Overwintering, heating control.

[SnippetySnip]

48 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

I ran the rads at maximum and let the stat take care of it all.

As for the rest of it it's something I built by combining available bits.

The main control was one of these

https://gsm-activate.co.uk/product/gsm-auto-dialler/

The relay output was connected to my Eberspacher so it could be remotely switched.

The inputs were connected to:

1 a Smartgauge set to alarm when SOC dropped below 80%

2 a relay connected to the main power input that switched if the power went off

3 a 12v thermostat

4 the relay in the Victron Combi

4 really duplicated 2 .

It could be used for all sorts of inputs.

 

Thanks for the write up, it sounds like a really smart system. Food for thought!

[Phlea]

I use one of these to very good effect, temp can be remotely monitored and alerted, as can power availability, and the heater can be switched manually or automatically. You do need a mobile signal within the boat, I hang mine in a window on an extension lead to be sure. 

 

https://www.tekview-solutions.com/powertxt.php

[SnippetySnip]

19 hours ago, Phlea said:

I use one of these to very good effect, temp can be remotely monitored and alerted, as can power availability, and the heater can be switched manually or automatically. You do need a mobile signal within the boat, I hang mine in a window on an extension lead to be sure. 

 

https://www.tekview-solutions.com/powertxt.php

Cool piece of kit! Thanks for the link.

[David Mack]

On 18/11/2023 at 17:35, Ken X said:

On a similar vein, we often go boating during the winter and noted our house insurance has a minimum house temperature requirement of 15 degrees whilst we are away. 

Blimey! We sometimes struggle to maintain a temperature of 15 degrees in the house while we are at home.

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

Blimey! We sometimes struggle to maintain a temperature of 15 degrees in the house while we are at home.

Get some lubbly jubbly oil and a boiler. Mine is on as I type. Even when it was minus 12 last winter we could achieve over 20 even in this old stone house. Good old tech 😜

[David Mack]

19 hours ago, Phlea said:

I use one of these to very good effect, temp can be remotely monitored and alerted, as can power availability, and the heater can be switched manually or automatically. You do need a mobile signal within the boat, I hang mine in a window on an extension lead to be sure. 

 

https://www.tekview-solutions.com/powertxt.php

That looks to need a mains power supply, so presumably can't alert you if the shoreline supply fails.

[Phlea]

53 minutes ago, David Mack said:

That looks to need a mains power supply, so presumably can't alert you if the shoreline supply fails.

It does as it contains a capacitor which holds enough charge to text you when the mains fails. Will also then text you when it comes back on again. 

[wakey_wake]

On 16/11/2023 at 19:55, Tony Brooks said:

[...] it has been reported that at least one insurer said using a non-marine approved heater would invalidate the insurance.

[...]

No, find an insurer who does not impose such conditions.

Ugh. I'm hearing echoes of

(generally, don't ask your insurer "will this be OK?")

 

I told mine I "spend a lot of time on my boat" or similar, and they tell me to keep the cabin above 10°C or similar.

Then I don't, and I'm hoping that if there is a problem it will not be so serious that I have to claim - basically I'll be on my own.

 

I presume the practicalities would be that if there was any damage I did have to claim for, they would want proof of how I had maintained the temperature?

So we're into "don't have an accident" territory again.

 

 

On 17/11/2023 at 14:17, cuthound said:

I use [...] plus a Meaco DD8L dehumidifier set to come on when the relative humidity increases above 50%. I block the mushroom vents with sponges and cover the low level vents with cardboard to stop the dehumidifier from drying out the world.

I had to learn this about dehumidifiers - the benefits of the three types.

1. The small low power ones are based on peltier devices. I haven't got one but suspect they're too inefficient and low-power to be useful on a narrowboat.
2. Compressor types. They're the most efficient, but in low temperatures they'll keep doing the icing up / defrost cycle, which is noisy and greatly reduces their effectiveness. Expect them to sound like and last as long as a 'fridge.
3. Absorber (desiccant) wheel types. They put out more heat and cost more to run, but will dry to a lower % humidity at lower temperatures.

