Licences

[magnetman]

I doubt they will hit hard. Probably needs doing but it may be outside of the remit. 

 

I think in some ways CRT behaving unreasonably could be quite a good move. 

[Cheshire cat]

Putting aside batteries and ICE I think cars will die because of all the touch screen tech that's being introduced. That's far more likely to die before the drivetrain. I can't see it being cheap to replace. 

 

Going back to licences they've said inflation plus so I'm expecting 15% as a starting point. We shall see.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

35 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Anyone up for predicting what rates they will announce? 

 

(Not what each of us thinks they ought to charge, but what we think they actually will announce. I think they will bottle it and announce some pretty mild rises in fees, probably tapered in over several years.)

Agree, hopefully it’ll not cause too many problems for people and not cause boaters to argue with each other on the canals.

Edited September 26, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Momac]

11 minutes ago, MtB said:

I think they will bottle it and announce some pretty mild rises in fees, probably tapered in over several years.

As they have already with the existing widebeam supplement  which was phased in over a couple or three years.

 

But it does seem clear that all licenses will be  increasing extra over inflation , so that seems likely to be be at least 10% increase from April.

 

[HenryFreeman]

57 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Anyone up for predicting what rates they will announce? 

 

(Not what each of us thinks they ought to charge, but what we think they actually will announce. I think they will bottle it and announce some pretty mild rises in fees, probably tapered in over several years.)

 

I'm reckoning on somewhere between a 10 and 15% increase to start with. I don't think they could realistically increase them by much more than that.

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, HenryFreeman said:

 

I'm reckoning on somewhere between a 10 and 15% increase to start with. I don't think they could realistically increase them by much more than that.

 

10% barely covers inflation. I think they'll announce 15% compounded annually for five years then another review.

 

Plus a switch of some sort to charging by deck area, probably tapered in somehow. 

 

Plus something like a different scale of charges for no home mooring. Trivially higher to start with, but establishing the principle of charging a higher rate for CCers, which will be ramped up more than HMers in years to come.

[IanD]

19 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

10% barely covers inflation. I think they'll announce 15% compounded annually for five years then another review.

 

Plus a switch of some sort to charging by deck area, probably tapered in somehow. 

 

Plus something like a different scale of charges for no home mooring. Trivially higher to start with, but establishing the principle of charging a higher rate for CCers, which will be ramped up more than HMers in years to come.

 

That sounds more likely than a lot of what has been suggested. CART are desperate to raise more money, and the consultation results showed that most boaters are in favour of increased fees for widebeams and CCers -- and yes that's because they're both a minority (about 20%?) of boaters, so the majority (about 80% in each case?) get to decide who pays what.

 

Like democratic elections or a certain referendum, but with a *far* bigger majority...

[Momac]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

10% barely covers inflation. I think they'll announce 15% compounded annually for five years then another review.

That should  kill off boating on the canals nicely 

 

[peterboat]

4 hours ago, JungleJames said:

Trouble is, the jury is still out regards electric cars and CO2 savings.

I've heard an electric vehicle doesn't break even CO2 wise until you have driven many many thousands of miles.

 

Those that replace their vehicle every 3yrs will actually be increasing their CO2 output if they drive electric.

It isn't just the tail pipe as you know.

 

 

Facebook by any chance? Any real study shows them to break even quickly and save many tons of CO2.

The batteries are recyclable first instance is repurposed second full recycling. ICE however is dirty from the moment its built nothing it burns is clean unlike electric from wind, solar or hydro. 

[magnetman]

Licence for a 55ft nb around £1200. 

 

Would a extra £180 really stop people boating? 

[HenryFreeman]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Licence for a 55ft nb around £1200. 

 

Would a extra £180 really stop people boating? 

 

Over the course of a year, an extra £15 quid a month on to your direct debit? Can't imagine so. Not I, anyway.

[peterboat]

3 hours ago, JungleJames said:

The cars aren't the problem.

 

It's batteries v engines.

I'm not convinced batteries can outlast an engine. 

I shall use Miss Google, but I'm going to get a mixture of answers.

 

What we reckon, 10yrs lifespan for batteries? 15?

They aren't going to out last an engine, but if you are lucky, the battery may start failing about the time the car body starts rusting. 

 

Batteries are a poor replacement for the internal combustion engine, but with a bit of luck, they may be adequate for the majority of people.

 

However, recycling could be the problem in the future. Not a definite, but there is more chance of it being a problem compared to a virtually all metal engine.

 

One things for sure, none of us here really know for definite, and I refuse to call battery cars a green alternative because there are still too many unknowns.

 

All those expensive materials and you think they go to landfill?

Aa for repairing batteries it happens all the time.e why wouldn't it? They are easier to remove than most modern engines and it's a sealed box with battery modules. 

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Licence for a 55ft nb around £1200. 

 

Would a extra £180 really stop people boating? 

 

Very few, when you consider what the typical total yearly cost of boating is. It's like when there's a government change or a tax increase (especially for the rich), people warn that they'll leave the country in droves but it's an empty threat that never really happens.

 

Even a £1000 increase is probably typically around 20% of total annual boating cost going by various estimates on here, and lots of research into price increases has shown that this kind of increase causes grumbling but not wholesale exit from a market -- you need something like a 50% increase to get many people to seriously consider leaving and changing their lifestyle.

