Electric hook ups and recharging electric boats

[magpie patrick]

This is a combination of two entirely separate things I've read this morning.

 

1 - a review of a new Wilderness Beaver 23 with electric propulsion (and it looks very good, when I win the pools I may buy one  ) 

 

https://waterwaysworld.com/magazine/onsalenow?fbclid=IwAR0EpvWt-ANhjwrwIqMjlhbB1MRRKOfBKCZowPb7C1cxWYLIyaWl8BU7nno

 

2 - a statement in a document I've just read "this should include provision of electric charging points for electric boats, which can also be used as hook up by all boaters"

 

Is the second statement true? Are the connections compatible and even if they are is the current draw for each compatible? I would have thought charging electric boats was slow but steady whereas a hook up might have to cope with the surge of a microwave and an electric kettle (and more) 

 

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

This is a combination of two entirely separate things I've read this morning.

 

1 - a review of a new Wilderness Beaver 23 with electric propulsion (and it looks very good, when I win the pools I may buy one  ) 

 

https://waterwaysworld.com/magazine/onsalenow?fbclid=IwAR0EpvWt-ANhjwrwIqMjlhbB1MRRKOfBKCZowPb7C1cxWYLIyaWl8BU7nno

 

2 - a statement in a document I've just read "this should include provision of electric charging points for electric boats, which can also be used as hook up by all boaters"

 

Is the second statement true? Are the connections compatible and even if they are is the current draw for each compatible? I would have thought charging electric boats was slow but steady whereas a hook up might have to cope with the surge of a microwave and an electric kettle (and more) 

 

A standard hookup point is 16A (3.7kW), there are a few 30A ones (7kW) but not many. The smaller ones can cope with most plug-in appliances on a normal boat and can easily charge an electric boat overnight, but if you plug several high-power appliances in at once they'll trip. The bigger ones don't have this problem.

[David Mack]

But can a location provided with a number of standard hookup points actually provide 16A simultaneously to every socket outlet? Not an issue at present when not everyone is going to be using their kettle and microwave at the same time. But what about a future world when several electric boats may be recharging overnight?

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, David Mack said:

But can a location provided with a number of standard hookup points actually provide 16A simultaneously to every socket outlet? Not an issue at present when not everyone is going to be using their kettle and microwave at the same time. But what about a future world when several electric boats may be recharging overnight?

Then this needs to be taken into account when sizing both the incoming mains supply and the distribution cabling. Ones sized for 16A peak but lower average currents won't be usable if electric boats plug into every outlet.

[Ex Brummie]

Given that the grid is short of capacity for charging points for motorway service stations, I dread to think of the possibility of installing points in canal locations which are often in isolated places.

[magnetman]

I reckon the answer to this is solar farms on canalside land and containers full of banks of Really Good Batteries. You tie up beside it and upload charge to your own batteries.

 

Obviously there would be an app to check the capacity available at a given time.

 

Seems better than installing grid infrastructure. 

 

A scary man with a poleaxe to police the site. Maybe one could offer a mooring to a suitable candidate. 

 

I'm in advanced discussions in my head with the Environment Agency. 

 

 

 

 

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Ex Brummie said:

Given that the grid is short of capacity for charging points for motorway service stations, I dread to think of the possibility of installing points in canal locations which are often in isolated places.

Given that the total load of electric boats would be maybe 10000x smaller than EVs or domestic heat pumps, the grid capacity as such is hardly an issue. Charging points would presumably be installed in locations where there is a nearby mains supply, so in towns, cities, villages, where there are canalside pubs and houses, where local power lines cross the canal -- not in the middle of nowhere, in the same way as there are no water points where there's no mains water.

 

However there's no credible plan from CART (or the government...) about how to build and pay for such a charging network, which is the real problem... 😞

[magnetman]

Go Juice will be in charge on canals for a long long time.

 

 

 

If it were not red it might be less appealing but its so pretty and so effective ! 

[Alan de Enfield]

30 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I reckon the answer to this is solar farms on canalside land and containers full of banks of Really Good Batteries. You tie up beside it and upload charge the batteries to your own boat..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then you wouldn't need to recharge your batteries - just help yourself from the supply kindly left for your use.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[magnetman]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Then you wouldn't need to recharge your batteries - just help yourself from the supply kindly left for your use.

Nio the Chinese car company already do battery swap stations.

 

This is where the scary hirsute boater policing the area would help. 

 

 

With a pole axe. 

[ditchcrawler]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Then you wouldn't need to recharge your batteries - just help yourself from the supply kindly left for your use.