What made this very clear for me was a minor leak recently. The compressor dehum has a % display and has difficulty getting below 50% in autumn. My absorber type doesn't have % display, but running it nearby rapidly dropped the % display on the compressor dramatically. (Not a fair test, but interesting)

 

If you want to see inside any of them, look on Youtube for a teardown.

 

Folks say the desiccant type don't last well with heavy use? I don't know yet. My cheapie refuses to stay on for more than 24h, and wouldn't come on if put on a thermostat - have to touch the top to wake it.

 

 

On preventing freezing water pipes when I'm away long enough, I use an air pump -

but the effectiveness of this at reaching the "corners" has not been tested by a decade of weather.

...and (@Tigerrr in particular as OP)  I forgot to write more about my trace heating. I'll go over there for that.

 

 

Some of the devices posted look handy, thanks all. But this,

21 hours ago, Phlea said:

I use one of these to very good effect, temp can be remotely monitored and alerted, as can power availability, and the heater can be switched manually or automatically. You do need a mobile signal within the boat, I hang mine in a window on an extension lead to be sure. 

 

https://www.tekview-solutions.com/powertxt.php

seems inefficient to me? If you needed two, or if you were running something else that can phone you, then you need another mobile subscription - at a minimum of £5/month.

Is that how it goes? Do you manage with only the one?

I would think it's better to funnel all the data to your boat wifi (which needs a mobile sub) and then just have the one?

 

What keeps me awake on the cold nights when I'm away from the boat is the steel raw water cooling inlet for the generator. Maybe that's a separate thread - I don't see one so I'll go post.

[Tony Brooks]

23 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

Ugh. I'm hearing echoes of

(generally, don't ask your insurer "will this be OK?")

 

 

You may be hearing echoes, but you miss the point. I never suggested that anyone should ask their insurer, I suggested that they read their policy. While you may feel it OK to imply that they do not need to as long as they don't ask their insurer, I think that is grossly irresponsible. Another member issued the warning and named the insurance company a number of years ago, and if that clause in the POLICY exists, then if there was an accident with non-approved heaters in use the policy would be voided and cover rescinded.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Tony Brooks

[wakey_wake]

15 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

You may be hearing echoes, but you miss the point. I never suggested that anyone should ask their insurer, I suggested that they read their policy. While you may feel it OK to imply that they do not need to as long as they don't ask their insurer, I think that is grossly irresponsible. Another member issued the warning and named the insurance company a number of years ago, and if that clause in the POLICY exists, then if there was an accident with non-approved heaters in use the policy would be voided and cover rescinded.

I agree that people should read the policy OR know they're running a risk of a nasty surprise - didn't think I needed to state that out loud but here we are. 😁

 

I'm still curious about marine-approved heaters and I'll admit it is months since I read my insurance policy. But I don't think it (that specific clause) applies directly to me.

Edited November 22, 2023 by wakey_wake
it -> specific clause

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

I'm still curious about marine-approved heaters and I'll admit it is months since I read my insurance policy. But I don't think it (that specific clause) applies directly to me.

 

I strongly suspect they are not easy to find and probably expensive, that is why tubular and panel heaters are often used. Personally, I can't see any issue with properly secured eaters like this, but I can see major problems with fan and radiant electric heaters if left unattended on the boat. That may be why the insurer inserted that clause.

 

If you look back at the posts, I think all but mine were approving using such heaters, I just warned it MIGHT not be such a good idea.

