Boat batteries

[truckcab79]

Seems at short notice I need a couple of batteries.  
 

My new to me boat has three.  Oddly two connected as a starter battery and one for leisure power. I suspect they’ve done this due to the inherently difficult to start old Victor  diesel you’ll have seen in my other thread. 
 

Short term I’ve no desire to mess with this  at least to get me off and running.  I’m inclined to think I’ll replace two of them and connect them the same way.  Theres a random mix of batteries there currently.  Probably all knackered but who knows.  I’m thinking I’ll buy a couple of big starter batteries. Something like this. 
 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/car-batteries/exide/ea1000/

 

 I’ll likely later change it over so that I have one starter and two or three leisure batteries. I know that in theory leisure batteries are different but I also read countless times that many are just re-badged starter batteries.  
 

Tayna offer a 4 year guarantee anyway so I can’t really see anything wrong with this approach if I knacker them 
 

Anyone care to point out any issue with this?  

I’ll also replace the battery post connectors and cables using 50mm. When I buy new post connectors what M size bolt should I go for.  Bigger is better presumably. So M8 and matching battery cable crimp fittings?  
 

Thanks in advance.  

 

 

[blackrose]

Yes I'll point out an issue:

 

Why do you think you need new batteries? You say you don't know if the batteries you have are knackered or not. Isn't that something you should know before buying new batteries? Most people would want to know if their batteries were knackered before buying a new set, otherwise they might just be wasting their money.

 

How are the batteries being charged? If start and domestics are all being charged from the same source then choose the same battery type - flooded lead/acid, sealed, etc, because they may accept different maximum charge voltages, and make sure your charge source is set up correctly for the battery type.

Edited October 1, 2023 by blackrose

[truckcab79]

3 hours ago, blackrose said:

Yes I'll point out an issue:

 

Why do you think you need new batteries? You say you don't know if the batteries you have are knackered or not. Isn't that something you should know before buying new batteries? Most people would want to know if their batteries were knackered before buying a new set, otherwise they might just be wasting their money.

 

How are the batteries being charged? If start and domestics are all being charged from the same source then choose the same battery type - flooded lead/acid, sealed, etc, because they may accept different maximum charge voltages, and make sure your charge source is set up correctly for the battery type.

 

Purely because the mechanic at the marina said there were to be honest.  It’s an old boat and the batteries are clearly very old.  More so in the grand scheme of things a couple of hundred quid on new batteries is neither here nor there for the peace of mind. 
 

So let’s say that I can squeeze 4 batteries down there then if I bought 2 of those in that link for now, to use as starter batteries.  I could then buy another 2 later using either 2/2 or 1/3 as starter/boat power and it not cause any great issue? 
 

Charging currently is the new alternator. No idea what it’s rated at. Going forward it will be alternator and solar though as this boat will be weekend use I’m assuming based on nothing in particular that I’ll be able to set it up so that the solar is sufficient to top it all up while we’re away.  

Any thoughts a terminal post size?

Edited October 1, 2023 by truckcab79

[Tony Brooks]

If this helps, the cheaper lead acids, often sold as leisure or dual-purpose batteries, will make an OK ish job for both domestic and engine starting, whereas the engine start batteries you link to will not be very good in domestic use. In my view, one engine start battery of around 100Ah should be more than adequate to start your engine if everything else is in good order. As you are new to boating, so not spend more than you need on batteries because there is every chance you will wreck a few by over discharging and undercharging before you get the hang of looking after them.

[truckcab79]

Just now, Tony Brooks said:

If this helps, the cheaper lead acids, often sold as leisure or dual-purpose batteries, will make an OK ish job for both domestic and engine starting, whereas the engine start batteries you link to will not be very good in domestic use. In my view, one engine start battery of around 100Ah should be more than adequate to start your engine if everything else is in good order. As you are new to boating, so not spend more than you need on batteries because there is every chance you will wreck a few by over discharging and undercharging before you get the hang of looking after them.

Cheers.  Got a link to anything appropriate?    Pretty much everything I read said the opposite.  Basically that a starter battery will work as both but a leisure battery not so much.  
 

Im sure you’re right about the starting.  Just that the current ones are past their best.  
 

If you can point me toward something that 4 of which would be adequate. How I split them can be determined later once I know what the rest of the system looks like. Ideally 1 starter and 3 boat power.  It might be that only 2 can fit.  It has 3 in total current.  
 

Preferably on Tanya website for their service and guarantees,  I’d appreciate it. 

 

Also guidance on connectors and post size?

