builder that is required of a ‘completed’ craft up to the current point of completion, this includes:

• A builders plate – makers details and technical information
• A CE mark
• A Craft or Hull Identification Number (CIN or HIN) – it is carried in two places on the boat; one should be hidden for security.
• An owners manual with information needed to use and maintain the boat safety
• A declaration of conformity (DoC)

 

 

IF the DIY owner was required to apply a new HIN / CIN / WIN then he would be required to register with the BMF as a 'boat builder'and get a Manufacturers ID - previously when the RYA was administering the RCD, they had a block of manufacturers numbers that were registered to them and they would issue and record a number as being allocated to the DIY builder.

 

I would speculate, (but who knows with officialdom) that the origial hull builders number would 'stand' for the finished boat, but, if it does affect anyone they should contact the BMF and ask. They are the ones responsible.

 

 

[LadyG]

13 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

Which supposedly cannot happen!

Private sale, came with paper trail.

[LadyG]

19 hours ago, Peanut said:

Sorry, I believed that Lady G had found one under the foam, I hadn't considered that she might imagine there was one there concealed from her.

You don't know me very well

[MtB]

7 hours ago, Tonka said:

Who is responsinle for putting the HIN on ? The hull builder or the boat fitter who are allowed to call themselves boat builder

 

And in saying this you demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of the regs.

 

The RCD/RCR defines "the builder" as the person co-ordinating the build of the finished boat. If this is the "boat fitter", then he or she has no choice, they ARE "the builder" for purposes of RCD/RCR whether the want to call themselves that, or not.

 

So its not a question of them being allowed to call themselves boat builder. They have no choice. Legally they ARE the boat builder whether they want to be called that or not. 

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by MtB
Speeling

[David Mack]

6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

IF the DIY owner was required to apply a new HIN / CIN / WIN then he would be required to register with the BMF as a 'boat builder'and get a Manufacturers ID - previously when the RYA was administering the RCD, they had a block of manufacturers numbers that were registered to them and they would issue and record a number as being allocated to the DIY builder.

Well it is still possible (if uncommon) for a private individual to build a boat from scratch, and to sell within 5 years, meaning the boat will have to be fully RCR compliant including a HIN. So there must still be a means for such a builder to obtain a Manufacturers ID.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

Well it is still possible (if uncommon) for a private individual to build a boat from scratch, and to sell within 5 years, meaning the boat will have to be fully RCR compliant including a HIN. So there must still be a means for such a builder to obtain a Manufacturers ID.

 

The screen shot I posted a couple of times does say that a manufacturer needs to apply to the BMF.

 

Indeed - & we should not forget that there is a much bigger world out there than DIY narrowboat building. There are a lot of GRP builders that have a mould and make their their own boat from scratch, (we even made some when I was at school at school - a long time before the RCD) I even know a guy who has spent many years building a concrete sailing boat.

 

This was why the RYA had a series of numbers registered under their name which they could issue to a home-builder.

 

It is only a guess but maybe the BMF do the same - after all they are responsible for the issuing of Builder ID numbers anyway.

[Momac]

 

 

 

 

 

[Tonka]

37 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

And in saying this you demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of the regs.

 

The RCD/RCR defines "the builder" as the person co-ordinating the build of the finished boat. If this is the "boat fitter", then he or she has no choice, they ARE "the builder" for purposes of RCD/RCR whether the want to call themselves that, or not.

 

So its not a question of them being allowed to call themselves boat builder. They have no choice. Legally they ARE the boat builder whether they want to be called that or not. 

 

 

 

So a Springer hull fitted out by S Hudson can become a Hudson boat so therefore not need the regular surveys when it reaches a certain age. 

Seems fraudulent and ridiculous to me

[matty40s]

6 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 

 

 

 

 

You keep referring to things that state we are still in the EU. 

Until the younger voters rescue us, we are no longer part of that crew.

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, Tonka said:

So a Springer hull fitted out by S Hudson can become a Hudson boat so therefore not need the regular surveys when it reaches a certain age. 