[Mike Tee]

3 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Get some lubbly jubbly oil and a boiler. Mine is on as I type. Even when it was minus 12 last winter we could achieve over 20 even in this old stone house. Good old tech 😜

But I'm sure somebody on this forum, who shall remain nameless, said oil fired heating was the work of the devil......😁

On 18/11/2023 at 13:54, GUMPY said:

I deliberately locked my phone number out of the controller and deleted the number from my phone when I sold the boat. Decided there could have been to much fun to be had randomly turning their heating on😱

Or even more fun turning it off

[mrsmelly]

9 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

But I'm sure somebody on this forum, who shall remain nameless, said oil fired heating was the work of the devil......😁

Or even more fun turning it off

Lol, guilty as charged. However, the mains style worcester Bosch stuff for houses aint the garbage sold for boat use 

[wakey_wake]

47 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I strongly suspect they are not easy to find and probably expensive, that is why tubular and panel heaters are often used. Personally, I can't see any issue with properly secured eaters like this, but I can see major problems with fan and radiant electric heaters if left unattended on the boat. That may be why the insurer inserted that clause.

 

If you look back at the posts, I think all but mine were approving using such heaters, I just warned it MIGHT not be such a good idea.

Thanks - so I did have misconceptions.

 

Having never seen a "marine-approved heater" or an advert for one, I assumed that the insurance company is being completely unrealistic in specifying them. That's wrong because they do exist (but I still haven't seen one, and won't spend a lot of effort looking); and if an insurance company was completely unrealistic then the contract / that aspect of it would become unenforceable.

 

Then it never occurred to me that anyone would be daft enough to leave unsecured radiant heaters on a boat...  but I guess it has happened and it would eventually cause a fire, and that's why the insurance company has a requirement. Many will auto-shutoff on tipping over, but that's not going to save you with a radiant.

 

Such a shame they could not have been more gentle and realistic about that, e.g. "using a heater which can operate safely even when overturned" or some such. There's a big difference between guiding people to use safe kit so the insurance doesn't need to pay out, and constricting the allowable kit so the insurance can duck out of paying. 😞

 

[GUMPY]

59 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

Or even more fun turning it off

Only if they had turned it on via SMS as the on board Eber controller overrides the SMS one.

 

[wakey_wake]

3 hours ago, wakey_wake said:

Some of the devices posted look handy, thanks all. But this, [ powertxt ]

seems inefficient to me? If you needed two, or if you were running something else that can phone you, then you need another mobile subscription - at a minimum of £5/month.

Is that how it goes? Do you manage with only the one?

I would think it's better to funnel all the data to your boat wifi (which needs a mobile sub) and then just have the one?

Sorry, had not read their page and the cost can be lower -

 

Quote

Running costs are very low and we have negotiated special rates for SMS only SIMs, currently approx. £1.25 pm (inc 10 SMS pm). As Powertxt uses 2G SMS’s if you chose to use a PAYG SIM the unit does not work with digital only networks e.g. Three.

and they do address the competition of IP (Internet protocol) systems. https://www.tekview-solutions.com/powertxt.php#powertxt-traditional-ip-power-control

 

It's nice that the market is big enough to be able to supply these tools for the price.

 

 

3 hours ago, wakey_wake said:

I forgot to write more about my trace heating. I'll go over there for that.

Done that, hope it's useful for someone

 

 

3 hours ago, wakey_wake said:

What made this very clear for me was a minor leak recently.

By this I mean: rain leaking into the saloon and me running the dehumidifiers to dry the place out after stopping the leak.

A leaking compressor dehumidifier would be bad news.

[Mike Tee]

5 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Lol, guilty as charged. However, the mains style worcester Bosch stuff for houses aint the garbage sold for boat use 

I know, but just couldn't resist!

[SnippetySnip]

On 17/11/2023 at 14:17, cuthound said:

I use two 750 watt oil filled radiators on a thermostatic plug set to 5 degrees C  (one near the water pumps and one near the calorifier) plus a Meaco DD8L dehumidifier set to come on when the relative humidity increases above 50%. I block the mushroom vents with sponges and cover the low level vents with cardboard to stop the dehumidifier from drying out the world.

