HIN

[Midnight]

I expect when to day comes to sell up I won't be around so maybe I just need to leave a note saying "to be sold on Apollo Duck". 😆

[Tacet]

10 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The RCD / RCR is now for the life of the boat, the '5 year thing' is (apparently) no longer accepted.

Two aspects are being confused here.  The five year rule (no sale of a non-RCD boat within five years) and the requirement for ongoing PCAs in respect of previously RCDd vessels.

[Alan de Enfield]

24 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Two aspects are being confused here.  The five year rule (no sale of a non-RCD boat within five years) and the requirement for ongoing PCAs in respect of previously RCDd vessels.

 

No confusion here.

There have been examples of brokers refusing to take self fitouts without RCD documentation onto their books.

 

I think it is going back to the changes in 2017 where : 

 

A product is made available on the market when supplied for distribution, consumption or use in the course of a commercial activity, whether in return for payment or free of charge.

 

Before making a product available on the market, the distributor must verify that:

• The product bears the CE marking as required in Article 17

• It is accompanied by the following documents: EU Declaration of Conformity, instructions and safety information, the owner’s manual in the appropriate language for the craft and the engines if installed

• It meets the product identification and traceability requirements, the manufacturer’s identification or the importer’s identification if applicable Where the distributor has reason to believe that a product is not in conformity, he must not make the product available on the market until it has been brought into conformity. Where the product presents a risk, the distributor must inform the manufacturer or the importer as well as the relevant market surveillance authorities

Edited December 1, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Tacet]

17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

No confusion here.

There have been examples of brokers refusing to take self fitouts without RCD documentation onto their books.

 

I think it is going back to the changes in 2017 where : 

 

A product is made available on the market when supplied for distribution, consumption or use in the course of a commercial activity, whether in return for payment or free of charge.

 

Before making a product available on the market, the distributor must verify that:

• The product bears the CE marking as required in Article 17

• It is accompanied by the following documents: EU Declaration of Conformity, instructions and safety information, the owner’s manual in the appropriate language for the craft and the engines if installed

• It meets the product identification and traceability requirements, the manufacturer’s identification or the importer’s identification if applicable Where the distributor has reason to believe that a product is not in conformity, he must not make the product available on the market until it has been brought into conformity. Where the product presents a risk, the distributor must inform the manufacturer or the importer as well as the relevant market surveillance authorities

Are you saying that since 2017 any vessel now needs to comply fully with the design and construction requirements before it placed on the market?  Even if it was built years and years ago?

 

The five year rule looks to be alive and well to me.  And it doesn't just relate to self fit-outs; the regs say "built for own use" and not self-built or DIY fit out.

[David Mack]

5 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Are you saying that since 2017 any vessel now needs to comply fully with the design and construction requirements before it placed on the market?  Even if it was built years and years ago?

The regulations have a commencement date, so for pre RCD/RCR craft there are no regulations to comply with.

33 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There have been examples of brokers refusing to take self fitouts without RCD documentation onto their books.

My reading of the RCR is that watercraft built for own use, sold 5 or more years after being put into service, are not required to comply with the design and construction essential requirements or the noise requirements of the RCR, but they are required to comply with the emissions requirements (by fitting a certified compliant engine). A PCR is not required after the 5 years is up.

The Distributor obligations are a bit confused, because as Alan points out they are required to ensure a craft they are selling in the course of business is compliant, yet the craft in question has no requirement to comply. So my guess is that the BMF and their members are playing it safe by choosing not to sell non certified compliant craft, even though legally they (probably) could.

A private owner, who is not selling in the course of business, is not subject to the same obligations, so can legally sell the boat without any RCR paperwork or PCA.

[Martin Nicholas]

Where does the date of 1998 come from then?

I've found the RCDs from 1994, 2003 & 2013.

I'm asking because my boat was built in 1998 and I recall one of my previous BSC inspectors stating I didn't need a HIN as I'd beaten the deadline.

Ta.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Martin Nicholas said:

Where does the date of 1998 come from then?

I've found the RCDs from 1994, 2003 & 2013.

I'm asking because my boat was built in 1998 and I recall one of my previous BSC inspectors stating I didn't need a HIN as I'd beaten the deadline.

Ta.

 

June 1998 was the date it became law in the UK.

1 hour ago, Tacet said:

The five year rule looks to be alive and well to me.  And it doesn't just relate to self fit-outs; the regs say "built for own use" and not self-built or DIY fit out.

 

If you are building the 'boat for your own use', how can it be anything else but DIY ?

If someone else is building it for you then it is not for their own use.

[Momac]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

No confusion here.

There have been examples of brokers refusing to take self fitouts without RCD documentation onto their books.