Didn't that happen on some Nene Locks

[magnetman]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Didn't that happen on some Nene Locks

I remember that. Ditchford lock I think it was or near there. 

Electric control added with solar panels on top of the guillotine gate structure and batteries in a green GRP telecoms box beside the lock. 

Box broken open, batteries nicked and most of the solar panels taken. 

 

 

 

It was about 20 yars ago when we went down there and on the day we were passing through I recall the cut wires in the green box by the lock. 

 

 

[Crewcut]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

I reckon the answer to this is solar farms on canalside land and containers full of banks of Really Good Batteries. You tie up beside it and upload charge to your own batteries.

 

Obviously there would be an app to check the capacity available at a given time.

 

Seems better than installing grid infrastructure. 

 

A scary man with a poleaxe to police the site. Maybe one could offer a mooring to a suitable candidate. 

 

I'm in advanced discussions in my head with the Environment Agency. 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm presently considering upgrading my batteries, are these new RGBs better than lithium?

[blackrose]

I'm still struggling to see the point of electric boats unless they're fair weather only, non-liveaboard. For everyone else in winter the emissions generated by the burning of fossil fuels in a stove or diesel heater make the rest of it a bit pointless. I guess it makes some people feel better, like they're making a difference. Perhaps I'm being cynical as I don't think they really are.

[IanD]

58 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I'm still struggling to see the point of electric boats unless they're fair weather only, non-liveaboard. For everyone else in winter the emissions generated by the burning of fossil fuels in a stove or diesel heater make the rest of it a bit pointless. I guess it makes some people feel better, like they're making a difference. Perhaps I'm being cynical as I don't think they really are.

 

The point of electric -- sorry, series hybrid -- boats today is not really emissions or cost savings, these are small and as you correctly point out don't solve the heating problem. To solve all this needs charging points and boats with solar and heat-pumps, for the same reasons as EVs and solar and heat-pump CH on land, and there's no serious plan for the charging points and such boats are *very* expensive... 😞

 

The point today is to be able to cruise along without noise and diesel fumes -- at least, most of the time until you have to run a (quiet, efficient) generator... 😉

 

And having been out (briefly so far...) on mine, I can assure you that this is a completely different -- and spooky! -- boating experience. But if you don't get the point or want one, nobody's forcing you to get one... 🙂

Edited October 3, 2023 by IanD

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I'm still struggling to see the point of electric boats unless they're fair weather only, non-liveaboard. For everyone else in winter the emissions generated by the burning of fossil fuels in a stove or diesel heater make the rest of it a bit pointless. I guess it makes some people feel better, like they're making a difference. Perhaps I'm being cynical as I don't think they really are.

 

I have only ever been on an electric boat once, a trip boat in France and the experience of being moved along in virtual silence whilst listening to the wildlife was a very pleasant experience. It didn't have a a generator on board as it plugged in overnight and between trips so you didn't even have the noise of that kicking in if the batteries got low.

 

Obviously on our canals and rivers key to the experiences is having a well cocooned well silenced genny.

 

Some people might think they are 'saving the planet' by having an electric boat the reality is they aren't.

[magnetman]

I'd be happy to burn a tonne of coal per hour if the boat was completely silent. 

1 hour ago, Crewcut said:

 

I'm presently considering upgrading my batteries, are these new RGBs better than lithium?

Lithium Titanate.

I would be wary of taking these lads word for it though 

 

https://www.damen.com/vessels/tugs/asd-tugs#asd-tug-2312

Article https://www.rivieramm.com/news-content-hub/news-content-hub/damen-embraces-sustainability-with-battery-powered-tugs-77654

 

"

Jean-Pierre Stevens says the first RSD-E 2513 will have 80 tonnes of bollard pull, the first ASD-E 1810 design will have 40 tonnes and ASD-E 2111 tug, 60 tonnes of bollard pull. Batteries on these tugs will have DNV- and Bureau Veritas-classed Toshiba lithium-titanium oxide batteries that can be easily charged and last the life of the tug.

“With Sparky, we can do 36,500 cycles. This is 33 years based on three cycles per day of recharging and Damen will give 15 years with a guarantee of 18,250 cycles,” says Mr Stevens"

 

 

[IanD]

15 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I'd be happy to burn a tonne of coal per hour if the boat was completely silent. 

Lithium Titanate.