 

 

I've just been given one of these Meaco DD8L dehumidifiers. Do you just leave yours running while you're away? Do you find the tank is big enough? Or do you use a hose to drain? I'm a bit nervous about running it 24/7 (but not for any good reason). Tips welcomed!

 

I stay on my boat part time, so I can check up on this once a week, and it wouldn't be very handy to fully drain the water system every week etc.

[cuthound]

3 hours ago, SnippetySnip said:

 

I've just been given one of these Meaco DD8L dehumidifiers. Do you just leave yours running while you're away? Do you find the tank is big enough? Or do you use a hose to drain? I'm a bit nervous about running it 24/7 (but not for any good reason). Tips welcomed!

 

I stay on my boat part time, so I can check up on this once a week, and it wouldn't be very handy to fully drain the water system every week etc.

 

Yes, I put it on late Autumn when overnight temperatures are likely to fall to 5 degrees C or less and leave it on until the Spring temperatures have eliminated this risk.

 

I don't use the tank. I put the dehumidifier on the draining board and run the hose into the sink.

 

I've done this every winter since 2014 and not had any issues with the dehumidifier. However I do check on it (and the electric radiators) regularly because my boat is moored at the end of my garden.

[SnippetySnip]

2 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Yes, I put it on late Autumn when overnight temperatures are likely to fall to 5 degrees C or less and leave it on until the Spring temperatures have eliminated this risk.

 

I don't use the tank. I put the dehumidifier on the draining board and run the hose into the sink.

 

I've done this every winter since 2014 and not had any issues with the dehumidifier. However I do check on it (and the electric radiators) regularly because my boat is moored at the end of my garden.

Great information, thank you. I'll run the hose to the sink.

[Momac]

On 24/11/2023 at 09:44, SnippetySnip said:

 

I've just been given one of these Meaco DD8L dehumidifiers. Do you just leave yours running while you're away? Do you find the tank is big enough? Or do you use a hose to drain? I'm a bit nervous about running it 24/7 (but not for any good reason). Tips welcomed!

 

I stay on my boat part time, so I can check up on this once a week, and it wouldn't be very handy to fully drain the water system every week etc.

I use the built in water tank on my DD8L.

The lowest fan setting (one fan) and least demanding humidity setting (one drop) does the job in my case.

On those settings this week the tank was full by late on Thursday after starting from an empty tank on Sunday. I know this as I can monitor the energy used from home and the dehumidifier stops when the tank is full. Using about 60p in energy per day.  

All vents on the boat taped up results in less energy use and therefore  longer to fill the tank. 

That's all fine with me as the result is an acceptably dry boat but may not suit you if you want to stay on the boat and don't want to tape up the vents.

The dehumidifier probably will not do so  much work in the next week - too cold so the air is naturally dryer.

 

Using the dehumidifier alone will not protect the domestic water system from frost.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by MartynG

[MtB]

On 22/11/2023 at 11:52, wakey_wake said:

What keeps me awake on the cold nights when I'm away from the boat is the steel raw water cooling inlet for the generator. Maybe that's a separate thread - I don't see one so I'll go post.

 

 

What used to keep ME awake at night when my boat was in a marina was the experience that on the first really cold night, every boat's electric frost protection tended to kick in which would overload and trip out the whole pontoon bollard supply. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by MtB
Clarify.

[Momac]

7 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

What used to keep ME awake at night when my boat was in a marina was the experience that on the first really cold night, every boat's electric frost protection tended to kick in which would overload and trip out the whole pontoon bollard supply. 

 

I have only had that happen one occasion and it was eventually traced  to a faulty appliance on one boat . 

 

[Peugeot 106]

18 hours ago, SnippetySnip said:

Great information, thank you. I'll run the hose to the sink.

Beware the sink drain freezing 

[ditchcrawler]

11 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I have only had that happen one occasion and it was eventually traced  to a faulty appliance on one boat . 

 

By which time all those boats that left their inverters on have flat batteries trying to power their heaters