 

I think it is going back to the changes in 2017 where : 

 

A product is made available on the market when supplied for distribution, consumption or use in the course of a commercial activity, whether in return for payment or free of charge.

 

Before making a product available on the market, the distributor must verify that:

• The product bears the CE marking as required in Article 17

• It is accompanied by the following documents: EU Declaration of Conformity, instructions and safety information, the owner’s manual in the appropriate language for the craft and the engines if installed

• It meets the product identification and traceability requirements, the manufacturer’s identification or the importer’s identification if applicable Where the distributor has reason to believe that a product is not in conformity, he must not make the product available on the market until it has been brought into conformity. Where the product presents a risk, the distributor must inform the manufacturer or the importer as well as the relevant market surveillance authorities

 

 

This is all about import of goods. A 'distributor' is a person or company that distributes imported goods 

The above is not related to the sale of UK boats that are to be sold and remain in the UK.

However a broker should see that the RCD paperwork is in place where it is required 

In the OP's case the boat is exempt because he kept it 5 years after the self build .

 

[Alan de Enfield]

47 minutes ago, MartynG said:

This is all about import of goods. A 'distributor' is a person or company that distributes imported goods 

 

 

 

You do type some crap.

 

However, if you read the Governments document entitled :

 

Recreational Craft Regulations 2017 As they apply to craft being supplied in or into Great Britain from 1 January 2021

 

You will note that on page 9 it states :

 

A distributor is any person, other than the manufacturer or importer, who makes a product available on the GB market. The obligations of distributors include:

1. Before making available products on the GB market a distributor must take due care to ensure that they are in conformity with Part 2 of the Regulations, meaning that they comply with the essential requirements and that each economic operator has complied with their obligations in relation to them. If a distributor believes that a product is not in conformity with the essential requirements, the distributor must not make that product available on the GB market.

2. The distributor must also verify that the products bear the UKCA marking** (or until 31 December 2022 it is affixed to a label or the accompanying documentation); are accompanied by the required documents, the instructions and safety information; and that the manufacturer and importer have complied with their labelling and identification requirements.

3. The distributor must ensure that while products are under their responsibility, their storage and transport conditions do not jeopardise their conformity with the essential health and safety requirements.

4. The distributor must take action where they have reason to believe that the products that they have made available on the GB market are not in conformity with the Regulations or which present a risk to consumers. They must inform the market surveillance authority and they must not make them available on the GB market until they meet the requirements of the Regulations.

5. The distributor must also cooperate with and provide information to enforcing authorities following any requests.

 

** Until 31 December 2021, products conforming to EU rules, including the CE marking, may be placed on the market of Great Britain.

 

 

 

56 minutes ago, MartynG said:

In the OP's case the boat is exempt because he kept it 5 years after the self build .

 

In your opinion !

 

There was a question asked of the EU comission (by the RYA, on behalf of a member)
 

Question:

What happens when the owner finishes fitting out the narrow boat but does not intend placing it on the market for 5 years: “does the completed boat need to comply with the RCD or just to the stage of hand over from boat builder to owner”?

 

The answer from the EU Commission was :

 

The boat is exempted, as long as it is not placed on the market. If the owner ever decides to place it on the market, then the completed boat needs to comply with the RCD

 

There are not many ways that you can iterpret that.

[ditchcrawler]

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

No confusion here.

There have been examples of brokers refusing to take self fitouts without RCD documentation onto their books.

 

I think it is going back to the changes in 2017 where : 

 

A product is made available on the market when supplied for distribution, consumption or use in the course of a commercial activity, whether in return for payment or free of charge.

 

Before making a product available on the market, the distributor must verify that:

• The product bears the CE marking as required in Article 17

• It is accompanied by the following documents: EU Declaration of Conformity, instructions and safety information, the owner’s manual in the appropriate language for the craft and the engines if installed

• It meets the product identification and traceability requirements, the manufacturer’s identification or the importer’s identification if applicable Where the distributor has reason to believe that a product is not in conformity, he must not make the product available on the market until it has been brought into conformity. Where the product presents a risk, the distributor must inform the manufacturer or the importer as well as the relevant market surveillance authorities

But my hull was put on the market 1990 something when I bought it

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

But my hull was put on the market 1990 something when I bought it

 

If that predates 1998 (which 1990 'something' may well do) then any reference to the RCD / RCR is eroneous.

[Momac]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You do type some crap.

There is no need to resort to insults/ foul language . It doesn't do you any credit.

 

 

 

If a craft built for own use is not placed on the market inside 5 years it is excluded from the RCR requirements . Please see the reference below.

 

The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017 (legislation.gov.uk)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[matty40s]

11 minutes ago, MartynG said:

There is no need to resort to insults/ foul language . It doesn't do you any credit.

 

 

 

If a craft built for own use is not placed on the market inside 5 years it is excluded from the RCR requirements . Please see the reference below.