 

Various people have already expressed the view that the license fee is cheap for what you get and should be increased, so I'm not going to invite a shower of sh*t by saying this... 😉

Edited September 26, 2023 by IanD

[Momac]

10 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Licence for a 55ft nb around £1200. 

 

Would a extra £180 really stop people boating? 

15% compounded over 5 years is double the original sum

[IanD]

44 minutes ago, MartynG said:

15% compounded over 5 years is double the original sum

Of course if inflation also averages 5% the real cost rise is 10% per year, which is a 60% increase... 😉

[sigsegv]

4 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Anyone up for predicting what rates they will announce? 

 

(Not what each of us thinks they ought to charge, but what we think they actually will announce. I think they will bottle it and announce some pretty mild rises in fees, probably tapered in over several years.)

A chap on the canal by middlewich claimed he'd heard from someone NBTA-affiliated that they'd heard something in the realm of 30% for CC surcharge but I suspect this is baseless speculation

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

Very few, when you consider what the typical total yearly cost of boating is. It's like when there's a government change or a tax increase (especially for the rich), people warn that they'll leave the country in droves but it's an empty threat that never really happens.

 

Even a £1000 increase is probably typically around 20% of total annual boating cost going by various estimates on here, and lots of research into price increases has shown that this kind of increase causes grumbling but not wholesale exit from a market -- you need something like a 50% increase to get many people to seriously consider leaving and changing their lifestyle.

 

Various people have already expressed the view that the license fee is cheap for what you get and should be increased, so I'm not going to invite a shower of sh*t by saying this... 😉

Trouble with saying the licence fee is cheap for what you get is that, while it may just possibly be true (though I don't think it is, myself, taking into consideration the impossibility of cruise or holiday planning currently) it's only one factor in the boating costs , and all the others are going up by far more than inflation, too. Repairs, gas, diesel, safety cert, blacking all making the actual cost rises huge.

And you always come back to the fact that due to the lack of maintenance and oversight, boaters holidays are ruined year after year, long term cruises are hopeless, hire boats end up scattered all over the system and most of the nicest moorings are taken up by long term dumpers. So the attractiveness of the whole lifestyle, be it cruising or holidaying, is going down the tubes, and that's not the fault of those ancillary costs, but of CRT. I'd happily pay them another grand if it meant I got my four long cruises a year in. Another grand when I don't manage to complete a single one isn't good value. For the majority of hobby owners, who maybe get one chance a year at a cruise, it's a sheer waste of money.

[Tonka]

9 minutes ago, sigsegv said:

A chap on the canal by middlewich claimed he'd heard from someone NBTA-affiliated that they'd heard something in the realm of 30% for CC surcharge but I suspect this is baseless speculation

spread that as a rumour. CRT then say it will be 25% and everyone is happy because it was less then 30%

[Arthur Marshall]

14 minutes ago, sigsegv said:

A chap on the canal by middlewich claimed he'd heard from someone NBTA-affiliated that they'd heard something in the realm of 30% for CC surcharge but I suspect this is baseless speculation

Mooring fee (not rent) is around 80% of the licence fee, sometimes a lot more. If its based on that, 30% would be a win for the CCers.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Arthur Marshall

[magnetman]

My mooring fee is 17 times the licence fee. 

 

I'm not typical but yes living in London can be costly ! 

 

I wonder if in reality it is time the CRT considered some kind of regional tiered licensing system. They have the data about where boats are via the tracking spotters so it should not be that difficult to work out a system based on demand and costs. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

I wonder if in reality it is time the CRT considered some kind of regional tiered licensing system. They have the data about where boats are via the tracking spotters so it should not be that difficult to work out a system based on demand and costs. 

 

 

I proposed this (and discussed it with Nigel Moore) and despite the naysayers - yes, it could easily and legally be done.

[magnetman]

 

 

Costs being costs of alternative accomodation. 

 

A canal boat is accommodation no matter how it is used for holiday or residential it is still accommodation. 

 

If the CRT can't get this money then someone else will do so by using BNB webshites and the like. 

 

CRT need to be on the ball about their assets. 

 

 

[Momac]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Of course if inflation also averages 5% the real cost rise is 10% per year, which is a 60% increase... 😉

5% inflation compounded over 5 years is 28%

So comparing that with 15% increase over 5 years  the real increase would be 72% 

 

[IanD]

1 minute ago, MartynG said:

5% inflation compounded over 5 years is 28%

So comparing that with 15% increase over 5 years  the real increase would be 72% 

 

 

Not how maths works. 15% numerical cost increase when inflation is 5% is 9.5% increase per year in real terms, which is 57.6% over 5 years if you want to be exact... 😉

[PCSB]

I wouldn't be surprised if they don't go for a fixed percentage. Possibly something along the lines of say 15% across the board this year with an ongoing above inflation rise that won't be less than say 5% above inflation but could (read would) be more for the next 5 years. I suspect a 20% surcharge for CC'ers, again increasing year on year and similar for wide beans with the door left open for area charging. Whilst this may be more of an admin headache, it leaves the door open for greater flexibily, i.e. greater rises in the future.