Boat with 12,000 engine running hours

[dan01eb]

Hi, I'm in the process of buying my first narrowboat to live aboard and have viewed a really nice boat. My only concern with the boat is the engine running hours as it's an ex hire boat. The engine is a Beta 35 with almost 12,000 hours, it was serviced a year ago and had new filters and belts but that's the only engine history I can get at the moment. Should this be a concern or is 12,000 hours not to much of a problem if the engine starts and runs well? Thanks

[Alan de Enfield]

Being an ex hire boat it has probably been well maintained.

 

I bought an ex hire boat that had a Lister LPWS4 engine in it with over 10,000 hours clocked.

 

It used absolutely no oil between the 100 hour change period.

It dripped absolutey no oil - the engine bilge was lined with white paper towels.

It started on the button

It ran as sweetly as a nut

It didn't smoke.

 

With diesel engines (remember that Taxis can clock up over 1 million miles) it is a case of regular oil changes and general maintenance that makes the difference between 'dying young' and living to a 'ripe old age'.

 

You can ask your surveyor to do an oil analysis which will show if the engine is internally in good condition - it'll cost a few pounds extra and take a week or so to get the results back from the labs, but could be worth it if you have doubts, BUT, know its the boat you want.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Being an ex hire boat it has probably been well maintained.

 

I bought an ex hire boat that had a Lister LPWS4 engine in it with over 10,000 hours clocked.

 

It used absolutely no oil between the 100 hour change period.

It dripped absolutey no oil - the engine bilge was lined with white paper towels.

It started on the button

It ran as sweetly as a nut

It didn't smoke.

 

With diesel engines (remember that Taxis can clock up over 1 million miles) it is a case of regular oil changes and general maintenance that makes the difference between 'dying young' and living to a 'ripe old age'.

My ex share boat had 11000 hours on it before it exploded! It was down to the valve on the oil pump out being opened! It apparently filled the bilge and then seized up! No hassle to me as a reconditioned engine and gearbox was fitted before I collected it, ran sweet as a nut my whole ownership 

[mrsmelly]

I used to skipper a trip boat and of the three diesel engines the lowest hours was 25,000. All three had never had a major overhaul but meticulous servicing was carried out on a very regular basis. We changed oil and filters religously and had oil tested also on a regular basis. Its probably a Kubota so if looked after will last many more years unless you are unlucky.

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I used to skipper a trip boat and of the three diesel engines the lowest hours was 25,000. All three had never had a major overhaul but meticulous servicing was carried out on a very regular basis. We changed oil and filters religously and had oil tested also on a regular basis. Its probably a Kubota so if looked after will last many more years unless you are unlucky.

Mine was a kubota and the company got unlucky 

[magnetman]

Its a Kubota V1505. Very Good engine. 

 

If it starts and runs fine and does not generate smoke I'd tend to think it was alright. Nice little units they are with the Kubota patented combustion chamber. 

 

Obviously its impossible to know for sure but if it is running nicely and serviced no signs of bad things like burnt paint or anything then its probably fine. 12,000 hours is quite a lot but not shocking .

 

 

[cuthound]

I've seen diggers with the Kubota engine that the Beta is based on with 25,000 on them. First sign of excessive wear is usually fumes being blown out of the dipstick hole because of crankcase pressurisation caused by combustion gases getting past the piston rings. 

 

Our first shareboat with a 1.4 Mitsubishi engine needed a new engine at 8,000 hours, and the second with a Turkish built BMC 1.8 engine was knackered at 13,500 hours.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, dan01eb said:

Hi, I'm in the process of buying my first narrowboat to live aboard and have viewed a really nice boat. My only concern with the boat is the engine running hours as it's an ex hire boat. The engine is a Beta 35 with almost 12,000 hours, it was serviced a year ago and had new filters and belts but that's the only engine history I can get at the moment. Should this be a concern or is 12,000 hours not to much of a problem if the engine starts and runs well? Thanks

I would be more concerned about being serviced a year ago, I wonder how many hours its done in the year.

[magnetman]

I suppose ex hire needs clarifying. 

 

Has it just come out of a hire fleet or did they sell it twenty yars ago...

[dmr]

It is usually stated that a heavy diesel needs a rebuild between 12 and 16,000 hours. A few make it to 20,000.