 

The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017 (legislation.gov.uk)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We know you want that to be the case, or need it to be the case, but unfortunately for you, this is NOT what the BMF has stated to its member brokerages that the future of boat selling under their umbrella will be. 

[David Mack]

52 minutes ago, MartynG said:

If a craft built for own use is not placed on the market inside 5 years it is excluded from the RCR requirements .

Not true. The extract you posted shows that a craft built for own use and not placed on the market within 5 years is exempt from the design and construction requirements set out in Part A of Schedule 1, but it is not excluded (under this clause) from the other requirements of the regulations.

That said, under Section 43 of the regs anyone putting a craft built for own use on the market within 5 years is required to carry out a post construction assessment, but if the craft is over 5 years old there is no such requirement. So anyone selling such a craft after 5+ years is not required to prove that the boat complies with the applicable requirements. 

So a bit of a nonsense really - you are obliged to meet certain requirements, but you are not obliged to demonstrate that you have done so!

[Momac]

1 hour ago, matty40s said:

We know you want that to be the case, or need it to be the case, but unfortunately for you, this is NOT what the BMF has stated to its member brokerages that the future of boat selling under their umbrella will be. 

Its not unfortunate for me at all as I have all the required documentation for my boat.

30 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

So a bit of a nonsense really - you are obliged to meet certain requirements, but you are not obliged to demonstrate that you have done so!

Thanks for that clarification.

Edited December 1, 2023 by MartynG

[Tacet]

7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

June 1998 was the date it became law in the UK.

 

If you are building the 'boat for your own use', how can it be anything else but DIY ?

If someone else is building it for you then it is not for their own use.

It doesn't say you have to build it, though.  You commission someone to build it for you - and don't buy it off the peg.

 

I accept it is not that clear - but the DIY interpretation leads to questions of whether a mate can help you or a use a specialist for the sprayfoam.

[Midnight]

Blimey! It's all getting a bit complicated. I think when I peg it I'll just have my body laid on the roof and the boat pushed out to sea while you guys fire flaming arrows from the shore. @IanD can have first shot providing there's no blue signs on the beach.

[Alan de Enfield]

33 minutes ago, Tacet said:

It doesn't say you have to build it, though.  You commission someone to build it for you - and don't buy it off the peg.

 

I accept it is not that clear - but the DIY interpretation leads to questions of whether a mate can help you or a use a specialist for the sprayfoam.

 

That is all clearly explained within the definitions. You can employ specialists but the build must be controlled and primarily done by the owner / future user. The  builder ('you' ) is the one responsible for the RCD / RCR compliance and 'sign offs'.

 

RCD "definitions"

 

"watercraft built for own use’ means a watercraft predominantly built by its future user for his own use;

 

 

BMF guidance to boat builders and their interpretation of the rules :

 

Home built: where the boat has been substantially built by the owner for their own use and is not sold for a period of 5 years.  However the boat owner may employ specialist services for elements of the build and still be considered a self build. However, you may find it challenging to sell the boat after 5 years without the relevant RCD documentation, builders plate and CE marking.

[LadyG]

So, could a person who wants to sell their boat claim an HIN, which has been foamed over?

Asking for a friend.

I have some paperwork with my boat but somehow I got the impression the builder or maybe the fitter decided to backdate the date of commission for the boat, maybe.

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by LadyG

[MtB]

Ah you bought a hookey boat then eh?

 

Alan will be dobbing you in to InterPol as I type....

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

32 minutes ago, LadyG said:

So, could a person who wants to sell their boat claim an HIN, which has been foamed over?

Asking for a friend.

I have some paperwork with my boat but somehow I got the impression the builder or maybe the fitter decided to backdate the date of commission for the boat, maybe.

 

And a broker sold you this boat without the proper paperwork

[MtB]

30 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

And a broker sold you this boat without the proper paperwork

 

 

Which supposedly cannot happen!

[Peanut]

The HIN that has been foamed over, presumably punched or welded into the hull, is probably the correct HIN for the Hull.  I wouldn't think there would be anything wrong in claiming it.  Of course, the date in the HIN might not match the paperwork you have. AdE recently posted on the structure of a HIN.

I think that, as you bought the boat innocently through a broker, you get to keep it, even if it turns out to have a dark history. Someone will be along to correct me.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Peanut said:

The HIN that has been foamed over, presumably punched or welded into the hull, is probably the correct HIN for the Hull.  I wouldn't think there would be anything wrong in claiming it.  Of course, the date in the HIN might not match the paperwork you have. AdE recently posted on the structure of a HIN.

I think that, as you bought the boat innocently through a broker, you get to keep it, even if it turns out to have a dark history. Someone will be along to correct me.

 

 

 

[Peanut]

Thank-you.