Seems fraudulent and ridiculous to me

 

The whole thing for UK inland boats is ridiculous, fine for real volume builders, but not for most inland production. Unfortunately we are saddled with the rules made for the volume sea going makers, so just have to pit up with.

[matty40s]

Strangely enough, builders like Aqualine, Collingwood etc, which are volume, still dont carry out some compliance details like inspection hatch fitted to fuel tanks.

[Momac]

34 minutes ago, matty40s said:

You keep referring to things that state we are still in the EU. 

Until the younger voters rescue us, we are no longer part of that crew.

Nevertheless the reference is a screen shot from the RYA website and it is a reference to current regulations. The reference to the EU is not relevant to the remainder of the text.

 

 

 

[Peanut]

1 hour ago, matty40s said:

You keep referring to things that state we are still in the EU. 

Until the younger voters rescue us, we are no longer part of that crew.

This is the RCR not the RCD, and is UK legislation affecting UK builders, which I am sure you understand.

The first paragraph points out that a UK home built boat sold in the EU within five years of completion, will have to comply with the RCD, the EU regulations.

The second paragraph, gives an exemption to home built boats built in the UK under the RCR, the UK regulation.

The third, requires a boat sold in the UK before the five-year period is up, will be required to comply with the design and construction requirements of the RCR and require a conformity assessment.

Clearly, if the home built boat is kept for five years, the exemption applies.

[Alan de Enfield]

29 minutes ago, Peanut said:

Clearly, if the home built boat is kept for five years, the exemption applies.

 

AS one of the conditions of Brexit 'we' agreed that the RCR would kept in line with the RCD and any changes of the RCD would be inplemented in the RCR.

 

The commission has stated that the 5 year eexmption means that if the seller sells the boat after 5 years it will require a PCA, if it is not sold by the builder then it remains exempt from the RCD.

 

There was a question asked of the EU comission (by the RYA, on behalf of a member)
 

Question:

What happens when the owner finishes fitting out the narrow boat but does not intend placing it on the market for 5 years: “does the completed boat need to comply with the RCD or just to the stage of hand over from boat builder to owner”?

 

The answer from the EU Commission was :

 

The boat is exempted, as long as it is not placed on the market. If the owner ever decides to place it on the market, then the completed boat needs to comply with the RCD

 

 

[Peanut]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

AS one of the conditions of Brexit, 'we' agreed that the RCR would be kept in line with the RCD and any changes to the RCD would be implemented in the RCR.

 

The commission has stated that the 5-year exemption means that if the seller sells the boat after 5 years it will require a PCA, if it is not sold by the builder, then it remains exempt from the RCD.

 

There was a question asked of the EU commission (by the RYA, on behalf of a member)
 

Question:

What happens when the owner finishes fitting out the narrow boat but does not intend placing it on the market for 5 years: “does the completed boat need to comply with the RCD or just to the stage of hand over from boat builder to owner”?

 

The answer from the EU Commission was :

 

The boat is exempted, as long as it is not placed on the market. If the owner ever decides to place it on the market, then the completed boat needs to comply with the RCD

 

 

Thank-you.

Would it be your understanding, that a home built boat, that has already been first placed on the market and sold under the exemption available at the time, would no longer be exempt were it to be resold? Laws not normally being retroactive.

[Momac]

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Question:

What happens when the owner finishes fitting out the narrow boat but does not intend placing it on the market for 5 years: “does the completed boat need to comply with the RCD or just to the stage of hand over from boat builder to owner”?

 

The answer from the EU Commission was :

 

The boat is exempted, as long as it is not placed on the market. If the owner ever decides to place it on the market, then the completed boat needs to comply with the RCD

 

 

It seems you are quoting something that dates back to 2006. I have copied a link to it below. The same document states 

The response you are quoting crucially misses the '5 years' .

But it is just a quote from a 17 year old document  which is not the current version of the  regulations which may well have involved  a change in the wording since 2006.

http://www.bluestarsurveys.co.uk/RCDComplianceGuide.pdf

 

.