An engine in a narrowboat has a very hard life due to the low speed light load running and this will increase bore wear. I suppose a hire boat has probably been worked a bit harder than many private boats which might help.

 

Get the engine warm, put it on a fast idle and take the oil filler cap off and have a look at how much smoke/oil mist is coming out.

Doing a like for like engine swap is not a huge task.

[ditchcrawler]

It may not even be the original engine. Friend of mine bought a boat from Black Prince and the engine we only a little over a year old, I doubt they changed the hour counter

[blackrose]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You can ask your surveyor to do an oil analysis which will show if the engine is internally in good condition

 

I think you might be crediting canal boat surveyors with slightly more technical aptitude than their marine counterparts Alan. Some of them might know where to send samples for analysis and how to interpret the results, but I'm sure most would just shrug their shoulders if you asked them for such a service. You have to remember you're talking about the "hit it wiv hammer" school of analysis.

Edited October 2, 2023 by blackrose

[MtB]

If the boat has made you fall in love with it, just buy it and deal with any engine problems if and when they crop up. You can't survey your way out of future maintenance and repairs! 

 

Changing an engine like-for-like is not that big a deal. If the cost of a new engine at some indeterminate point in the future bothers you, then I suggest boating is not for you. Big expenses crop up occasionally and randomly, in my experience. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony1]

18 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I would be more concerned about being serviced a year ago, I wonder how many hours its done in the year.

 

In case you missed it or skimmed it, do have a think about Brian's reply above. 

I would ask what the boat has been doing for the last 12 months, but without mentioning why you're asking. 

This admittedly is quite unlikely, but if it has been out on hire for a year without a service, that might indicate some degree of neglect.

It seems much more likely that its just been sat idle for months or had low usage, in which case a year between services might make more sense. E.g. it may have been in private hands for the last year or two, and perhaps done low engine hours since its hire career.

In the engine service record its possible you may see a list of service stamps by the hire boat company over say 15 years, and there might be a hand written entry by a private owner after that.

Either way you will see the engine hours recorded at the last service a year ago, and you can compare that with the current engine hours. 

If it's gone way over its service interval you may be able to negotiate a bit of a price reduction, or decide to walk away if there are other things you don't like the look of when you start and run it 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

47 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

In the engine service record its possible you may see a list of service stamps by the hire boat company

 

When I bought my 'ex-hire' boat t had been in private hands for a couple of years.

With the boat came a 3" thick box-file jam packed with the records from the hire company, with everything that had ever been done to it, right down to changing a jubille clip.

As their 'engineering' division was a separate entity to their hire division there was a priced invoice for every part and every man-hour of labour.

 

The private owner had continued to have the boat maintained by the same engineering division of the hire company and the trail of paperwork continued.

He actually paid them £11,000 to remove the pump-out tank, install a cassestte, build a bike cupboard and change the bed to a cross bed.

 

For me, this sort of paperwork trail adds value.

[dan01eb]

The current owner purchased the boat in 2017 so I think she was a hire boat until 2016/2017. There's a good survey available from 2017 with just an advisory saying blacking needs to be done. The current owner has refitted the interior, painted the outside very nicely, installed new security/privacy windows and fitted new pram and cratch covers so she looks almost like a brand new boat. However she is 23 years old and has nearly 12000 hours on the engine so maybe a bit on the expensive side? At the moment I've decided to be patient and view some more boats before making any decisions as originally I did want 50 to 55 ft. This is the boat..

 

https://www.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/south-west-durham-45-cruiser-stern-for-sale/745488

Edited October 3, 2023 by dan01eb

[Tracy D'arth]

Its an ex Canaltime!

Not a nice boat in my view and hugely overpriced.  They always sounded fussy with the underrated engine and small prop.

[Alan de Enfield]

Horrid boats.

Hate the design and particularly the front end that you can only access from outside the boat.

[magnetman]

I'm also not a fan, putting it mildly. I like a front well deck or a tug deck on a narrow boat with front doors. 

 

 

 

Emergency exit is interesting. 

 

A lot of people might not think of it but what happens if you or one of your crew are inside the boat with someone else doing the locks and the boat gets hooked up in a narrow lock and starts to go down by the starn. It can happen. 

 

You can't get out of side doors because of it being a narrow lock. You really do want front doors. 

 

 

I would like to see a forward facing or roof mounted escape hatch.