[Tony Brooks]

Try looking at the marine and leisure sections of the Tanya website, and for now I would not buy a long-established brand like Exide unless they are the cheapest. Especially as I think in the other thread you said the alternator is still not in place. Time for more expensive batteries once you have the battery monitoring, charging and discharging sorted out.

[dmr]

Do not let a guarantee sway your choice of battery, they are (at best) against "faulty parts and workmanship" and do not cover the normal ageing of the battery or abuse. A leisure battery on a full time liveaboard will last two years if you are lucky, more likely one, so a four year garantee is not real. They are probably rated for 300 cycles.

 

Getting the 'leccy right and keeping batteries charged is one of the hardest aspects of liveaboard boating, lots of stuff on this forum going back many years.

[Tracy D'arth]

Oh, so much to learn, so many tears, so much expense. This will run and run.

[Momac]

9 hours ago, truckcab79 said:

 

Tayna offer a 4 year guarantee anyway so I can’t really see anything wrong with this approach if I knacker them 
 

Anyone care to point out any issue with this?  

 

 

 

Good luck with that 

If you knacker the batteries do you really expect them to be replaced under guarantee? 

[GUMPY]

Are the two starter  batteries wired in series or in parallel?

 

[Tony Brooks]

9 hours ago, truckcab79 said:

Tayna offer a 4 year guarantee anyway so I can’t really see anything wrong with this approach if I knacker them 

 

I am sure the majority of long term members can. As aid, the guarantee is normally against manufacturing defect, not user abuse. The manufacturer will normally demand the old ones, so they can, if they wish, dismantle it. they can then see if they have been sulphated (insufficient charging) or have suffered plate shedding (excess cycle or over discharges). From many years of experience, there is a 98% chance that you will knacker them, especially if you have no means of monitoring them, and the manufacture will be able to see that.

[MtB]

10 hours ago, truckcab79 said:

Seems at short notice I need a couple of batteries.  

 

 

I'm surprised at you writing this post. As a car bloke have you never (like me, back in the day!) bought a new battery then had that go flat too, then found the reason was the alternator not charging?

 

I suggest your first step should be to measure the charge current before dashing off to the battery merchant. ESPECIALLY as persons of unnown ability have just replaced the alternator. 

 

Why did they do that? Flat batteries, possibly?

 

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

Taking an overall look at the OPs threads and photos, I feel his diagnosis of faulty batteries is very likely to be correct.

A faulty starter motor that seems to have been drawing a lot of current.

No alternator or disconnected alternator when first viewed.

Left standing for a long, but unknown time.

General look of neglect.

 

Probably sulphated to the point of being unusable.

 

If it is two 12V batteries in parallel, then that may also indicate a gross loss of capacity in the past (not if they are 2 x 6V in series)

 

 

[David Mack]

10 hours ago, truckcab79 said:

Oddly two connected as a starter battery and one for leisure power.

That engine of yours is pretty small, so it can't possibly need 2 start batteries (unless they are 6V batteries in series). It is normal for boats these days to have one start battery and anything from 2 to 6 or more domestic batteries, although 3-4 is probably most common.

More domestic batteries will allow you to run more appliances without the engine running, and to go for longer between charging. But remember that, except when using a shore supply, all the electricity you use has to be generated on board by some combination of your main engine, solar and a generator, so draining a big bank of domestic batteries means a correspondingly longer period of charging (much longer than you think) if you are not to knacker the batteries pretty quickly.

So as a newbie you are probably best having no more than 2 domestic batteries until you know how to look after them.

[magnetman]

There is a good battery supplier 5 minutes from P'n'S marine in Croxley. 

 

Denka. Not been there for a while but they used to have a trade counter and good prices for lead acid batteries. 

 

 

 

 

I see on their website they are also now doing LFP batteries and the Victron gear. 

 

They were always good value in there. 

 

If you take in your old lead batteries they will weigh them and knock the scrap value off your purchase. 

 

https://www.denkapower.com/

[MtB]

29 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Taking an overall look at the OPs threads and photos, I feel his diagnosis of faulty batteries is very likely to be correct.

A faulty starter motor that seems to have been drawing a lot of current.

No alternator or disconnected alternator when first viewed.

Left standing for a long, but unknown time.

General look of neglect.

 

Probably sulphated to the point of being unusable.

 

Yes all this seems highly probable, but to just spaff a load of money on new batteries without checking the new alternator is actually charging, seem somewhat foolhardy.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

11 hours ago, truckcab79 said:

Tayna offer a 4 year guarantee anyway so I can’t really see anything wrong with this approach if I knacker them 

 

Guarantee against 'poor workmanship' or 'faulty materials' - absolutely no guarantee against owner stupidity, letting them go flat, not rechaarging correctly, or allowing to become sulphated.