I would be wary of taking these lads word for it though 

 

https://www.damen.com/vessels/tugs/asd-tugs#asd-tug-2312

Article https://www.rivieramm.com/news-content-hub/news-content-hub/damen-embraces-sustainability-with-battery-powered-tugs-77654

 

"

Jean-Pierre Stevens says the first RSD-E 2513 will have 80 tonnes of bollard pull, the first ASD-E 1810 design will have 40 tonnes and ASD-E 2111 tug, 60 tonnes of bollard pull. Batteries on these tugs will have DNV- and Bureau Veritas-classed Toshiba lithium-titanium oxide batteries that can be easily charged and last the life of the tug.

“With Sparky, we can do 36,500 cycles. This is 33 years based on three cycles per day of recharging and Damen will give 15 years with a guarantee of 18,250 cycles,” says Mr Stevens"

 

 

So if you have a narrowboat doing 3 full charges per day -- and that's something like 24/7/365 hours fast cruising for 30 years -- then LTO might have some purpose.

 

Meanwhile back in the real non-tug world, the heaviest possible canal CCer is likely to see LFP battery life which exceeds that of the hull before the boat is scrapped -- just like EVs... 😉

Edited October 3, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

8 minutes ago, IanD said:

So if you have a narrowboat doing 3 full charges per day -- and that's something like 24/7/365 hours fast cruising for 30 years -- then LTO might have some purpose.

 

Meanwhile back in the real non-tug world, the heaviest possible canal CCer is likely to see LFP battery life which exceeds that of the hull before the boat is scrapped -- just like EVs... 😉

If you were to read the thread you will find I was referring to charging stations for passing boats.

 

 

[booke23]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

The point today is to be able to cruise along without noise and diesel fumes -- at least, most of the time until you have to run a (quiet, efficient) generator... 😉

 

And having been out (briefly so far...) on mine, I can assure you that this is a completely different -- and spooky! -- boating experience. But if you don't get the point or want one, nobody's forcing you to get one... 🙂

 

47 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

I have only ever been on an electric boat once, a trip boat in France and the experience of being moved along in virtual silence whilst listening to the wildlife was a very pleasant experience. It didn't have a a generator on board as it plugged in overnight and between trips so you didn't even have the noise of that kicking in if the batteries got low.

 

Obviously on our canals and rivers key to the experiences is having a well cocooned well silenced genny.

 

Some people might think they are 'saving the planet' by having an electric boat the reality is they aren't.

 

I recently hired an all electric day boat when on holiday a few weeks ago. It was based on a lake and recharged from shore power every night. At lower throttle settings it was totally silent while still moving at a reasonable pace. The experience was amazingly tranquil and it occurred to me at the time how nice it would be to have this silence on a narrowboat. 

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

 

I recently hired an all electric day boat when on holiday a few weeks ago. It was based on a lake and recharged from shore power every night. At lower throttle settings it was totally silent while still moving at a reasonable pace. The experience was amazingly tranquil and it occurred to me at the time how nice it would be to have this silence on a narrowboat. 

It is 🙂

[1st ade]

30 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

 

I recently hired an all electric day boat when on holiday a few weeks ago. It was based on a lake and recharged from shore power every night. At lower throttle settings it was totally silent while still moving at a reasonable pace. The experience was amazingly tranquil and it occurred to me at the time how nice it would be to have this silence on a narrowboat. 

Electra

 

I've been on it - sneaking up on a Heron (and then cruising past without spooking it) was amazing

[Sailbadthesinner]

Actually a solar powered electric propulsion live aboard continuous cruising boat is viable for at least 6 months of the year.
I know because we have done it for the last 3 years in a grp cruiser. Each winter she is stored ashore and we go home.
Note that this is solar only, without plugging into shore power anywhere. Cooking is also by electric. With a generator and stove 12 months would be possible.
I admit it involves getting used to a simpler lifestyle without all the luxuries and conveniences of home but isn't that what boating is all about?

[magnetman]

Yes. 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

On 03/10/2023 at 16:32, booke23 said:

 

 

I recently hired an all electric day boat when on holiday a few weeks ago. It was based on a lake and recharged from shore power every night. At lower throttle settings it was totally silent while still moving at a reasonable pace. The experience was amazingly tranquil and it occurred to me at the time how nice it would be to have this silence on a narrowboat. 

My Narrowboat is fairly quiet, often just cruising at a speed with all you can hear is the wash. Being single handed I wouldn’t want silent boating as most of the time I have the radio on for company and total silence on the back would make it a lonely place to be. I get my silent boating moored up in the middle of nowhere sitting on the front of the boat and chilling with the dog.