 

The owner can kill a battery stone dead within a few days - try claiming on the 4 year guarantedd

[magnetman]

I had a warranty replacement on 2 Rolls batteries once. They were the 4000 series and came with a 7 yar warranty. after about 18 months I had reduced one cell in each block to about 1.05 sg. Almost water! 

 

Emails sent to Rolls with test results and they arranged for me to receive 2 new batteries but I did pay the shipping. 

 

Warranty can work but you have to make things up a bit about how you used them. I didn't mention the 130 amp charger running off a generator. 

 

 

 

 

 

[dmr]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

I had a warranty replacement on 2 Rolls batteries once. They were the 4000 series and came with a 7 yar warranty. after about 18 months I had reduced one cell in each block to about 1.05 sg. Almost water! 

 

Emails sent to Rolls with test results and they arranged for me to receive 2 new batteries but I did pay the shipping. 

 

Warranty can work but you have to make things up a bit about how you used them. I didn't mention the 130 amp charger running off a generator. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, but buying a set of Rolls and having a failure is rather different to wearing out a set of cheapos.

Many years ago I got a set of cheapos from a car shop and they were no good, I expect they had sat in the shop for months and sulphated. The shop took them back to investigate and after several days of trying to charge them to raise the SG gave me a full refund.

I have heard that Halfords will also sometimes replace batteries if you kick up a fuss in front of other customers 😀

 

Expecting replacement batteries is a bit like complaining to the pub that your glass has got empty 😀.

[truckcab79]

6 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Oh, so much to learn, so many tears, so much expense. This will run and run.

So much bitterness. So much unhappiness with your own life.  In the absence of a ‘block’ button please feel free to refrain from commenting on my threads.   

4 hours ago, magnetman said:

There is a good battery supplier 5 minutes from P'n'S marine in Croxley. 

 

Denka. Not been there for a while but they used to have a trade counter and good prices for lead acid batteries. 

 

 

 

 

I see on their website they are also now doing LFP batteries and the Victron gear. 

 

They were always good value in there. 

 

If you take in your old lead batteries they will weigh them and knock the scrap value off your purchase. 

 

https://www.denkapower.com/

Thank you for your always helpful comments. Genuinely appreciated.  

1 hour ago, dmr said:

 

Yes, but buying a set of Rolls and having a failure is rather different to wearing out a set of cheapos.

Many years ago I got a set of cheapos from a car shop and they were no good, I expect they had sat in the shop for months and sulphated. The shop took them back to investigate and after several days of trying to charge them to raise the SG gave me a full refund.

I have heard that Halfords will also sometimes replace batteries if you kick up a fuss in front of other customers 😀

 

Expecting replacement batteries is a bit like complaining to the pub that your glass has got empty 😀.

 

Prior to my current career I spent 27 years as a retail director.   Tayna will have an agreement with suppliers to automatically refund a % of annual orders to cover returns.  Nobody on that scale is testing returns so long as they come back with proof of purchase within the specified period.  Just isn’t worth the time.   Your local motor factor if you can find one these days is a different story.  Buy via Amazon and they refund you without even asking the supplier for an opinion.   
 

 

 

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Guarantee against 'poor workmanship' or 'faulty materials' - absolutely no guarantee against owner stupidity, letting them go flat, not rechaarging correctly, or allowing to become sulphated.

 

The owner can kill a battery stone dead within a few days - try claiming on the 4 year guarantedd

See above. Buy sensibly and you can cover  yourself.  Law entirely on the consumers side.  I’ve tried to fight customers on a number of occasions in court.  Lost every time.  😂

4 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Yes all this seems highly probable, but to just spaff a load of money on new batteries without checking the new alternator is actually charging, seem somewhat foolhardy.

 

 

It’s charging.  No idea whether it’s sufficiently rated for the job it’ll need to do going forward but it’s charging fine.  

[Tracy D'arth]

18 minutes ago, truckcab79 said:

So much bitterness. So much unhappiness with your own life.  In the absence of a ‘block’ button please feel free to refrain from commenting on my threads.   

Thank you for your always helpful comments. Genuinely appreciated.  

 

Not bitter, very happy with what is left of my life. There is an ignore button.

You could regret this later when you are in the mire, which you will be.  I have seen it all before, many times. Man buys boat, turns out to be a money pit, man gets disillusioned with canal life, sells boat at a huge loss and disappears, older and wiser but always poorer.

Glad to oblige you but I will keep watch, I like a good laugh now and again, keeps me happy!

[truckcab79]

Soooooo……all of the above opinion aside does anyone actually know the answer to my original questions? 
 

Ignoring the fact that I might shorten their lifespan and ignoring any concerns you may have about how I choose to spend MY money I gather that there’s isn’t an issue. 
 

If anyone can advise on the best connectors and post sizes that would be helpful. 
 

The debate on how many batteries it SHOULD take to start it is largely irrelevant at this stage.  When you’re fault-finding or don’t know what you have then the rule is that you change nothing, then change one thing at a time to gauge the effect.  
 

 

Therefore the correct approach on an engine that starts well as it stands is to replace the two very likely poor condition batteries with two know good ones, wired in exactly the same way. ‘Right’ or ‘wrong’ the  known factor is that it currently works.  
 

 

I do find it funny that some of the comments on my other threads about the overall state of the boat I’ve bought are now joined by the same participants looking at two knackered old mismatched batteries and then thinking ‘No. They look perfect.  You want to keep those you spendthrift’.  😂😂
 

Once I’ve swapped in known good  batteries I can reliably get to my new marina.  At which point I can re-wire it any way I choose.  
 

As I said before I do wonder how many of you have ever actually done any work on your own boats.  Care to share your work?   
 

 

 

Just now, Tracy D'arth said:

Not bitter, very happy with what is left of my life. There is an ignore button.

You could regret this later when you are in the mire, which you will be.  I have seen it all before, many times. Man buys boat, turns out to be a money pit, man gets disillusioned with canal life, sells boat at a huge loss and disappears, older and wiser but always poorer.

Glad to oblige you but I will keep watch, I like a good laugh now and again, keeps me happy!

👍. Thanks for the tip.  Will do my best to find it this time just in case you’re tempted. 😂

If someone could tell me where the ignore button is I’d be grateful. Asking for a friend.  😂

[Tracy D'arth]

2 minutes ago, truckcab79 said:

Soooooo……all of the above opinion aside does anyone actually know the answer to my original questions? 
 

Ignoring the fact that I might shorten their lifespan and ignoring any concerns you may have about how I choose to spend MY money I gather that there’s isn’t an issue. 
 

If anyone can advise on the best connectors and post sizes that would be helpful. 
 

The debate on how many batteries it SHOULD take to start it is largely irrelevant at this stage.  When you’re fault-finding or don’t know what you have then the rule is that you change nothing, then change one thing at a time to gauge the effect.  
 

 

Therefore the correct approach on an engine that starts well as it stands is to replace the two very likely poor condition batteries with two know good ones, wired in exactly the same way. ‘Right’ or ‘wrong’ the  known factor is that it currently works.  
 

 

I do find it funny that some of the comments on my other threads about the overall state of the boat I’ve bought are now joined by the same participants looking at two knackered old mismatched batteries and then thinking ‘No. They look perfect.  You want to keep those you spendthrift’.  😂😂
 

Once I’ve swapped in known good  batteries I can reliably get to my new marina.  At which point I can re-wire it any way I choose.  
 

As I said before I do wonder how many of you have ever actually done any work on your own boats.  Care to share your work?   
 

 

 

👍. Thanks for the tip.  Will do my best to find it this time just in case you’re tempted. 😂

😂  

[dmr]

25 minutes ago, truckcab79 said:

So much bitterness. So much unhappiness with your own life.  In the absence of a ‘block’ button please feel free to refrain from commenting on my threads.   

Thank you for your always helpful comments. Genuinely appreciated.  

 

Prior to my current career I spent 27 years as a retail director.   Tayna will have an agreement with suppliers to automatically refund a % of annual orders to cover returns.  Nobody on that scale is testing returns so long as they come back with proof of purchase within the specified period.  Just isn’t worth the time.   Your local motor factor if you can find one these days is a different story.  Buy via Amazon and they refund you without even asking the supplier for an opinion.   
 

 

 

See above. Buy sensibly and you can cover  yourself.  Law entirely on the consumers side.  I’ve tried to fight customers on a number of occasions in court.  Lost every time.  😂

It’s charging.  No idea whether it’s sufficiently rated for the job it’ll need to do going forward but it’s charging fine.  

 

There was an infamous/notorious company called Elecsol who sold slightly expensive batteries with a 5 years guarantee. They had a good reputation based on a very good review in a caravan magazine though it later transpired that their "testing" involved only reading the publicity blurb. A lot of boaters were very impressed with the 5 year guarantee and purchased these batteries.  When trying to return them under guarantee the company generally did not answer the phone. When they did answer they created various hurdles to overcome, if the boater persisted they were simply told to F*** Off.

 

Anyway thanks for the info, I will now buy my beer from Amazon and complain when the bottles get empty 😀

 

 

[magnetman]

Elecsol was hilarious.